What Justification Is There For No Mod Permissions?

[Ceka Cianci]

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Apples to oranges.  In my early days it was expected that we use prims and create the world from them. Nowadays, mesh is expected and many don't want to learn Blender so they never attempt much content creation.

A lot of people tell me that  Mesh is easier than, oh what was the version we had just before mesh? It's early in the morning and can't think of it..* scratches her forehead*

Sculpties!! that's it.. hehehe

I spent like 20 hours straight learning blender and how to make sculpties.. The hardest part was getting things to work out after my uploads, like not making things so complex.. But that started to work out with practice..

I never tried making mesh myself yet, so I'm just going off what others have told me about it being easier..

But Blender really wasn't that hard to learn to be able to get going.. It just felt hard because I crammed a lot in those 20 hours.. hehehe

 

[Paul Hexem]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:42 PM, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Just like every other time this is asked, the answer is clear. People put no mod on things because they don't want people to modify them.

Correct.

But if it's that simple, why does it upset you so much to see questions? If you're confident of your reasons, threads like this shouldn't bother you.

[Lillani Lowell]

Depends. If a product wasn't prone to break when modded, then it would usually be mod. If was something that could, potentially, break when modded-- it would be no mod.

Another reason for no-mod... could be security. If it is a networked item and stores data in the Linkset Data... making it no mod, ensures Linkset data protection (no, the Linkset passwords are not secure and could be brute forced by someone enterprising enough). Especially if it is a system that governs games, game rules, contains sensitive data, etc.

People can also forget for large content creators-- people are prone to breaking things, and then yelling for customer service for the thing they broke instead of having it redelivered via a terminal. Sometimes, it is just better to prevent them from breaking something entirely. When I had a few larger stores... if I had a dollar for every person who needed something 'replaced' or help modding something... just no.

The last product I designed and released onto the market under someone else's store is no mod. It is presented as it is, I didn't want anybody messing with it, removing animations, breaking it, etc... so, it is no mod. A product's presentation is also a part of its advertising and brand... and sometimes, I just don't want someone messing with the presentation. 

Personally, I don't really care for the pro-consumer/anti-consumer argument, I think it is a dumb argument. Creators have the freedom to sell what they want how they want, just as much as buyers have the freedom to buy or not buy. You either like freedom of choice or you don't-- you don't only get freedom on your end of the stick.

Most of the things I've made have been mod though. It is very much a case by case basis.

[Monika Skydancer]

I sell boat textures. They're no mod cause if people want changes I wanna do it myself. That way I know the quality of the work will be up to my standards. I ain't happy at having ugly ass boats based on my work out there cause it can rebound on my reputation.

I'll add a boat's name to any of my hull my paints for free. If someone buys my numbered sails I'll put on any sail number they want for no extra charge. If they want minor customization I'll usually do that for the cost of uploading the textures. But if someone wants a custom paint they can hire me to make a custom paint (& my rates for that are pretty reasonable unless I specially hate working on that class of boat). My hull & sail textures are some of the cheapest on mp but one reason for that is I wanna keep some control over how boats using them look.

Also they're textures. People's ability to mod them is gonna be kinda limited anyway unless I make them transfer, which seeing as they also need to be copy ain't gonna happen.

[Rick Nightingale]

The attitude of (some of) the creators and sellers in SL has been mentioned a few times. Here's a relevant example that happened to us a few hours ago...

My wife has been searching for the 'perfect' bikini for LaraX. She wants a specific shade, but so far has found nice bikinis in the wrong colour (and of course no-mod) or bikinis she doesn't like but in the right colour. Finally, today we went shopping and found one that was really nice, and had a colour in the range close enough if it could be tinted just a touch... and it was advertised as mod perms as were other items in the store! So she bought it, and we both felt happy that we had found another maker to support.

It was no-mod.

She contacted the store's CS, very politely saying what the problem was and asking for help. The quick response was "the advert says it is no-mod".

This is the advert:

 

As you can see, "mod" is clearly stated.

We immediately sent that picture, along with a polite, "please check the advert" reply. That was several hours ago now, with a couple more follow up messages from my wife.

Nothing. No further response from CS.

This is about typical of what we have experienced with the majority of sellers over the years, and people wonder why I'm a bit down on the attitude of many and quick to comment, perhaps cuttingly, on it.

My wife is out of pocket L$800 (she joined the paid group as well, to start getting store credit that will now never be used). We are both disappointed at yet another supposedly top-tier seller.

 

Edited May 29 by Rick Nightingale
Changed picture to remove store name I had not noticed

[Eowyn Southmoor]

Though not technically on topic for this thread (probably belongs in the Peeves thread), I had a similar encounter a while ago with some food decor I bought.  I wanted some coffee cups that I could link to the cup holders in my car.  Purchased a set on sale which looked great, but discovered they were no-mod.  Checked the ad again - it clearly stated that the product was mod, so I contact the seller.  Got a reply via notecard saying the product was re-size scripted so I can make it any size I want 

Umm, no... a resizing script is NOT the same as being mod.  Spent the best part of a few hours sending notecards back and forth (why the creator couldn't speak in IM with me I'll never know), with me needing to explain what  modify means, including detailing my plans for the product.

Finally did manage to get a refund though, but for sure I will never shop at that store again. I now wonder if the creator has bothered to change their ads?

So creators, sure if you want to sell your stuff as no-mod, go ahead, I don't like it but it's your choice - but for pete's sake at least advertise your stuff correctly 

 

[Qie Niangao]

5 hours ago, Rick Nightingale said:

The attitude of (some of) the creators and sellers in SL has been mentioned a few times.

In case you don't recall, you had a bit of a run-in with that creator in these forums a couple years ago, wherein they, uh, "encouraged" you to take up mesh-rigging to understand how creators sweat blood for swimwear (or something).

I tracked down the ad in-world and there are in fact two ads (for different packs of the product) that say "mod"—and one that's all picture with barely legible text that does say "no mod" so there's some excuse for the CS rep to first see that one. Now, I presume, that CS rep has gone to the creator with a conundrum: do we satisfy the customer by supplying what we promised? or stonewall her?

(Just in passing: Does anybody else abbreviate "copy" permission as "cop"? I'm fixated on it now like woo woo handwriting analysis.)

[AmeliaJ08]

6 hours ago, Rick Nightingale said:

The attitude of (some of) the creators and sellers in SL has been mentioned a few times. Here's a relevant example that happened to us a few hours ago...

My wife has been searching for the 'perfect' bikini for LaraX. She wants a specific shade, but so far has found nice bikinis in the wrong colour (and of course no-mod) or bikinis she doesn't like but in the right colour. Finally, today we went shopping and found one that was really nice, and had a colour in the range close enough if it could be tinted just a touch... and it was advertised as mod perms as were other items in the store! So she bought it, and we both felt happy that we had found another maker to support.

It was no-mod.

She contacted the store's CS, very politely saying what the problem was and asking for help. The quick response was "the advert says it is no-mod".

This is the advert:

 

As you can see, "mod" is clearly stated.

We immediately sent that picture, along with a polite, "please check the advert" reply. That was several hours ago now, with a couple more follow up messages from my wife.

Nothing. No further response from CS.

This is about typical of what we have experienced with the majority of sellers over the years, and people wonder why I'm a bit down on the attitude of many and quick to comment, perhaps cuttingly, on it.

My wife is out of pocket L$800 (she joined the paid group as well, to start getting store credit that will now never be used). We are both disappointed at yet another supposedly top-tier seller.

 

SL needs some customer protections, urgently.

I just don't know how this flies at all, legally speaking. "Buyer beware" isn't a thing when buying digital goods in many countries, even on platforms like this.

At the very least there should be some sort of mediation, some means of involving LL to obtain a refund for mis-sold goods or to handle other disputes.

 

[Rick Nightingale]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

In case you don't recall...

I have a vague recollection of the conversation, but I don't think I knew who it was (or I've forgotten). I'll look out the post out of curiosity.

I see what you mean about the adverts; I hadn't spotted the one to the left that says no-mod. I did a quick look around at other adverts, and even the MP store, before buying and a lot said they were mod. So I was even checking it wasn't a mistake before we bought. If the bikini had been on the MP we would have bought it there, just in case because at least there you can leave a review to attract attention if necessary.

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Does anybody else abbreviate "copy" permission as "cop"?

I hope they don't take the 'cop out' route, he he. We are giving it a day or so before trying again, to give them time to think about it (if they are bothering - perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically optimistic but I do try to give people chance). Not that there's anything we can do other than plead.

[Rick Nightingale]

@Qie Niangao Yes, the penny has dropped and two and two have been put together regarding who the conversation was with.

Sometimes I miss the blindingly obvious 🤣

[Luna Bliss]

5 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

SL needs some customer protections, urgently.

I just don't know how this flies at all, legally speaking. "Buyer beware" isn't a thing when buying digital goods in many countries, even on platforms like this.

At the very least there should be some sort of mediation, some means of involving LL to obtain a refund for mis-sold goods or to handle other disputes.

I paid 42 cents for this blouse that turned out, once I saw it inworld instead of on the MP, to look like shaet!  I'm taking this to the highest court in the land!!

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Does anybody else abbreviate "copy" permission as "cop"?

Well, IIRC "cop" is an abbreviation for "Chief of Police".

Found something: https://www.reddit.com/r/PLC/comments/d4u8u4/controllogix_v32_copy_cop_vs_synchronous_copy_cps/

Also, "COP" could be a mnemonic for an Assembly language function to copy memory

[AmeliaJ08]

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I paid 42 cents for this blouse that turned out, once I saw it inworld instead of on the MP, to look like shaet!  I'm taking this to the highest court in the land!!

It's not about the value nor is there any need to take it to court. You are afforded automatic rights when you buy goods online be they physical or digital, you don't have to involve a court.

Ripping someone off for a penny is still ripping them off though and in this case it's more like $2 isn't it? Either way you can't legally do this in many countries and I don't know how LL get away with it.

 

Edited May 29 by AmeliaJ08

[Rick Nightingale]

My wife's told me she's had an email notice of a IM, from the seller giving her a refund on the purchase price. We would rather have had what we bought (with mod perms); it is a really nice bikini just not quite the right colour which a gentle tinting would have solved. At least she has L$500 back of the L$800. Shame too that we (especially my wife) had to go through the disappointment of the issue.

Anyway, it's prompted me to finally start making mesh clothing. I'm already in Aditi testing the bikini bottoms; looking good so far. Maybe I'll start making and selling clothing if I get some practice in. I wonder what permissions I'll give them

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I paid 42 cents for this blouse that turned out, once I saw it inworld instead of on the MP, to look like shaet!  I'm taking this to the highest court in the land!!

It's not about the value nor is there any need to take it to court. You are afforded automatic rights when you buy goods online be they physical or digital, you don't have to involve a court.

Ripping someone off for a penny is still ripping them off though and in this case it's more like $2 isn't it? Either way you can't legally do this in many countries and I don't know how LL get away with it.

If vast numbers of people had unsatisfactory shopping experiences in SL, and if merchandise was expensive, you might have a point.
But most people ARE satisfied, and content is cheap.

Why should LL spend thousands of dollars monthly (or more) for additional staffing to remedy a problem that affects so few and where monetary damages amount to pennies in most cases? They should incur such costs simply due to the principle of the thing or due to the rare occurrence of a bad bikini?
And worse (for us) likely such increased costs for LL to police this would be passed on to us in some form.

Additionally, with nearly all content it's within our power to make sure we're getting what we want, so we don't need policing for a problem that is pretty much non-existent when we do our due diligence. Most content is labeled correctly (mod, no-mod), often we can view the content in a store or get a Demo (unlike much digital content, and so your comparison between other digital formats and SL doesn't hold), and if we can't see the items in a store or get a demo there are plenty of other choices available to us.

 

Edited May 29 by Luna Bliss

[Katherine Heartsong]

I just read a reply from 6 weeks ago to one of my points and have a follow up question, since my art is set to NO COPY, NO MOD, and TRANSFER.

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting? I have a resize script inside it to allow a user to click proportionally resize the piece to make it fit whatever wall they want, but in terms of a flat painting, what does mod allow anyone to do? Why would you need to mod it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but please explain what would be the point of setting my specific thing I sell to MOD?

(In the case of a real world painting I sell, go ahead, paint over it once hyou've bought it, sure. But that isn't possible in SL so why MOD in this specific example?

Thanks!

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I just read a reply from 6 weeks ago to one of my points and have a follow up question, since my art is set to NO COPY, NO MOD, and TRANSFER.

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting? I have a resize script inside it to allow a user to click proportionally resize the piece to make it fit whatever wall they want, but in terms of a flat painting, what does mod allow anyone to do? Why would you need to mod it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but please explain what would be the point of setting my specific thing I sell to MOD?

(In the case of a real world painting I sell, go ahead, paint over it once hyou've bought it, sure. But that isn't possible in SL so why MOD in this specific example?

Thanks!

The majority of the artwork I've purchased came without resize scripts. In that case, mod works fine. I still buy no mod art if I can find a place for it on my wall. I'm not that picky.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting?

Maybe they wanted to reuse the frame?

[Myriam Brianna]

6 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I just read a reply from 6 weeks ago to one of my points and have a follow up question, since my art is set to NO COPY, NO MOD, and TRANSFER.

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting? I have a resize script inside it to allow a user to click proportionally resize the piece to make it fit whatever wall they want, but in terms of a flat painting, what does mod allow anyone to do? Why would you need to mod it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but please explain what would be the point of setting my specific thing I sell to MOD?

(In the case of a real world painting I sell, go ahead, paint over it once hyou've bought it, sure. But that isn't possible in SL so why MOD in this specific example?

Thanks!

 

Setting it up for automated rezzing with a system like the multi-scene rezzer. Those generally require copy/mod rights. Resizing while discarding the original proportions or rotating / displacing the texture might also apply to artwork.

[Frionil Fang]

8 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting?

Link it to something else to save on LI, or if the frame is fancy enough, use the frame and not the picture.

I've made some no-mod stuff since it's just a bunch of invisible cube prims and scripts do the actual work, but I don't mind handing out a mod copy if someone absolutely needs it to save on attachment slots or LI. That is however on the condition they will have absolutely no support if my scripts break something, which is the point of no-mod in the first place... I'll admit being lazy and not wanting to field calls for help when someone links a script that is not designed to be linked into something invaluable and ruins it.

These days I try to account for that with my scripts, though, even if I didn't think of that 10 years ago.

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Myriam Brianna said:

Setting it up for automated rezzing with a system like the multi-scene rezzer. Those generally require copy/mod rights. Resizing while discarding the original proportions or rotating / displacing the texture might also apply to artwork.

I've created a lot of scenes to sell with multi-scene rezzers, and they didn't require mod rights in order to work. I haven't tried all rezzers available though -- do some not work unless the content is mod?

[Rick Nightingale]

26 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

please explain what would be the point of setting my specific thing I sell to MOD?

The above auto-rezzer and linking are perfect examples.

I said earlier that artwork is something I would consider a legitimate use of no-mod though, especially if it really is a one-off. Same as I would argue that real-life artwork should be protected for everyone's benefit. Obviously some scripting in it would be very helpful.

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've created a lot of scenes to sell with multi-scene rezzers, and they didn't require mod rights in order to work

How do the coordinates of the items get into the rezzer's setup? Don't you need to drop in a remote script into each item to communicate to the the rezzer's setup script? If so, for someone to set up their own rezzer, with things they've bought, the items need mod perms. Also, how would you get around the 10m-ish rez limit without being able to drop in a receiver and repositioner script?

I've made a lot of such systems (I use them to build and texture my own complex builds that I sell, just to put them together after uploading).

Edited May 29 by Rick Nightingale

[Luna Bliss]

23 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I just read a reply from 6 weeks ago to one of my points and have a follow up question, since my art is set to NO COPY, NO MOD, and TRANSFER.

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting? I have a resize script inside it to allow a user to click proportionally resize the piece to make it fit whatever wall they want, but in terms of a flat painting, what does mod allow anyone to do? Why would you need to mod it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but please explain what would be the point of setting my specific thing I sell to MOD?

(In the case of a real world painting I sell, go ahead, paint over it once hyou've bought it, sure. But that isn't possible in SL so why MOD in this specific example?

Thanks!

I can think of one. I've purchased a number of Scylla's art pieces, and sometimes I place them in a slightly dark environment where it looks better to up the glow just a bit so it's brighter. Sometimes too, in what's likely a 'normal' lighting condition I just think it looks better a bit brighter (sorry Scylla...lol).  This could disturb an artists vision though, to brighten up their painting.

However, I'm not sure you should allow your vision to be easily changed on account of a rare person like me wanting it a certain way.

[steeljane42]

49 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I just read a reply from 6 weeks ago to one of my points and have a follow up question, since my art is set to NO COPY, NO MOD, and TRANSFER.

What would anyone want to do with a flat 3:2 panel of birch wood with a JPG on one surface in terms of modding my one off painting? I have a resize script inside it to allow a user to click proportionally resize the piece to make it fit whatever wall they want, but in terms of a flat painting, what does mod allow anyone to do? Why would you need to mod it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but please explain what would be the point of setting my specific thing I sell to MOD?

(In the case of a real world painting I sell, go ahead, paint over it once hyou've bought it, sure. But that isn't possible in SL so why MOD in this specific example?

Thanks!

 

I'm not the one to usually buy art pieces in SL, but I do have a number of frames around my house and various other buildings I have around my region. Those buildings do vary in style quite a lot, especially ones used for the darker area in the skies. Would said art be something I'd like to have in there, and the frame complete off style from the rest and no-mod, then I would not buy it for this reason alone. Workaround it would be make your frame hide-able via script too, but unless it would be stated in the ad image or within first few lines of description text, I'd just look elsewhere after seeing the no-mod thing for it.

Second reason is the nature of the digital purchases in general. Sure, in rl if I buy a painting, I buy this exact copy unless stated otherwise, I put it somewhere I want to and that's about it. But the digital art... it's different. Say if I buy (I don't, but for the sake of example) some fancy desktop wallpapers/theme. I have my gaming desktop, my entertainment/SL desktop and a laptop. If I actually liked something enough to buy instead of using whatever is available free, then there's a good chance I'd want it on more than one machine. If I can't have it that way, then I won't buy it.

I see all SL purchases the same way. I might not "own it" per se, like I would own a real life painting which I'd be able to re-sell as I see fit, but rather a license for it for the personal use. If said license restricts me from using more messing with it (no-mod) and putting extra copies of it around (no-copy), then I just won't buy it.

In case of SL I still make some exceptions for something I just know I won't mod, like say... denim clothes. They don't mod too well, even the slight tint usually kills the texture, and bigger changes complete destroy the item. So if I like some denim after the demo, then can't say it matters to me if it's mor or isn't. But I think every single object in my 30k region which is 29k full at the moment is mod, and all, but 5-6 items (mostly sentimental value gifts from the past) are also copyable.

[Katherine Heartsong]

Thanks all. Re: frames. It's literally a flat prim with a birch texture on the sides that doesn't have the painting. I don't do frames (RL or SL) but I can see that as one use, thank you. And also lighting and linking, thugh for linking my pieces are all 1LI in size. Makes sense, thanks.

Note: The prints I sell on Saatchi you can frame there, if you like. My commission pieces on panel (or canvas sometimes) I let the buyer decide on framing. I can advise and recommend, but don't do it myself as I'd have to charge a markup on the work of the framer since I gave up building frames about 30 years ago for my traditional work. I prefer a raw edge these days, but not everyone does.

Edited May 29 by Katherine Heartsong