PBR issue...

[bigmoe Whitfield]

okay so,  this must be a bug, has to be...  I made a probe,  cool it works,  but now I'm unable to grab it from every angle,  transparent on...  can not grab it.    any ideas here?

[Extrude Ragu]

By default selection is off or they'd get in the way of everything

In firestorm there's a checkbox

Alternately Build -> Options -> Select Reflection Probes

[bigmoe Whitfield]

well thank you!   I was sitting here going "I know I'm not this brain dead" lol!

[Ceka Cianci]

9 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

well thank you!   I was sitting here going "I know I'm not this brain dead" lol!

I ripped my hair out yesterday morning with the same thing.. hehehe

[Infierna Bloodrose]

Does anyone know how I can fix the jewelry I've made that I used SL shine on?   Any area that shine was applied on is milky blue. Simply turning off shine leaves a flatish no  sparkling  texture that in no way is as pretty as it was in the non-pbr viewers. Can reflection probes be worn?  At the moment I'm not seeing any way to fix the jewelry I've created.

The items I've made looked really pretty and sparkly in non PBR. Now they are reflecting blue sky and sun and look weird.   I've made a lot of rings and necklaces, many of which just cant be re-texured in substance painter as some  parts were full perm  that I didn't create myself ( and being that, cannot be uploaded to Substance).

Edited Sunday at 09:37 AM by Infierna Bloodrose

[Frionil Fang]

31 minutes ago, Infierna Bloodrose said:

Does anyone know how I can fix the jewelry I've made that I used SL shine on?   Any area that shine was applied on is milky blue.

You should try a different EEP sky, maybe. Old ones often have a very blue ambience if they haven't been adjusted. Did a quick comparison chart: probes and EEP both contribute to the sheen.

[Infierna Bloodrose]

Hello Frionil, 

Thanks for your kind response. I appreciate you taking the time to do that picture and give a thoughtful bit of advice. Unfortunately it doesn't fix the actual problem. It does show a nice array of prims under different  and progressively darker lighting conditions however! 😃

My picture was taken using the new PBR viewer with mid-day setting alone, no reflection probes or shadows enabled and no pbr materials on the gems. The blue areas are where the classic shine (high) was applied to the gems. The gems have base texture and normals mapping as well as the high classic shine applied.

 Putting a notecard into my sale boxes telling people with PBR viewers to adjust their sky until they cant see the necklace anymore isn't a workable solution. I've been telling people to edit the  jewelry and remove shine on any pieces but it really isn't a fix either. it leaves the gems dull and no where as pretty as formerly.

Perhaps there is no fix and my pre-pbr designs will just have to be like that . Anyways, thanks for your reply!   I appreciate it

 

[Frionil Fang]

Yeah, I was trying to demonstrate how the sheen appears on different types of materials in different conditions, and how using more PBR-aware lighting mostly fixes the problem without needing to change the objects. You can't ever be in control of the scenes people use your stuff in, though, or what settings they use, so changing the material may be necessary... or at least leaving it as an option for the end-user.

[Codex Alpha]

23 hours ago, Infierna Bloodrose said:

Hello Frionil, 

Thanks for your kind response. I appreciate you taking the time to do that picture and give a thoughtful bit of advice. Unfortunately it doesn't fix the actual problem. It does show a nice array of prims under different  and progressively darker lighting conditions however! 😃

My picture was taken using the new PBR viewer with mid-day setting alone, no reflection probes or shadows enabled and no pbr materials on the gems. The blue areas are where the classic shine (high) was applied to the gems. The gems have base texture and normals mapping as well as the high classic shine applied.

 Putting a notecard into my sale boxes telling people with PBR viewers to adjust their sky until they cant see the necklace anymore isn't a workable solution. I've been telling people to edit the  jewelry and remove shine on any pieces but it really isn't a fix either. it leaves the gems dull and no where as pretty as formerly.

Perhaps there is no fix and my pre-pbr designs will just have to be like that . Anyways, thanks for your reply!   I appreciate it

 

It's not your job - if you are texturing to specifications - to make it look good in SL, nor your users. That's Linden Lab's job.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

23 hours ago, Infierna Bloodrose said:

Hello Frionil, 

Thanks for your kind response. I appreciate you taking the time to do that picture and give a thoughtful bit of advice. Unfortunately it doesn't fix the actual problem. It does show a nice array of prims under different  and progressively darker lighting conditions however! 😃

My picture was taken using the new PBR viewer with mid-day setting alone, no reflection probes or shadows enabled and no pbr materials on the gems. The blue areas are where the classic shine (high) was applied to the gems. The gems have base texture and normals mapping as well as the high classic shine applied.

 Putting a notecard into my sale boxes telling people with PBR viewers to adjust their sky until they cant see the necklace anymore isn't a workable solution. I've been telling people to edit the  jewelry and remove shine on any pieces but it really isn't a fix either. it leaves the gems dull and no where as pretty as formerly.

Perhaps there is no fix and my pre-pbr designs will just have to be like that . Anyways, thanks for your reply!   I appreciate it

 

Just to amplify what Frionil said, this has nothing to do with what you've got enabled or whether or not you're using PBR materials. It will happen if you're using a PBR-enabled viewer -- any PBR enabled viewer -- because PBR has changed the entire way that light is rendered in SL, on everything.

This is why so many old EEP settings now just look awful. The blue sheen you are seeing is a function of the fact that a lot old EEPs use a blueish colour for "Blue Horizon": you can get rid of, or at least significantly reduce that, if you turn the setting for Blue Horizon to greyscale. Jenna Huntsman talks about this here (look at the very bottom of the page):

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Jenna_Huntsman

The problem, of course, is that you have no control over the EEP that anyone else is using. If you're a creator, the appearance of any shine on the things you create is at the mercy of whatever EEP is used by your customers. (It's not dissimilar, in fact, to the way that a nicely textured object might appear flat in the older viewers if the users didn't have ALM turned on).

And this is why (have I said this often enough?) LL NEEDS TO SUPPLY EVERYONE WITH NEW AND UPDATED EEPs FOR OUR LIBRARIES, even if just a handful. Because their "shiny new world" looks like crap using their unshiny old EEPs, and 99% of residents have ZERO idea of how to fix problems like the one you have by tinkering with their old EEPs.

If this is an item you're selling, you might consider adding a notecard or a brief note on the MP listing outlining the issue.

[rasterscan]

I used SL shine.

 

And why shouldn't you ?  Oh.  🥶

 

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, rasterscan said:

I used SL shine.

 

And why shouldn't you ?  Oh.  🥶

 

yes!

 

[Codex Alpha]

54 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If this is an item you're selling, you might consider adding a notecard or a brief note on the MP listing outlining the issue.

Nope, that's LL's job. Any creator who is going to do this extra work, and deal with all the possible hassles, complaints and wasted time trying to educate the average user is going to deserve it.

Edited Monday at 07:32 PM by Codex Alpha

[Fauve Aeon]

The only thing I can think of to try and un-break the existing pieces is to try making and applying a specular map for these affected surfaces and play with the gloss and environment settings. You could test it out to see if it might work for you by applying the ‘blank’ texture to the faces in the specular texture slot and setting very low (but not zero) environment and then bumping up the shine. Granted, it’s somewhat of a hack but it might do in a pinch to make things look ok again? 

[Arielle Popstar]

55 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The problem, of course, is that you have no control over the EEP that anyone else is using. If you're a creator, the appearance of any shine on the things you create is at the mercy of whatever EEP is used by your customers. (It's not dissimilar, in fact, to the way that a nicely textured object might appear flat in the older viewers if the users didn't have ALM turned on).

And this is why (have I said this often enough?) LL NEEDS TO SUPPLY EVERYONE WITH NEW AND UPDATED EEPs FOR OUR LIBRARIES, even if just a handful. Because their "shiny new world" looks like crap using their unshiny old EEPs, and 99% of residents have ZERO idea of how to fix problems like the one you have by tinkering with their old EEPs.

We've never had control over what other EEP's or windlights others were using. Nothing has changed in that way. My fear of insisting LL needs to do the supplying in this case would be that LL makes it a standard that everyone has to use the same for that common experience they harp about. I like that idea even less.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

53 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Nope, that's LL's job. Any creator who is going to do this extra work, and deal with all the possible hassles, complaints and wasted time trying to educate the average user is going to deserve it.

Of course it's "LL's job." It was LL's job to ensure that we had new PBR-optimized EEPs that didn't cause this kind of problem in the first place.

But LL isn't going to do it, is it? Or, apparently, provide even guidance and assistance for those who want to change their EEPs, yet alone actually update their library.

So, you can sit and look pouty and insist on doing nothing, because it's "LL's job." In which case, your customers are, some of them at least, going to be mystified as to why that cream-coloured jacket they bought looks sky blue when they wear it. But hey, you stuck with your principled stand, right?

Or you can do something about it yourself, even if it means doing "LL's job."

Your choice.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

56 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

We've never had control over what other EEP's or windlights others were using. Nothing has changed in that way.

I am aware of it.

What has changed is that much of our existing library of EEPs look like garbage in the new viewer. At least before we could have at least some faith that customers were seeing products in a reasonably predictable way.

 

56 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My fear of insisting LL needs to do the supplying in this case would be that LL makes it a standard that everyone has to use the same for that common experience they harp about. I like that idea even less.

Your weird paranoia is rearing up again.

There's is absolutely NO reason to think that LL is going to insist on everyone using the same EEP.

None. Zilch.

Nothing they have said or done suggests they're going to be holding our hand, yet alone compelling us to use one or another EEP. On the contrary, they seem entirely content with an insane multiplication of EEPs, including now ones that don't look good in the new viewers.

Edited Monday at 08:34 PM by Scylla Rhiadra
Typo!

[Arielle Popstar]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I am aware of it.

What has changed is that much of our existing library of EEPs look like garbage in the new viewer. At least before we could have at least some faith that customers were seeing products in a reasonably predictable way.

I don't agree. I have seen a few that I thought were interesting but I suppose your mileage varies.

Quote

 

Your weird paranoia is rearing up again.

There's is absolutely NO reason to think that LL is going to insist on everyone using the same EEP.

None. Zilch.

Nothing they have said or done suggests they're going to be holding our hand, yet alone compelling us to use one or another EEP. On the contrary, they seem entirely content with an insane multiplication of EEPs, including now ones that don't look good in the new viewers.

 

My weird paranoia? This is SL remember? Expect the unexpected!

[Fauve Aeon]

Make and collect a few new and fave EEPs that look good with PBR, name them [Descriptive Name, version number] PEEP YYYY, collect in a MP repository like the Free PBR Materials and offer for L$0. Pass about. That will get everyone started. Then I’m sure some environment making wizards will come along with some amazing custom versions for sale but meanwhile, we have a few ‘reliables? Does that sound reasonable? 
 

Edit: I have enough already because people tend to give me these kinds of stuffs, so I’ll check the perms on the ones I like and have. 

Edited Monday at 09:04 PM by Fauve Aeon
Xtra

[Rowan Amore]

Ya know, just tinkering a little bit with Nam's makes it fine for the PBR viewer.  Trust me, if I can do it anyone can.  Copy it from the library into your Settings folder,.than right click and open.  Mess around with blue horizon and ambient.  You can't hurt anything so just have some fun.  

[Arielle Popstar]

I'd like to delete a pile I don't care for. Is there a way to do that?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'd like to delete a pile I don't care for. Is there a way to do that?

Not from you library. But you can make folders for faves.

[Qie Niangao]

I hate to say it but I bet there were lots of advanced lighting conditions under which that classic "Shininess: High" looked pretty blue, long before PBR viewers were a thing. The problem is it's awfully close to using a blank specularmap and cranking up the Environment shine to 255: basically, it reflects the sky, and under a lot of conditions, the sky is very generous with blue light.

My suggestion would be to change the products (I know, it's going to be painful) by setting them to use a blank specularmap, very high glossiness, and low Environment (if any). Maybe try it out in a few lighting conditions and see if that's closer to how you intended the gems to appear.

If, with a little tweaking, that looks good enough, you might also get a similar effect with basic glTF (PBR) Materials settings. And all this could theoretically be done by an update script customers might apply themselves, but that's getting the cart before the horse. First let's see if this is anything like what you wanted.

Oh, to answer a question: nope, can't wear a reflection probe, it would be prohibitively compute-intensive with every tiny quiver of the avatar. Also, as much as EEP can factor into how surfaces are lit in a PBR viewer, it's still possible to create those surfaces without needing to specify a narrow range of lighting conditions. It's just that PBR will reveal those lighting conditions and surface materials treatments that were not nearly as apparent before.

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, to answer a question: nope, can't wear a reflection probe, it would be prohibitively compute-intensive with every tiny quiver of the avatar.

Someone is sure trying, though. 🙄

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/PRIMitive-Clothing-Wearable-Reflection-Probe/26058912

[Rick Nightingale]

28 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Someone is sure trying, though.

There's always one 🤣

From: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PBR_Materials#Understanding_and_Assisting_the_New_Reflections_System

Under any circumstances, you should NOT:

• Wear a reflection probe. This intentionally does not work. (Reflection probes are a property of the scene, not an individual object / avatar)
• Attach a reflection probe to a physics-enabled object, e.g. vehicles. This intentionally does not work. (As above, the reflection probes are part of the scene; not part of an individual object. Reflection probes by design do not update in real-time, thus the object would always have incorrect reflections anyway.)

 

I had to have a look... as expected, it only partially works. Fine as long as I stand still but as soon as I move, the probe zone doesn't move with me. I can walk back and forth through it. Don't know how long that lasts. To be fair, the advert more or less says that.

I guess it could be useful for trying out clothing in places you can't rez if they aren't already probed. At least until LL 'fixes' the exploit.

Edited Monday at 10:02 PM by Rick Nightingale