Firestorm PBR Release Is Out

[Codex Alpha]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

  You're not giving yourself nearly enough credit then and at the very least you're familiar with the filing system which is the problem for those who may have only been familiarizing themselves with computers for the past 3 years.

In some ways it is not much different them when I tell someone they could run their own free locally hosted region in Opensim with less trouble then it takes to configure a fresh install of FS (or whitelisting it for that matter) and their eyes roll back in their head and they cry out they could never run their own server!

Like Codex pointed out, this was something SL should have taken care of.

The relatively 'advanced' users on this forum overestimate people's knowledge of their own computers, possible paranoia of going into their settings and tweaking stuff. One could consider that there are many out there that keep computer repair shops alive just from the simplest things.
Even someone using FS is technically an advanced user, and most who start off with the SL Viewer definitely may not understand why everything is thrashing.
Even at the computer store, they'd be "What is Second Life!" hahha

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

It's interesting that the reason the masses aren't adopting the new viewer keep changing to things that weren't even mentioned a few days before.

Is it? Aren't you keeping an eye on the FS support group to see what people are having issues with? Do you suppose that because a support member posts the whitelisting link, the user then actually runs out and does it so as to live happily ever after? Or are they rolling their eyes and just not bothering to update the viewer?

[Quistess Alpha]

I don't know if this is a problem specifically with firestorm PBR version, or firestorm in general (I switched my 'daily driver' viewer to firestorm for PBR, because my viewer of choice is broken on my OS now ) But, Firestorm PBR fails to rig almost ~Every resident who comes into a region after I arrived. I need to grin and nod for a while trying not to look at people funny for wearing their pants on their hands until there's a good segue to fit in a short relog. Does FS have a dedicated "turn this person back into a cloud and try again" button?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Shiloh Lyric said:

The "pain of whitelisting"?

HALPP!! I am injured by doing teh whitelist!!!

[Flea Yatsenko]

Just now, Porky Gorky said:

So, if a large enough percentage of the user base keep reverting to the non PBR version of FS, then, presumably the day will come when their time with old versions will run out and all FS viewers will be PBR. 

First of all this could be a very significant day, it may be the day that the FS devs are forced into gutting the SL user base. Someone who is good at naming ***** should come up with an appropriate doomsayerish type name for this day.

Secondly, what do you people predict will happen after this? Will there be other non PBR viewers for them to use or is LL  going to force all 3rd party viewers into PBR compliance?

PBR is unpopular with some right now because they are viewing old non-PBR builds in a PBR viewer, which is more demanding because it has more graphical features. But those features are wasted on a lot of older builds, specially those with only a diffuse map. They are basically sitting in their baked lighting skyboxes or clubs or whatever and not seeing any difference other than lighting, and seeing higher temps and more usage from CPU and GPU and they don't understand what PBR is even doing.

LL also thought it was a good idea to bring in some major changes to things like how the viewer downloads assets, which ended up being a lot slower, into the PBR build. So people are conflating problems with PBR with problems with unrelated changes to viewer 7. They should have only added PBR and bug fixes to viewer 7 instead of trying to add new features and stuff. But that's a lot easier to say in hindsight after how PBR has been going for some.

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I don't know if this is a problem specifically with firestorm PBR version, or firestorm in general (I switched my 'daily driver' viewer to firestorm for PBR, because my viewer of choice is broken on my OS now ) But, Firestorm PBR fails to rig almost ~Every resident who comes into a region after I arrived. I need to grin and nod for a while trying not to look at people funny for wearing their pants on their hands until there's a good segue to fit in a short relog. Does FS have a dedicated "turn this person back into a cloud and try again" button?

This checkbox I think:

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

LL also thought it was a good idea to bring in some major changes to things like how the viewer downloads assets, which ended up being a lot slower, into the PBR build. So people are conflating problems with PBR with problems with unrelated changes to viewer 7.

Interesting! I wish we heard more details about that. (I tend to consume most of the Forums, but blink and ya miss it.)

[Quistess Alpha]

17 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

This checkbox I think:

I have that unchecked already, but I'll see if flipping it does anything next time I see a floaty-bits or naked person.

[Flea Yatsenko]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Interesting! I wish we heard more details about that. (I tend to consume most of the Forums, but blink and ya miss it.)

A lot of it was in the Firestorm Beta group. The slow rezzing issue was a major one, and it was so bad I didn't even use the PBR version. The latest beta and changing some OpenGL threading setting for me worked wonders in Linux with an AMD graphics card.

[Whirly Fizzle]

19 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

I hope it's not intentional.   It is present in the official viewer and firestorm.  I've had some of these dress for years.   I'm assuming it's a bug in the current viewer code.

 

 

19 hours ago, Candide LeMay said:

With PBR there was a change of how transparency is rendered. Visually the old and new transparency doesn't match. There are few reports about this, e.g. https://feedback.secondlife.com/bug-reports/p/pbr-trees-render-with-too-much-transparency-since-pbr

At this point it's not clear if LL considers it a bug or not.

 

It's not a bug.
See Kyle Linden's comment on https://secondlife.canny.io/bug-reports/p/pbr-client-opacity-issue-on-textures-with-alpha-channel-windows

Quote

Thank you for your patience while we reviewed all the feedback and screenshots. As Everian pointed out this is part of the new normal.

I do want to assure everyone that using Linear alpha blending is a firm decision and a standard that we intend to uphold into the future. We know this is causing some growing pains but is for the betterment and longevity of Second Life.

To simply restate the new expected behavior, dark colors appear more transparent and light colors appear less transparent.

For those using photo editing tools to create content for Second Life, they may default to sRGB because it is web friendly. Such applications should offer the ability to change the format to Linear alpha blending. That may be easier said than done, so we are going to provide an FAQ and a tutorial on how to make these changes to support Second Life creators.

While the feedback portal is broadly visible these statements will not be official until we have published updated information to relevant SecondLife.com or related Support pages in the form of an FAQ or other documentation.

I am leaving this report in the Under Review status for any additional feedback on this topic.

Thank you

 

[brodiac90]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

HALPP!! I am injured by doing teh whitelist!!!

That video always makes me laugh no matter how many times I've seen it. It's the readjusting the brush to its neck that gets me. 

Edited July 11 by brodiac90

[discussionbot]

5 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

We know this is causing some growing pains but is for the betterment and longevity of Second Life.

PBR in a nutshell 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

13 hours ago, Cube Republic said:

Linden lab said this has never been their intention

I'd flag these reviews. As I stated above and what has been communicated to me straight from the horses mouth is that linden lab do not intend going forward to expect creators to support two rendering pipelines. That's not to say they can't if they want to, it's just not expected of them. Also PBR terrain has no fall back textures either so that's going to be a problem for people  who are being stuborn. 

on the other hand my frame rate should go up since there are no textures to render 😁

[Henri Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Porky Gorky said:

Whilst CoolVL’s goal of making SL accessible to everyone is admirable, I wonder if LL will continue to approve it in the years to come. It seems to go against their goal of a PBR shared experience for the platform.

Not again ”shared experience” non-sense, please... This rule (rule 2k of the TPV Policy) is not about what you see in your viewer, but about what a non-compliant viewer you are using would cause others to see in their own viewer.

See this message of mine for a full explanation, message that by the way was related to someone else suggesting my first dual-renderer viewer (the one used during the Windlight to Extended Environment transition, and which became moot after LL came up with their ”performances viewer”) would be ”non-compliant”...

You see, it's not the first time I deal with transitions (Pre-WL (v1.19) to WL (v1.20+), WL to EE and now EE to PBR) and help SL to retain in its user base people that would have otherwise given up by lack of an ”adequate” computer to run it decently...

Edited July 11 by Henri Beauchamp

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I have that unchecked already, but I'll see if flipping it does anything next time I see a floaty-bits or naked person.

I can't say I have seen the issue in SecondLife as you describe it but have noticed it on occasion in Opensim and I have to ask the other avatar to rebake manually for them to become properly visible. 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

31 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Not again ”shared experience” non-sense (rule 2k of the TPVD), please... This rule is not about what you see in your viewer, but about what a non-compliant viewer you are using would cause others to see in their own viewer.

 

I’m comfused. How does my using a non compliant viewer affect what others see in their viewer?

Are you suggesting that too many people using a non compliant viewer would hinder the progress of spreading the new shiny and thus deprive those that want the latest cool thing of being able to enjoy it as soon as it might have been possible if it wasn’t for all the holdouts?

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I don't know if this is a problem specifically with firestorm PBR version, or firestorm in general (I switched my 'daily driver' viewer to firestorm for PBR, because my viewer of choice is broken on my OS now ) But, Firestorm PBR fails to rig almost ~Every resident who comes into a region after I arrived. I need to grin and nod for a while trying not to look at people funny for wearing their pants on their hands until there's a good segue to fit in a short relog. Does FS have a dedicated "turn this person back into a cloud and try again" button?

That usually indicates a network issue, your client isn't getting the packets it needs especially if there's a long delay before it figures it out. You see this a lot on OpenSim grids that are quite overloaded.

Of course if you're noticing it on a per-viewer basis this is a problem and might be related to configuration.

Edited July 11 by AmeliaJ08

[Rowan Amore]

14 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I’m comfused. How does my using a non compliant viewer affect what others see in their viewer?

Are you suggesting that too many people using a non compliant viewer would hinder the progress of spreading the new shiny and thus deprive those that want the latest cool thing of being able to enjoy it as soon as it might have been possible if it wasn’t for all the holdouts?

Using a non-compliant viewer doesn't affect anyone else.  What is meant by shared experience as far as TPVs goes is...they can't put something new in THEIR viewer that would affect how others see the world.   Let's take mesh as an example.  If a third party viewer had created mesh and a viewer to view it BEFORE LL implemented it, the people NOT on that third party viewer wouldn't be able to see the mesh.  Same with PBR.  If FS had implemented a PBR viewer before LL and people were creating PBR content, LL would shut that down since the OFFICIAL viewer wasn't yet PBR enabled.

Any third party viewer has to implement any experience changes after LL does.  

https://secondlife.com/corporate/third-party-viewers

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Using a non-compliant viewer doesn't affect anyone else.  What is meant by shared experience as far as TPVs goes is...they can't put something new in THEIR viewer that would affect how others see the world.   Let's take mesh as an example.  If a third party viewer had created mesh and a viewer to view it BEFORE LL implemented it, the people NOT on that third party viewer wouldn't be able to see the mesh.  Same with PBR.  If FS had implemented a PBR viewer before LL and people were creating PBR content, LL would shut that down since the OFFICIAL viewer wasn't yet PBR enabled.

Any third party viewer has to implement any experience changes after LL does.  

https://secondlife.com/corporate/third-party-viewers

That's a shame, as a TPV that showed avatars as soulless monsters would be pretty cool!

 

[Henri Beauchamp]

41 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I’m comfused. How does my using a non compliant viewer affect what others see in their viewer?

Just follow the link and read...

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

See this message of mine for a full explanation

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Kyle Linden, quoted in Whirly's post

Quote

For those using photo editing tools to create content for Second Life, they may default to sRGB because it is web friendly. Such applications should offer the ability to change the format to Linear alpha blending. That may be easier said than done, so we are going to provide an FAQ and a tutorial on how to make these changes to support Second Life creators.

While the feedback portal is broadly visible these statements will not be official until we have published updated information to relevant SecondLife.com or related Support pages in the form of an FAQ or other documentation.

Wow. What a revolutionary idea.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Kyle Linden, quoted in Whirly's post

Quote

For those using photo editing tools to create content for Second Life, they may default to sRGB because it is web friendly. Such applications should offer the ability to change the format to Linear alpha blending. That may be easier said than done, so we are going to provide an FAQ and a tutorial on how to make these changes to support Second Life creators.

While the feedback portal is broadly visible these statements will not be official until we have published updated information to relevant SecondLife.com or related Support pages in the form of an FAQ or other documentation.

Wow. What a revolutionary idea.

Do I detect a slight hint of sarcasm?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

The relatively 'advanced' users on this forum overestimate people's knowledge of their own computers, possible paranoia of going into their settings and tweaking stuff. One could consider that there are many out there that keep computer repair shops alive just from the simplest things.
Even someone using FS is technically an advanced user, and most who start off with the SL Viewer definitely may not understand why everything is thrashing.

This is very much the case.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

2 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

The relatively 'advanced' users on this forum overestimate people's knowledge of their own computers, possible paranoia of going into their settings and tweaking stuff. One could consider that there are many out there that keep computer repair shops alive just from the simplest things.
Even someone using FS is technically an advanced user, and most who start off with the SL Viewer definitely may not understand why everything is thrashing.

This is very much the case.

Even more, as can be seen regularly on these same Forums, many (if not most) people overestimate their OWN knowledge of their computers, software, Second Life viewers, etc.

 

[Codex Alpha]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Even more, as can be seen regularly on these same Forums, many (if not most) people overestimate their OWN knowledge of their computers, software, Second Life viewers, etc.

 

And there are those who UNDERESTIMATE and UNDERVALUE their talents and themselves, And feel like IMPOSTERS due to the constant NARCISSISM demonstrated by many users here, who constantly attempt to gaslight, undermine and cause doubt in others by being 'know it alls'.

"feeling like an outsider isn’t an illusion — it’s the result of systemic bias and exclusion"

"Impostor syndrome can stem from and result in strained personal relationships and can hinder people from achieving their full potential in their fields of interest.^[10] The term "impostorization" shifts the source of the phenomenon away from the supposed impostor to institutions whose policies, practices, or workplace cultures "either make or intend to make individuals question their intelligence, competence, and sense of belonging."^[

"Know it alls" who haven't had any measure of success outside of Second Life, Sansar, and have no products, no stores or sales or games or apps ANYWHERE - but will be here all day denigrating everyone else so that they look smart.

But hey you got +1 from your non-productive post, as usual.

Edited July 11 by Codex Alpha
Self-doubt and lack of confidence can be from being abused by others