So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Codex Alpha]

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6 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

I have often marvelled at just how SEGREGATED Second Life can be. It is most apparent when looking at furries vs. human avatars, but it also tends to happen with children vs. Adults (except for family roleplay), dinkies vs. regular sized avatars, etc.  

Or even those of us who put on the original SL avatar, and haven't changed it since. We get discriminated against as well

It seems these days, that everythind and everyone must be divided, in every way possible, to erode and destroy trust in everyone and everything - until it all becomes and infantilized, 'safe' and policed existence - with the Citizen Snitch waiting to tattle tale, wage war against their rivals, and take out competitors.

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Madi Melodious said:

Actually, it doesn't.  In 10 years, I've never spoken like a child avatar in that kind of manner.  In our estate "family" we do have a member that we refer to sometimes as "Mom" but it's more of title of respect than her being our actual SL mommy figure.    Basically, short of anything listed in the TOS, I basically treat my child avatar the exact same way I treat my adult alt.  

A lot of people do though.

What irks me the most are the Child Avi's that come into groups asking for support or questions about a product and sit there and STILL act like children. They say things like "I'm a kid, I don't understand" in that whining voice. They use child babble.  Unless it's a RP group for children,  then please act like the adult you are when asking for support help. 

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

I think people see what they want to see. For instance, your avatar picture looks, to me, like you are 14.

you look like at least 55 - 56 to me.

[Theresa Ravenheart]

14 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

To me...that looks like a 13 year old that talked her parents into getting her a breast enlargement.  Where are earth would you think that represents anyone older than 21?

Ya think maybe the site is taking into consideration the outfit, jewelry, etc you are wearing that in no way would any adult wear?

I'm sorry but you are delulu. I'm wearing a collar, a goddess necklace, long nails, and rings, how is any of my jewelry not "adult" or not something an adult would wear? My outfit is a top with a corset and baggy jeans, that's not something an adult would wear?! I don't understand your logic at all. 

Also I have never been approached or told I look under 21, nor have I ever had issues at any adult sim.

I don't know what 13 years around you look like...

Edited May 5 by Theresa Ravenheart

[Madi Melodious]

1 hour ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

I really miss the days when people didn't think the internet was RL and they didn't post all their RL stuff online with their full names. 

Are you telling me your real name is "Flea Yatsenko?"   If so, I'm going to need to see some id.  🤣

[Kathlen Onyx]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

you look like at least 55 - 56 to me.

Thanks! That was the look I was going for.

[Angelor Galanter]

It might be time to end this topic. Really, if anyone has questions or concerns it's as simple as B. B. R.: Block, Ban, Report. If you BBR you can continue with your SL life knowing you "saw something; said something!" 

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, AnthonyJoanne said:

Firstly:

I don't think I've seen anyone who's noticed the major flaw in the TOS yet, but I haven't managed to wade through all of this thread, so if it's already been said ... mea culpa. Try to remember that the default avatar is still the system avatar. And there is NO WAY to make a system avatar where you CANNOT remove the 'modesty panel'. It's going to be pretty hard to enforce "cannot be removed" when the basic avatar underneath all our mesh doesn't comply with that rule and CANNOT be made to short of adding some kind of flag that prohibits you from changing your skin. So instead of indulging in panic, try to relax and wait to see how it unfolds. There is plenty time to panic later on.

The system avatar cannot be mistaken for a "child avatar", if I understand correctly.

[Stellaa Starlight]

Yes LL please lock this thread. It has went on for way too long. 

Edited May 5 by Stellaa Starlight

[ILIKEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPI]

On 5/2/2024 at 3:38 PM, Starberry Passion said:

I think child avatars marketed as child avatars should be what is a child avatar and adult market avatars should only be adult and should only be adults, you shouldn't be allowed to label them as child or use them as a Child.

Bodies like:

Maitreya

Lara X

Petite X

Legacy

Legacy Perky 

Reborn

Kupra

Peach

Gen X

and any other body that is marketed towards adults and have an adult appearance shouldn't be labeled as child.

Thats not entirely fair to people who roleplay Older Teens either. The ages of 13 and below are covered 14 and above are not. You can make a Teenage avi using Maitreya, Legacy , Jake Etc off of messing with Body proportions So stating this is not that ingenious either. Using Tweenster it does not look right when your rping a In-between age.

[Aya Sweetheart]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've used that to check a few of my photos.  I've been detected as anywhere between 15-25.  

Used several photos of my avatar and its gone from 14 to 28 lol  I think it might have issues with non-real faces

33 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I did my RL picture and it showed my age between 18 to STFU!!

I did a couple of my RL pics and it thought 14 and 16 ... and I'm 22 lol.  Its probably not too inaccurate though, many people think I'm a kid still... (I had the police called on me not long ago for using a "fake ID" and the police had to straighten them out that women come in all shapes and sizes, and how to know if its a real ID) so I have to deal with it in RL and deal with it in SL unless I want to look old/ugly, maybe why this all annoys me more.

[Starberry Passion]

4 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Thanks! That was the look I was going for.

And that's why no one is listening to you because you're the very type of person who is trying to attack younger women for not looking your age.

[Flea Yatsenko]

5 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

Are you telling me your real name is "Flea Yatsenko?"   If so, I'm going to need to see some id.  🤣

I already backtraced your IP and found Madi Melodious on fastpeoplesearch it's all over now!!! 🤣

[Codex Alpha]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

Ok, well now you look 15.

They must grow 15 year olds differently where you live

[Persephone Emerald]

4 minutes ago, AnthonyJoanne said:

This has been fascinating for a number of reasons.

Here's a few thoughts just to muddy the waters a bit more.

Firstly:

I don't think I've seen anyone who's noticed the major flaw in the TOS yet, but I haven't managed to wade through all of this thread, so if it's already been said ... mea culpa. Try to remember that the default avatar is still the system avatar. And there is NO WAY to make a system avatar where you CANNOT remove the 'modesty panel'. It's going to be pretty hard to enforce "cannot be removed" when the basic avatar underneath all our mesh doesn't comply with that rule and CANNOT be made to short of adding some kind of flag that prohibits you from changing your skin. So instead of indulging in panic, try to relax and wait to see how it unfolds. There is plenty time to panic later on.

Secondly:

It's been less than three days since the TOS was published. And in typical LL fashion it has left significant questions unanswered. Why are you freaking out that LL haven't addressed it over a weekend when you've got TWO months to get it sorted? For your own health, try to learn some patience ... because freaking out isn't doing you any good. It's too soon to be soiling your diapers. I'm translating into American, but I'm pretty sure I got that idiom right.

Thirdly:

Brace yourselves, because there's a chance that you'll lose all of the stuff you spent money on some day. Hundred or thousands of dollars just gone. Friends just gone. The places you cherish just gone. If you can't face that, then I'd advise you to reconsider spending time in a virtual environment ... because if the wrong people were to buy the rights to all of this, they'd have no qualms in shutting it all down, and the odds are that you'd have no legal recourse whatsoever.

^ Yes, this. ^

I did say about 100 pages back that a standard avatar can always change it's skin and BOM layers. I think people are so used to using third party mesh bodies that they think everyone else does too. I also said even the default avatars such the Senra ones can be made to look underage and can use changeable BOM layers.

LL will have to remove that part about non-modifiable skin, because it's completely unenforceable and doesn't get to the heart of the problem anyway. Nobody has been complaining about naked child avatars, except when they are in proximity to adult avatars. Abuse Report bad behavior, not the skin or BOM layers (underwear, bathing suit, tights, etc.) that an avatar is wearing.

[Quartz Mole]

I think if anyone wants to post some more pictures of avatars to discuss how old they look, it would be best so to do in a thread dedicated to that topic, possibly in the Your Avatar forum.  

If someone would like to start that thread, I'll port the last few pictures over, but please don't post any more of them in this thread.

[AnthonyJoanne]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

^ Yes, this. ^

I did say about 100 pages back that a standard avatar can always change it's skin and BOM layers. I think people are so used to using third party mesh bodies that they think everyone else does too. I also said even the default avatars such the Senra ones can be made to look underage and can use changeable BOM layers.

LL will have to remove that part about non-modifiable skin, because it's completely unenforceable and doesn't get to the heart of the problem anyway. Nobody has been complaining about naked child avatars, except when they are in proximity to adult avatars. Abuse Report bad behavior, not the skin or BOM layers (underwear, bathing suit, tights, etc.) that an avatar is wearing.

Ah - Mea Culpa then.

Credit to Persephone for spotting the flaw. I must have either missed it, or the 70 pages I have managed to wade through have turned my brain into mush.

I might head to bed

[Rowan Amore]

So who's going to start the topic?  So we don't all rush over there and have 10

 

[Codex Alpha]

UPDATE: Maybe people need a topic "What Constitutes A Child Avatar"

What many people on SL need is to review the body shapes, proportions and heights of children to adults, both boys and girls,  and even maybe study Kawaii and Anime to learn what 'cute' means and what traits are used to suggest child-like traits.

Here's a start.
https://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/human-anatomy-fundamentals-drawing-different-ages--cms-21905

Frankly, there should be no doubt as to what age is represented, as there are OBJECTIVE traits for each age group, albeit possible to skew either way with things like clothing, makeup and accessories.

What should matter is a CLEAR case of wrong doing on the platform, REPORTED if it is fairly and agreed upon characteristics, and what BEHAVIOUR was happening and WHERE. This doesn't have to be so hard and confusing.

If anything, people are confused, or forget what children actually look like.

Edited May 5 by Codex Alpha

[Kathlen Onyx]

8 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

And that's why no one is listening to you because you're the very type of person who is trying to attack younger women for not looking your age.

You have a doll head on your avatar that looks like a CHILD.  I couldn't care less if you call it a "stylized" head. 

All I'm saying is that if you are ok with that being over 18 great! But some will see it as a child avatar. If you are confident that if you get AR'd you won't get banned then don't change it.

I've already stated several times in this thread that unless I see a child avi on adult land or on a nude beach I will be ignoring it because I simply don't care enough to take the time to AR you. It's not me you have to worry about.

Others will spend all their time in SL doing just that.

 

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I think if anyone wants to post some more pictures of avatars to discuss how old they look, it would be best so to do in a thread dedicated to that topic, possibly in the Your Avatar forum.  

If someone would like to start that thread, I'll port the last few pictures over, but please don't post any more of them in this thread.

Sorry, This happened because, a few who targeted profile photos and telling them how old they look or are as a way to target them in a negative manner. That's why there are some who have. 

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

You have a doll head on your avatar that looks like a CHILD.  I couldn't care less if you call it a "stylized" head. 

All I'm saying is that if you are ok with that being over 18 great! But some will see it as a child avatar. If you are confident that if you get AR'd you won't get banned then don't change it.

I've already stated several times in this thread that unless I see a child avi on adult land or on a nude beach I will be ignoring it because I simply don't care enough to take the time to AR you. It's not me you have to worry about.

Others will spend all their time in SL doing just that.

 

I think you're talking to someone else, never said it was stylized but it doesn't look like a child to me at all. You're putting words in my mouth.

[Quartz Mole]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So who's going to start the topic?  So we don't all rush over there and have 10

 

If someone does start a thread, post a link here.  If anyone wants their posts moving there, report them and we'll move them.

Edited May 5 by Quartz Mole

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

What many people on SL need is to review the body shapes, proportions and heights of children to adults, both boys and girls,  and even maybe study Kawaii and Anime to learn what 'cute' means and what traits are used to suggest child-like traits.

 

Because people that see an avatar they think is a child in the wrong place are going to think...."hmm, let me go study body shapes and proportions before I submit an AR. I might as well just look up Kawaii and Anime while I'm at it"

Unlikely to happen.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I think if anyone wants to post some more pictures of avatars to discuss how old they look, it would be best so to do in a thread dedicated to that topic, possibly in the Your Avatar forum.  

If someone would like to start that thread, I'll port the last few pictures over, but please don't post any more of them in this thread.

Thank you!