A Safe Thread to Complain About PBR

[Cynite00]

38 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Be first to market all you like, a lot of us won't buy it and will mock the people who do for the white textures

I will assume you are using "YOU" in a general sense, and not addressing me directly - if so, you'd have to read my post again.

34 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

When all things get to where PBR is something you have to have most of my friends will sadly sign off sl. I will therefore join them as I am here to socialise not to look at pretty things. Should PBR become something you absolutely need to run then I suspect there will be a huge dip in concurrency

Related to both these posts, I'm hoping a good solution to bridge the gap between those currently having trouble with PBR viewers, to be able to have a fallback texture - that which is similar to what exists now - a baked diffuse texture.

During BP phase, many many users had Advanced Lighting Model turned off, so they could not even see or enjoy BP texture sets anyway, so many creators (even top ones) simply shipped their products with default baked diffuse textures anyway.

I'm hoping the end result will be PBR + baked diffuse (no normals or spec included), and so those on current or lower end rigs will still be able to enjoy SL. I look around and I see many items in SL that look good as is, with no PBR or BP on them at all anyway.

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

A little warmer is to be expected. 

It would be magic, if we asked our computers to do more work without using more resources! (One of the outputs of "work" is heat.)

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What if viewer performance is improved to the point that PBR is at worst a slight dip in FPS, or maybe (as LL seems to be promising) even better than pre-PBR viewers?

That's the focus of efforts right now by LL in cooperation with the FS team.

 

I hope people believe it when they see it.

[Cynite00]

25 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Even with PBR disabled Cool VL viewer runs slightly hotter for me then the pre-PBR Catznip and Kristen's viewer. I've tried the PBR Alchemy viewer, though. I liked the poser and do think it presented the world in a gorgeous way. But it does run a little warmer than a non PBR viewer. Ironically, I think even the PBR Alchemy viewer runs better then the non-PBR FIrestorm, but this is just my opinion, and no I really can't prove it. I think Henri is the dev that cares the most about trying to include the low-end user for as long as possible and therefor consider Cool VL to be very, very important going forward.

I would very much like you to have an SL where PBR exists for when and if you can upgrade to see its beauty, but for now be able to see a very optimized baked-texture that can run much faster on your system.

11 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I believe PBR as a absolute requirement could cause this to happen.

I predict the mass adoption of 2k textures will slowly squeeze ppl out.

If in a marketplace redesign, LL included the specs for the asset, including tri counts, amount of materials used and the size of materials (could just be a total...) then end users could decide to purchase the most optimized assets FIRST, and encourage creators to 'get good' at serving SL with optimized stuff in the first place.

Right now, when any creator is making optimized and good looking stuff, with minimal materials and appropriate texture sizes (texel density), and optimizing their mesh for virtual worlds - and including proper LODs - all that extra work is not considered or recognized by the end user.

This would improve SL significantly. No changes needed - just add asset stats to the product page and let the end user decide. We know low LI is very important to people - so much so that many creators cheat on their assets to get a low Li score...

Then we could truly see "Who is a great asset to the creator community and SL" truly, and not just because they say so

Edited September 15 by Cynite00

[Charlotte Bartlett]

21 minutes ago, Cynite00 said:

I will assume you are using "YOU" in a general sense, and not addressing me directly - if so, you'd have to read my post again.

Related to both these posts, I'm hoping a good solution to bridge the gap between those currently having trouble with PBR viewers, to be able to have a fallback texture - that which is similar to what exists now - a baked diffuse texture.

During BP phase, many many users had Advanced Lighting Model turned off, so they could not even see or enjoy BP texture sets anyway, so many creators (even top ones) simply shipped their products with default baked diffuse textures anyway.

I'm hoping the end result will be PBR + baked diffuse (no normals or spec included), and so those on current or lower end rigs will still be able to enjoy SL. I look around and I see many items in SL that look good as is, with no PBR or BP on them at all anyway.

I am hoping the opposite.  That's the dual pipeline we need to get away from - it's not a sustainable workflow once the 3 releases are through and non PBR is demised (bar the off label viewers that will remain).  

I think Henri's solution of those who can't use  on label viewers for 2025, those viewers just show the base (diffuse) from the PBR (no baking).   They don't then get all white, and get color/basic texture.   I would hope the code Henri created would then be incorporated into the off label viewers that are not following the 3 release rule.  As mentioned before Firestorm et al should then publish metrics on number of unique users monthly on the off label viewer so we genuinely see how many people are using the workaround from 2025 onwards.  We are flying blind as creators on which viewers are used.  My last survey though has 71% adoption on PBR for my customers.

Also would love to have that information on marketplace for mesh assets also time of upload, whether the LODs are auto generated or custom for rezzables etc.

LL told us that once they finished the region migration to "the cloud" they would be able to refocus on marketplace.  Sadly that has never happened. 

Edited September 15 by Charlotte Bartlett

[WeFlossDaily]

3 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I am hoping the opposite.  That's the dual pipeline we need to get away from - it's not a sustainable workflow once the 3 releases are through and non PBR is demised (bar the off label viewers that will remain).  

I think Henri's solution of those who can't use  on label viewers for 2025, those viewers just show the base (diffuse) from the PBR (no baking).   They don't then get all white, and get color/basic texture.   I would hope the code Henri created would then be incorporated into the off label viewers that are not following the 3 release rule.  As mentioned before Firestorm et al should then publish metrics on number of unique users monthly on the off label viewer so we genuinely see how many people are using the workaround from 2025 onwards.

What is an off-label viewer?

[Cynite00]

2 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I am hoping the opposite.  That's the dual pipeline we need to get away from - it's not a sustainable workflow once the 3 releases are through and non PBR is demised (bar the off label viewers that will remain).  

I think Henri's solution of those who can't use  on label viewers for 2025, those viewers just show the base (diffuse) from the PBR (no baking).   They don't then get all white, and get color/basic texture.   I would hope the code Henri created would then be incorporated into the off label viewers that are not following the 3 release rule.  As mentioned before Firestorm et al should then publish metrics on number of unique users monthly on the off label viewer so we genuinely see how many people are using the workaround from 2025 onwards.

I think you actually agree with me, but you want to go straight PBR, no 'backup texture', but just display the color texture?

The reason I wanted at least to continue with the baked, is because it is VERY easy to make (eg. SP -> 2d View) in a pinch, but yeah it would require an extra slot.

If it's PBR only, and default to the color, all the user will see is the color and will look drab anyway. What's worse. A solid white texture that 'encourages' them to get a PBR viewer, or an ugly "all I see is brown wood with no details" complaints on your product page and dms again (similar to BP - ALM)

Whatever the outcome, I want it to be completed sooner than later, as I really don't want to waste energy making stuff mid-term.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

Just now, WeFlossDaily said:

What is an off-label viewer?

Basically the viewers that will no longer be maintained but will workaround the 3 release policy with Firestorm.

A small section from their website - there is more there if helpful to read.

"Firestorm non-PBR forever (but in silence)

OK, let’s cut to the chase: Firestorm version 6.6.17 (the last pre-PBR version) will remain available “forever.”

I am pleased to announce that, as part of a more comprehensive review of the so-called “three-release policy”, we are going to ensure that the 6.6.17 release is never blocked; we will also cease blocking in general in the short term pending a longer-term review to decide how we manage our ability to give our users support.

I hope that this will come as a relief to those of you who have been stressed and worried about potentially losing access to Second Life.

There will be no deadline to update now; instead, the pre-PBR viewer experience will be left to naturally decline."

[Charlotte Bartlett]

10 minutes ago, Cynite00 said:

I think you actually agree with me, but you want to go straight PBR, no 'backup texture', but just display the color texture?

The reason I wanted at least to continue with the baked, is because it is VERY easy to make (eg. SP -> 2d View) in a pinch, but yeah it would require an extra slot.

If it's PBR only, and default to the color, all the user will see is the color and will look drab anyway. What's worse. A solid white texture that 'encourages' them to get a PBR viewer, or an ugly "all I see is brown wood with no details" complaints on your product page and dms again (similar to BP - ALM)

Whatever the outcome, I want it to be completed sooner than later, as I really don't want to waste energy making stuff mid-term.

We agree but disagree LOL.

You say that it's easy, but it's actually not for large rezzables as you are now baking out in SP, uploading, appending, then replacing the PBR slots - then you get into revisions and whatnot.   

This work (and I do this right now) is worth it for customers until we cycle out of non PBR viewers.
But it's not worth it if there are 10 people left on the Firestorm old viewer (what I call off label)  in a year's time.  
Now if it's 10,000 I'll continue to dual pipeline.

Henri's code if you look at his posts on this are the right way forward from 2025 unless the volume is huge on the off label viewer Firestorm is providing.    That also will decline naturally per their own post (extract above) as as things progress.   

Edited September 15 by Charlotte Bartlett

[WeFlossDaily]

13 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Basically the viewers that will no longer be maintained but will workaround the 3 release policy with Firestorm.

Sounds like a prime candidate for a viewer fork.

Edited September 15 by WeFlossDaily
spelling

[WeFlossDaily]

Would retaining a 128 x 128 fallback texture on mainland terrain really be that big of a deal?

[Charlotte Bartlett]

36 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I hope people believe it when they see it.

I have been running intensive comparison tests with Second Life Release 7.1.10.10800445603 (64bit).  Now I am finally seeing major improvements in its ability to consume complex scenes.   I am maxing it out on purpose and it's holding at a decent FPS and for a jape I threw 40 x 2048 full PBR textures on to some really complicated mesh (on purpose uploaded with all high LODS to really make it painful) to see if I could melt the region.    It stood up to it well and FPS didn't dip below 20 on maxed out everything.

I am seeing more banding (first aligned to WIFI and ping) but on hardwire that came under control but there is still something a little wonky on a static scene where it "revs" up then seems to not the cache completely effectively.   I am not technical so just using statistics... to run comparisons.

I also tested on the hallway of mirrors effect with the above, and surprisingly didn't get much more heat from it.
I am using an MacBook Pro M1 so my experience will be somewhat unique as we are a minority in user base I believe.
 

[AtomicShrink]

PBR is a fresh mess of hell and it seems SL doesn't give a damn about Mac users. 

Is it the end for Mac users? 

I don't need, nor do I want to buy a PC, so anyone throwing that in the ring, please don't.

If there are real solutions, please let me know.

IF SL intends to resolve this issue, please let me know. 

 

[KanryDrago]

7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What if viewer performance is improved to the point that PBR is at worst a slight dip in FPS, or maybe (as LL seems to be promising) even better than pre-PBR viewers?

That's the focus of efforts right now by LL in cooperation with the FS team.

 

If they manage that so it works fine on the older pc's that most of my friends have then there wouldn't be a problem, however lets just say I have little confidence they will. If they don't however I predict for every person that thinks "sigh time to upgrade my pc" there will be a greater number that thinks "sigh time to find something else to do"

[Ico Kiyori]

This all you need to know.

Straight up from the official website. Baffled to see that it took LL around 10 years, to start finally listening to feedbacks of theirs users, because they're losing "numbers" and active users.

PBR isn't bad. It's poorly implemented, and overall not suited for the overall performance of the viewer. I am glad they're working hard on performances, and do try theirs best to make PBR perform better, but it should have been done way earlier.

 

[Henri Beauchamp]

7 hours ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Even with PBR disabled Cool VL viewer runs slightly hotter for me

It runs hotter because it runs faster... Use its smart frame rate limiter (Preferences floater, Cool features tab, Misc. sub-tab): it will make your PC run Cool ©️®️™️ and quiet, while also using the ”free time” between frames to rez things faster than with limiter off !

[WeFlossDaily]

Just now, Henri Beauchamp said:

It runs hotter because it runs faster... Use its smart frame rate limiter (Preferences floater, Cool features tab, Misc. sub-tab): it will make your PC run Cool ©️®️™️ and quiet, while also using the ”free time” between frames to rez things faster than with limiter off !

I do like being able to lock it in at 30 FPS. It holds the frame-rate very well.

Just of curiosity . . .

Is it be possible to slowdown the render-speed to reduce the load on my iGPU. Or would that be impossible? Or largely pointless?

[Evangeline Arcadia]

On 8/30/2024 at 3:10 AM, Cynite00 said:

PBR is not the issue. Many of you will have already seen PBR used on other platforms, and looking beautiful and performing well. This is a LL-implementation of PBR issue.

The other issues are increased workloads for creators, also a higher skill level to not only properly create PBR materials, but even BP materials, which were mostly unused anyway up to this point since so many users had ALM turned off - and would complain about creator's products that "actually did it correctly".

So to have PBR + a fallback to BP is kind of hilarious, as now creators who only used baked textures on the norm, or sim owners who would default to baked textures to save bandwidth not displaying normals and specs - might have issues because BP was never their standard to start with. This kind of thing is glossed over all the time in these forums, lost in all the showboating and tech-speak.

Idealy you would create your product with PBR textures, upload them and they work out of the box - and they do (everywhere else).

It's not machine problems, because people can run PBR and shaders on all sorts of computers - again this is LL-specific. What software have you actually had to white-list in order for your antivirus to not thrash your machine trying to use it. When even a simple game like Minecraft is now letting people run PBR and advanced fancy shaders on 'potato' computers because some skilled programmers created optimization mods to run them.

The more layers of difficulty or requirements that LL needs to run this is going to be the problem. The custom workflows and 'workarounds' (that tend to stay that way over time) is enough to discourage many from continuing, or even starting in the first place.

To complain about PBR is very weird, when the complaints should more accurately focus on LL's implementation of it. PBR was provided initially by Pixar/Disney to create a streamlined and easy workflow for 3D artists to work with, it's goal not actually being 'realism' but easily understandable and an accessible 'close enough' representation of light and reflections.

This is not what will draw people into SL anyway. PBR and 'fancy graphics' are already shoulder-shruggingly common and the addition of this will be 'like, duh, it should look nice' and then will be quickly assumed as default - and then we're back to square one - how do we engage and keep new users.

I totally agree with this. I used to create PBR textures for 3D model assets using industry standard software as a part-time gig, on a 8 year old Windows 10 desktop computer (at the time). It's not PBR, it's the implementation.

It's unfortuante that people are missing out on the benefits of PBR because of that. PBR gives real word material behaviour, replicating how light interacts with surface, hence being able to have mirrors, and more realistic looking textures - I would point out for those who don't like realism that equally, if you know how to work with PBR,  you could also create 'unrealistic' textures if you want to do that too.  PBR doesn't limit your creative vision.

In my personal opinion, considering the wonderful creativiy of users inworld, PBR implemented better would be a bonus to how this wonderful place can be experienced. So I think this would really enhance SL.

However, I'm certainly not PBR in my viewer (FS) at the moment because of the implementation (and this is using a new gaming computer, not my old desktop), and have no intention of doing so until the implementation is improved.

Sadly the roll-out I think has done the opposite of what should have happened, and it annoys me that it has given some users a bad opinion of what PBR is and can do.  Ideally, like Cynite says it should work out of the box, instead it's caused frustration and a negative view of PBR, when PBR itself isn't the problem. 

SL is a virtual world, so how how it looks is a key part of that. I don't think PBR is something that LL could indefinately ignore, as it is widely used standard now, so I do think it's was only  a matter of time before  LL needed to consider introducing it. Eventually it would need to be adopted or SL look outdated which probably wouldn't attract new users and keep SL alive (granted there are other factors for attracting new users too). I don't personally think it looks 'outdated' now, but will eventually.

Edited September 15 by Evangeline Arcadia

[Henri Beauchamp]

31 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Is it be possible to slowdown the render-speed to reduce the load on my iGPU.

This is exactly what the frame limiter is doing...

However, the ”smart” algorithm is using more CPU time than what you would get by enabling VSync instead, because it uses the ”free time” on the CPU side to perform additional runs of ancillary tasks that are normally performed only once per frame (thus the faster rezzing), meaning the CPU side is not running as cool as it would with VSync (where the CPU would just be idling, waiting for the GPU glFinish() call to return when the monitor frame is ready to change).

Since the iGPU shares the same package (and often the same chip/tile) as the CPU, it might seem to run ”hotter” too, but this is just the CPU heat getting to it.

I could add an option to ”dumbify” the frame rate limiter and just make it sleep the CPU (like other TPVs are doing), but this would be a regression rather than an improvement, for little to no real benefit (my smart limiter does sleep the CPU too, when all ancillary tasks have been completed; in fact, it sleeps 1ms between each ancillary tasks additional run, then the remaining free time when there is nothing to do any more).

[WeFlossDaily]

3 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

This is exactly what the frame limiter is doing...

However, the ”smart” algorithm is using more CPU time than what you would get by enabling VSync instead, because it uses the ”free time” on the CPU side to perform additional runs of ancillary tasks that are normally performed only once per frame (thus the faster rezzing), meaning the CPU side is not running as cool as it would with VSync (where the CPU would just be idling, waiting for the GPU glFinish() call to return when the monitor frame is ready to change).

Since the iGPU shares the same package (and often the same chip/tile) as the CPU, it might seem to run ”hotter” too, but this is just the CPU heat getting to it.

I could add an option to ”dumbify” the frame rate limiter and just make it sleep the CPU (like other TPVs are doing), but this would be a regression rather than an improvement, for little to no real benefit (my smart limiter does sleep the CPU too, when all ancillary tasks have been completed; in fact, it sleeps 1ms between each ancillary tasks additional run, then the remaining free time when there is nothing to do any more).

I appreciate your explanation, although I must admit, I can mostly follow this only at a sort of basic level. I do really like the frame limiter, though. I feel like it give me way more control than the the way some of the other TPVs have implemented a sort of weird cap on the minimum FPS, which does me no good at all, since I'm usually trying to figure out ways to half-cripple the viewer so that I be in SL.

I guess I need to keep on experimenting. Thank you igen for all the work you've put into your viewer. =]

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

If they manage that so it works fine on the older pc's that most of my friends have then there wouldn't be a problem, however lets just say I have little confidence they will. If they don't however I predict for every person that thinks "sigh time to upgrade my pc" there will be a greater number that thinks "sigh time to find something else to do"

Icor has posted LL's update on the new viewer versions just below your post. The outlook is pretty good, I think -- and because LL is working directly in cooperation with FS, we'll start to see those same performance improvements in that viewer too.

A possible caveat, however: the introduction of deferred rendering (replacing ALM, which we used to use) has made it very clear that different kinds of hardware handle the new system much better than others: some with newer computers actually found that the addition of PBR made their machines run faster. So, what that means is that these performance improvements are not necessarily going to impact every computer the same way. I trust that, this time around, LL is actually testing on older hardware, but really old or weak computers (for instance, laptops with integrated GPUs?) might, possibly, not see the same benefits.

I DO think, though, that this is going to vastly improve the situation for a great many people who are now having problems.

[WeFlossDaily]

24 minutes ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

I don't think PBR is something that LL could indefinately ignore, as it is widely used standard now

I've made alot of noise about how I believe this is group think, and I'm not trying to make any sort of vicious attack or anything, I just kind of want to use this as a primer for a weird experiment I just tried.

I can find examples of games that use PBR in other forums. But I can't find a definitive list using Google. So I asked Chat GPT to set the record straight:

how many games use pbr

Quote

Physically Based Rendering (PBR) is a popular technique used in many modern video games to create realistic lighting and materials. It’s hard to pinpoint an exact number, but pretty much any game released in the past decade, especially those using advanced engines like Unreal Engine 4/5, Unity, or CryEngine, is likely to use PBR to some extent. Games like "The Witcher 3," "Red Dead Redemption 2," "Cyberpunk 2077," and even recent indie titles leverage PBR to achieve their high levels of visual fidelity. The trend towards PBR is strong because it helps create more consistent and realistic visuals across different lighting conditions.

can you give me an estimate

Quote

It’s tough to give a precise estimate since the number of games using PBR is continually growing. However, as of 2024, you could reasonably estimate that thousands of games, ranging from AAA titles to indie games, utilize PBR techniques. This includes many of the major releases over the past decade and a significant portion of new games being developed. The widespread adoption of PBR is due to its ability to provide realistic and consistent visuals, making it a standard practice in modern game development.

what percentage of games use pbr

Quote

While it's challenging to provide an exact percentage, it's safe to say that a substantial majority of games developed in recent years use PBR. Given the widespread adoption of game engines like Unreal Engine 4/5 and Unity, which integrate PBR as a core feature, it's reasonable to estimate that over 70-80% of games released in the past several years incorporate PBR to some extent.

For indie games and smaller projects, the percentage might be a bit lower, especially if they use older or less advanced engines. However, even among these, many are adopting PBR techniques as the tools and knowledge become more accessible.

is pbr the industry standard

Quote

Yes, Physically Based Rendering (PBR) has become the industry standard for achieving realistic visuals in modern video games and other real-time graphics applications. Its widespread adoption is due to several factors:

1. Realism and Consistency: PBR provides a more accurate and consistent way to simulate how materials interact with light, leading to more realistic visual results across different lighting conditions.

2. Compatibility: Major game engines like Unreal Engine 4/5, Unity, and CryEngine have integrated PBR workflows into their tools, making it easier for developers to use and implement.

3. Cross-Platform Consistency: PBR helps ensure that materials look consistent across different platforms and hardware, which is crucial for games targeting multiple devices.

4. Industry Adoption: Many AAA and indie games use PBR, and it has become a key component in pipelines for creating high-quality graphics.

While PBR is the industry standard for realistic rendering, there are still cases where other techniques might be used, especially in stylized or retro games where realism isn't the primary goal. However, for most contemporary game development, PBR is the go-to approach.

I find it odd that Chat GPT beat around the bush in response to my first three questions, but was then able to answer the most opinion-orientated question with a definitive yes. I felt like everything should have been reversed in the way that it beat around the bush. I could chalk this up how I believe AI is a mirror that shows us skewed reflections of ourselves, but that would be too easy. Instead, I asked it 2 more questions.

give me a list of games that use pbr

Quote

Certainly! Here’s a list of notable games that use Physically Based Rendering (PBR), showcasing a range of genres and styles:

AAA Titles:

1. "The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt" – Known for its stunning open-world graphics and realistic lighting.
2. "Red Dead Redemption 2" – Features highly detailed environments and lifelike textures.
3. "Cyberpunk 2077" – Uses PBR to achieve a futuristic, high-fidelity urban environment.
4. "Assassin’s Creed Valhalla" – Employs PBR to enhance its historical world with realistic materials.
5. "Horizon Zero Dawn" – Showcases impressive visuals with detailed environmental textures.

Indie Games:

1. "Subnautica" – Utilizes PBR to create realistic underwater environments.
2. "Hades" – Employs PBR for its vibrant and immersive art style.
3. "Control" – Features detailed environments and lighting with PBR techniques.
4. "The Outer Worlds" – Uses PBR to bring its sci-fi world to life with realistic materials.

Other Notable Games:

1. "Fortnite" – Incorporates PBR for its dynamic environments and characters.
2. "Battlefield V" – Utilizes PBR to enhance the realism of its war-torn environments.
3. "Tomb Raider" (2013) and its sequels – Uses PBR for realistic textures and lighting.
4. "DOOM Eternal" – Features PBR to achieve its high-energy, detailed visual style.

These games represent just a sample of the many titles that use PBR to deliver high-quality, realistic visuals. The technique has become a standard in the industry due to its effectiveness in creating visually appealing and consistent graphics.

list as many games as possible that use pbr

Quote

Certainly! Here’s an extensive list of games that use Physically Based Rendering (PBR), spanning various genres and platforms:

AAA Titles:

1. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
2. Red Dead Redemption 2
3. Cyberpunk 2077
4. Assassin’s Creed Valhalla
5. Horizon Zero Dawn
6. Battlefield V
7. DOOM Eternal
8. Far Cry 5
9. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (2019)
10. Call of Duty: Warzone
11. Metro Exodus
12. Shadow of the Tomb Raider
13. Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order
14. Death Stranding
15. Ghost Recon Breakpoint
16. Wolfenstein: Youngblood
17. Madden NFL 21
18. FIFA 21
19. NBA 2K21
20. Gran Turismo 7

Indie Games:

1. Subnautica
2. Hades
3. The Outer Worlds
4. Control
5. Celeste
6. The Binding of Isaac: Repentance
7. Noita
8. Valheim
9. A Plague Tale: Innocence
10. Disco Elysium
11. Slime Rancher
12. Katana ZERO
13. Hyper Light Drifter
14. Ruiner
15. Journey to the Savage Planet

Other Notable Games:

1. Fortnite
2. PUBG (PlayerUnknown’s Battlegrounds)
3. Destiny 2
4. Rainbow Six Siege
5. The Division 2
6. Rage 2
7. Remnant: From the Ashes
8. Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
9. Divinity: Original Sin 2
10. Far Cry New Dawn
11. Outer Wilds
12. Control
13. No Man's Sky
14. Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice
15. Kingdom Come: Deliverance
16. Prey (2017)
17. Gris
18. Journey
19. Tales of Arise
20. The Last of Us Part II

This list covers a wide range of genres and platforms, reflecting the broad adoption of PBR across the gaming industry.

Out of all of these, I might have played one of the Tomb Raider games but idk. I remember vaguely watching my sis play Red Dead 2 and thinking it was very impressive. Then their was the Last of us 2, a vague grey nightmare with a horrific story line. I also remember being very impressed by what I saw from A Plauge Tale in terms of lighting when the characters were moving through the rat infested darkness. So I guess my question would be to everybody who declares that PBR is the industry standard is as follows: Is this list in any way reflective (pun intended) of the industry standards? Or do I have it wrong? And if this is even somewhat representative of the industry standards in SL, is anything close to this realalistically achiveable?

(I'm not really sure how PC vs counsel this list is by the way)

[WeFlossDaily]

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Icor has posted LL's update on the new viewer versions just below your post. The outlook is pretty good, I think -- and because LL is working directly in cooperation with FS, we'll start to see those same performance improvements in that viewer too.

A possible caveat, however: the introduction of deferred rendering (replacing ALM, which we used to use) has made it very clear that different kinds of hardware handle the new system much better than others: some with newer computers actually found that the addition of PBR made their machines run faster. So, what that means is that these performance improvements are not necessarily going to impact every computer the same way. I trust that, this time around, LL is actually testing on older hardware, but really old or weak computers (for instance, laptops with integrated GPUs?) might, possibly, not see the same benefits.

I DO think, though, that this is going to vastly improve the situation for a great many people who are now having problems.

I believe it's only a matter of time before FS runs out of things to whitelist to improve performance.

Eventually, they will just recommend ppl completely disable their anti-virus.

I've been dredging the net a lot lately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Firestorm evolved out of the Phoenix Project, which evolved out of the Emerald viewer, which exploited it's users combined computing power in the fashion of a botnet to perform a DoS attack against some website in a move that was highly illegal and constituted a major breach of trust.

I'm curious to know what you think about FS increasingly asking their users to whitelist more and more folders and .exe files while making fantastical claims that they are about to achieve a miraculous and beautiful breakthrough in PBR performance.

[Alwin Alcott]

6 hours ago, AtomicShrink said:

If there are real solutions, please let me know

solutions for what exactly, i don't see problems listed in your post.

[Rowan Amore]