So let's play fair

[Love Zhaoying]

29 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

wearing a fishnet top over two crosses made of electrical tape.

Classic! Popularized by the "Punk" scene (Wendy O. Williams).

 

[Love Zhaoying]

31 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Here in England, that would be regarded by many as "Club Wear".

But... In Buttwipe, Wisconsin, the THREE members of the "Buttwipe, WN Committee of Fun Hating Puritan Killjoy Concerned Vigilante Citizen Crusader Moral Moronity Bigot Force For the Enforcement Of Ankle Length Personal Hessian Body Tents Of Spiritual Cleanliness In The Name Of Our Lardy Flavour, Cheesus Toast" would describe that as "street corner hooker wear" and start screaming that the police department be issued with Official Holy Flamethrowers to deal with the "obscenity".

I'm reminded of "The Only Gay In the Village".

 

[Jaylinbridges]

45 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

But... In Buttwipe, Wisconsin,

I wish you would stop attacking Buttwipe, Wisconsin. I can't even find it on the map.  I come from Madison, Wisconsin, where we had no problem getting butt naked in the streets on the days before and during Halloween, and sometimes after the bars closed on hot summer nights.   And we had nude beaches a short sailboat ride from the University, open when the lakes unfroze.  Anyway I am sure I'll never come to Buttcrack, England either. 

 

Edited May 22 by Jaylinbridges

[Blush Bravin]

3 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The new TOS agreement only popped up once for me to check the box.  I actually read all the TOS after I logged in, not before, because, well I had a job schedule to meet, and didn't have 2 hours to waste reading more rules before I agreed.  No where did they ask me to agree again after I read them.  And now they tell us they are constantly changing the FAQs as more complaints arrive.  I didn't get a new login screen when they modified the FAQ.  I plead ignorance of the ever changing laws. 

I suggest the new peeps use this argument, and inform LL that their communication technology to all members really sucks.

Point is you knew there had been a change by that popup. It's on you to decide what you're going to do. Read it first or just agree? You have access to all the tools to find the changes before you agree if that's important for you. I just agreed and logged in. But, I did upon landing at my home, open up the forums to see if I could find a quick reference to see what had changed. I knew there wouldn't be anything in the revised TOS that would keep me out of SL. So really was a no brainer for me.

3 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

That last nobody will fight against, it's one of the worst ways i ever seen online how to force to agree to rules, or loose everything.

But having no time to read it, is no excuse for accepting it and see later what it is. You had the choice to wait till you had time.
After accepting, there's no logical reason to to ask again , you already did.

It would be a better customer service to announce the new rules and accept those within two weeks (as example) 

For years I have wished that when we get a popup for a revised TOS that it had a link that showed specifically what had changed, so I didn't have to be a sleuth to find the new rules.

3 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

The problem for us child avatars, and yes, it is a problem for us, is that public nudity is allowed on M sims for adult avatars. Wearing the skimpiest clothing possible with everything hanging out is already more than what is required for M sims. 

My biggest issue is inappropriate attire in General sims. However, again, there is no dress code. So long as everything is covered then you meet the rules. An adult could wear a string bikini and still technically be within the rules, if not the spirit. 

 

 

I totally understand and have the same feelings and I don't play a child in SL. I just get tired of having the nudity/sex focus in my face all the time. 

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Why is that a problem, if it is perfectly allowed? Because you don't like it? Because you don't want to see it or be around it? I'm confused by the issue here, sorry!

On the surface, it seems a little like going to a "strip club" and saying, "I have a problem with strip clubs". In that analogy, consider "all of Mature" land a big "strip club"; nobody forces you to go there, do they?

The reason I ask is, by phrasing your statement as, "I have a problem with..", most people use this type of statement when they want to change something.

Perhaps a more granular ratings system will help?

Edited to add: I used "Mature" when I should have used "Moderate".  Brain fart!  I guess if the "Rating" was actually called "Mature", then my general reasoning makes more sense.  Since it is "Moderate", then people can overlay more easily their interpretations of "what 'moderate' should be like".

 

Brodiac said his biggest issue is with inappropriate attire in G rated regions. You use the example of him going to a strip club but that's not really a good example IMO. It's more like he's going to a mall and finding it filled with people dressed to be performing in a strip club. Big different!

59 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

A string bikini is not naked.  

The only solution I have now is to also ban child avatars from M rated sims too. You can go in an adult avatar to shop but other than that you need to stay on G rated land. Perfect solution for everyone since Child avatars for some reason can't seem to stay away from naked avatars on M rated land, even though I've rarely seen them.  WHERE are all these naked avatars all the Child avatars are seeing. Please point it out to me cause I'd like to see some too!

Edit: also shame on the region owners for allowing naked avatars and Child avatars entry at the same time.

When you have string bikinis that are basically a thong in the front, where both sides of the l*bia are hanging out, and the smallest little spot that doesn't actually cover the full nipple that might as well be naked.

[Jaylinbridges]

20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

There's an idea - never, ever log into Second Life ("in world") without checking the Forum first to make sure there are no new "deal breaker" changes.

That's exactly what I do.  Of Course you never log off the forum, so you will always know first.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Why is that a problem, if it is perfectly allowed? Because you don't like it? Because you don't want to see it or be around it? I'm confused by the issue here, sorry!

On the surface, it seems a little like going to a "strip club" and saying, "I have a problem with strip clubs". In that analogy, consider "all of Mature" land a big "strip club"; nobody forces you to go there, do they?

The reason I ask is, by phrasing your statement as, "I have a problem with..", most people use this type of statement when they want to change something.

Perhaps a more granular ratings system will help?

Edited to add: I used "Mature" when I should have used "Moderate".  Brain fart!  I guess if the "Rating" was actually called "Mature", then my general reasoning makes more sense.  Since it is "Moderate", then people can overlay more easily their interpretations of "what 'moderate' should be like".

 

Expand  

Brodiac said his biggest issue is with inappropriate attire in G rated regions. You use the example of him going to a strip club but that's not really a good example IMO. It's more like he's going to a mall and finding it filled with people dressed to be performing in a strip club. Big different!

In my reply, I am not referring to the "biggest" problem (the "second" statement in Brodiac's quote), I am referring to the "first" statement in Brodiac's quote:

3 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

The problem for us child avatars, and yes, it is a problem for us, is that public nudity is allowed on M sims for adult avatars. Wearing the skimpiest clothing possible with everything hanging out is already more than what is required for M sims. 

My examples of going to a "strip club" were in reference to that ("M"), not the "biggest problem" ("G").

Edited May 22 by Love Zhaoying

[Rick Nightingale]

6 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You have access to all the tools to find the changes before you agree if that's important for you. I just agreed and logged in. But, I did upon landing at my home, open up the forums to see if I could find a quick reference to see what had changed. I knew there wouldn't be anything in the revised TOS that would keep me out of SL. So really was a no brainer for me.

Precisely so. If there's something important enough that I might need to know (in this case, barely, if my Dinky Demon really is seen as a child instead of an adult cat) then I'll soon find out on the forum and can look it up if I need to.

I guess if everyone took that attitude though... there might be a problem.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You have access to all the tools to find the changes before you agree if that's important for you. I just agreed and logged in. But, I did upon landing at my home, open up the forums to see if I could find a quick reference to see what had changed. I knew there wouldn't be anything in the revised TOS that would keep me out of SL. So really was a no brainer for me.

Precisely so. If there's something important enough that I might need to know (in this case, barely, if my Dinky Demon really is seen as a child instead of an adult cat) then I'll soon find out on the forum and can look it up if I need to.

I guess if everyone took that attitude though... there might be a problem.

If people REALLY don't like the TOS changes, they can agree to them first, then find out what they are, then quit Second Life and delete their accounts.

Unless "protesting" feels really, really good of course. 

All this feels like an exercise in "protesting" and "venting".

I heard "venting" is important.  Ever seen anyone "pop" on the Forums because apparently they waited too long to "vent"? It's not pretty.

 

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In my reply, I am not referring to the "biggest" problem (the "second" statement in Brodiac's quote), I am referring to the "first" statement in Brodiac's quote:

My examples of going to a "strip club" were in reference to that ("M"), not the "biggest problem" ("G").

Do you view M land as a strip club environment? I don't. If that's what it's supposed to be then maybe I need to find some G land somewhere. I don't want to live in a strip club. If I want to go to a strip club then I'll travel to one. A strip club is a place of business with sexual titillation as it's primary product. 

So while I get your analogy, I think it's faulty. I understand the desire for moderate land to not be treated as adult land. *shrugs* Maybe I'm just too old fashioned. 

[Rick Nightingale]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

All this feels like an exercise in "protesting" and "venting".... Ever seen anyone "pop" on the Forums because apparently they waited too long to "vent"?

Yep. Often leading to 'rage quitting', which is often only 50% accurate given a day or so.

Edited May 22 by Rick Nightingale
I kept getting my words in the wrong order... I think I'm coming down with something.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

Do you view M land as a strip club environment? I don't. If that's what it's supposed to be then maybe I need to find some G land somewhere. I don't want to live in a strip club. If I want to go to a strip club then I'll travel to one. A strip club is a place of business with sexual titillation as it's primary product. 

So while I get your analogy, I think it's faulty. I understand the desire for moderate land to not be treated as adult land. *shrugs* Maybe I'm just too old fashioned. 

That's fine, at least you see I was referring to Brodiac's objection of things in "Mature" land.

How about instead of a "Strip Club", a "Clothing Optional Community"? Is that closer to the reality of "Mature" land? Let's assume that it is, for the sake of discussion:

1. Assumption: "Mature" land is essentially a "Clothing Optional Community".

2. Some "have a problem" with it.

That's it - just because some "have a problem" with it, doesn't mean something needs to be changed.

I hope that is a more fair and apt analogy!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rick Nightingale said:

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

All this feels like an exercise in "protesting" and "venting".... Ever seen anyone "pop" on the Forums because apparently they waited too long to "vent"?

Yep. Often referred to as 'rage quitting', which is only 50% accurate given a day or so.

I was referring more to those who suddenly start calling everyone else liars, writing in all caps, cursing, demanding changes (ok, that's quite common), etc.  Yes, "rage" but something inside them "pops" and it is very concerning all of a sudden.  They don't always "quit" so far as we know, but you often don't hear back from them. 

 

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That's fine, at least you see I was referring to Brodiac's objection of things in "Mature" land.

How about instead of a "Strip Club", a "Clothing Optional Community"? Is that closer to the reality of "Mature" land? Let's assume that it is, for the sake of discussion:

1. Assumption: "Mature" land is essentially a "Clothing Optional Community".

2. Some "have a problem" with it.

That's it - just because some "have a problem" with it, doesn't mean something needs to be changed.

I hope that is a more fair and apt analogy!

 

Much better analogy. But .. lol ... not trying to be difficult .. but

In the FAQ, I'm going to paraphrase cause I don't want to find it. It says child avatars are allowed in M regions as long as nudity is not expected or advertised. So to me, that indicates that just because a region is M doesn't necessarily mean you should expect nudity to occur. 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Much better analogy. But .. lol ... not trying to be difficult .. but

In the FAQ, I'm going to paraphrase cause I don't want to find it. It says child avatars are allowed in M regions as long as nudity is not expected or advertised. So to me, that indicates that just because a region is M doesn't necessarily mean you should expect nudity to occur. 

Ok then, for the sake of argument:

- It would seem that the issue may be whether or not nudity is "expected". (If nudity is "advertised", then child avatars should know better unless they "miss the signs".)

- "Expected" is somewhat a "squishy term". 

For example:  I think that I've seen a few complaints about seeing naked avatars specifically "while shopping"; however, many users may think it just fine to undress before changing to new outfits while shopping.  If on "M" land and nobody says "don't do that" (get naked while shopping), and you see occasional avatars doing it, then..doesn't it become "expected" (normalized)?  

 

[Extrude Ragu]

So many TOS threads lol

[Psyche Starling]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

For example:  I think that I've seen a few complaints about seeing naked avatars specifically "while shopping"; however, many users may think it just fine to undress before changing to new outfits while shopping.  If on "M" land and nobody says "don't do that" (get naked while shopping), and you see occasional avatars doing it, then..doesn't it become "expected" (normalized)?  

 

Also, if it's laggy, they might not really be naked. They've just rezzed before their clothes. They may see them just fine even though you (general you) don't. 

i'm a fan of the "put the demo on over my regular clothes, then take off the regular clothes" thing, which I guess is the SL equivalent of that thing where we contort out of our bras while keeping our shirts on, but who knows what other people see?

I was in a community with a strict dress code for a while, and one thing you learned quick was to wait a minute before messaging people about their wardrobe malfunction lol, because it might not really be one.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

But .. lol ... not trying to be difficult .. bu

Yes, you are, but since you want to dabble in yet more already-shot-down-in-flames "whataboutism"... 

Let's dance this dance.

 

6 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

It says child avatars are allowed in M regions as long as nudity is not expected or advertised. So to me, that indicates that just because a region is M doesn't necessarily mean you should expect nudity to occur. 

Your Tiny Toxic Terror Tot avatar teleports to a parcel called "World of Dull" on an M rated region, and "world of Dull" s the kind of place you wouldn't expect to see nudity. Well done you.

But "World Of Dull" is a 2048 parcel, located just across one of those under used LLDPW strips of tarmac textured prim waste known as roads, from an 8192 parcel called "Rangy Lil's Burlesque Saloon", where permitted-on-M-rated non-sexual nudity can and does happen on a regular basis.

 

Despite that, you then insist on spamming FRAUDULENT ARs against the Saloon, and and all it's dancers, in the name of the tiny Toxic Terror Tot Retribution Front!

 

Guess who is in the wrong.

HINT, it's not the ones wearing nipple tassels and vintage corsets.

 

 

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

8 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

...you're part of a tiny toxic minority mostly to blame for the scandals, and a sore loser, who wants the 99% of SL that are not part of your gang to be punished for the problem your gang has created, just by existing.

The entitlement is what gets me. I understand people use child avis for therapeutic purposes but to continually lambaste a private company for not catering to their mental health needs is out of line. Seek professional help. 

[Chery Amore]

I admit, I decided to dress like a stripper today. Going to shop in the moderate regions. It's funny when a tantrum post brings out the reactionary opposite.  Wait,  gotta adjust things to be a little more sheer.. there, that's better. 

[Dorientje Woller]

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

So you basically can't follow any rules that are bothersome? I sure bet you'd read that "You ARE Banned" email though huh?

If there is only one option, in this case "I Agree", makes every EULA, ToS, Roc or whatever you call it, simply "Null & Void" under the laws of the European Union, because you're denying one party the choice. It's FORBIDDEN to present EULA's, ToS, RoC's and so one without an alternative.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok then, for the sake of argument:

- It would seem that the issue may be whether or not nudity is "expected". (If nudity is "advertised", then child avatars should know better unless they "miss the signs".)

- "Expected" is somewhat a "squishy term". 

For example:  I think that I've seen a few complaints about seeing naked avatars specifically "while shopping"; however, many users may think it just fine to undress before changing to new outfits while shopping.  If on "M" land and nobody says "don't do that" (get naked while shopping), and you see occasional avatars doing it, then..doesn't it become "expected" (normalized)?  

An absolute ton of non-clothing stores are on M land. There should be zero expectation of nudity if you're hitting up JIAN (a pet store) or Tarte (a home and garden store) or Wasabi (hair store).

 

Speaking of which:  

1 hour ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

WHERE are all these naked avatars all the Child avatars are seeing. Please point it out to me cause I'd like to see some too!

Not naked, but I did run into someone in an extraordinarily tiny thong with her #$@ all hanging out bent over spamming adult gestures (something something wet something something something) while shopping for animesh pets in a cutesy store on Moderate land the other day. It's rare, but stuff like that happens. I just ignore it and roll with my sound muted anyway, but I can see how that might bother others.

Edited May 22 by Ayashe Ninetails
Grammaring

[Blush Bravin]

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok then, for the sake of argument:

- It would seem that the issue may be whether or not nudity is "expected". (If nudity is "advertised", then child avatars should know better unless they "miss the signs".)

- "Expected" is somewhat a "squishy term". 

For example:  I think that I've seen a few complaints about seeing naked avatars specifically "while shopping"; however, many users may think it just fine to undress before changing to new outfits while shopping.  If on "M" land and nobody says "don't do that" (get naked while shopping), and you see occasional avatars doing it, then..doesn't it become "expected" (normalized)?  

 

Anyone who has been shopping in SL for more than a couple months should fully expect to see naked avatars at shopping events.

I think, I could be wrong, but what I take brodiac's argument to be addressing is more specifically the issue of near/complete nakedness as a means of being sexually provocative. 

added: I want to be clear. I am offering this point of view not as something to be taken as wanting rules to change or that accommodations should be made, but more as a vehicle for understanding someone else's viewpoint that may be completely not in line with your own views. I think a huge problem we've had since this became an issue is a lack of understanding or empathy for both sides of the issue.

Edited May 22 by Blush Bravin

[Kathlen Onyx]

IN all that is holy can someone tell me where all these naked avatars are!!!!

I'm begging you. 

[AmeliaJ08]

8 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

 I guess you missed the latest FAQ's from LL.  Most of your information is also misinformed.

Senra Blake and Jamie are supposed to be adult bodies though? weird they chose that to demonstrate...

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

If there is only one option, in this case "I Agree", makes every EULA, ToS, Roc or whatever you call it, simply "Null & Void" under the laws of the European Union, because you're denying one party the choice. It's FORBIDDEN to present EULA's, ToS, RoC's and so one without an alternative.

The alternative is staring you in the face. It's that little X on the right hand top of your screen.

Also, the company is located in California.  That's probably why it's not FORBIDDEN here.