Diversity and Inclusion in Second Life

[Love Zhaoying]

I changed the Title, thus changing the "Original Post"!   (The previous title was "D&E"/"DEI"-centric, which could mislead people as to the purpose of my post.)

Restated question: How would you rate Diversity and Inclusion in Second Life?

--

Old Title and Question:

Previous original thread post: How would you rate Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Second Life?

 

Edited April 11 by Love Zhaoying

[Paul Hexem]

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

21 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

How would you rate Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Second Life?

 

All 3 of those are up to the parcel owner, so I can't rate them.

My personal parcels are full DEI. I even allow those dreaded kid avatars in unless I put down an adult couch, but then the rules are TOS/CS. 

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

All 3 of those are up to the parcel owner, so I can't rate them.

Fair enough, the question was completely open-ended on purpose.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

58 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

How would you rate Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Second Life?

 

In before the "Why isn't the Shogun TV series reboot inclusive of Feudal Japan's Afro-American population" rants.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

This rather depends what you mean by DEI (which in Canada, btw, is more generally "IDE," for whatever reason).

I think SL culture is pretty inclusive, on the whole, and gloriously diverse in some ways (especially with regard to gender and sexuality; less so maybe in other regards). Probably more so than RL. Is it equitable? That likely depends on your metric, but overall probably?

But DEI is generally used in the context of institutional policies, rather than as a description of a "culture" or "society."

The LL ToS and CS, and most especially the "toleration" clause in the latter, do, arguably, mandate DEI. Or would, if they were enforced as written, which of course they are not.

In practice, LL's policy of "tolerance" has tended to extend to the "intolerant," with a few exceptions for really egregious views, behaviours, etc. So violent and hateful misogyny is also tolerated here (in pretty much any form you want to name. I have receipts), as, to a slightly lesser degree, are homophobia, transphobia, racism, Islamophobia, and a number of other toxic perspectives.

And what that has meant in practice is that, despite the generally inclusive nature of SL, there are corners of it that are really pretty deeply uninclusive and hateful.

On the whole, I think LL gets it right. At least, I don't have any alternate suggestions that don't involve censorship (which I abhor). Probably, however, I wouldn't complain too loudly if the more extreme forms of misogyny -- snuff porn and Dolcett, for instance -- were actually suppressed, in line with the way in which extreme articulations of racism currently are.

Edited April 10 by Scylla Rhiadra
Subject-verb agreement. -1% on grade.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

43 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But DEI is generally used in the context of institutional policies, rather than as a description of a "culture" or "society."

Against my better judgment to even engage with this topic, I'll just pop in to agree with this.

It generally refers to corporate hiring, employee training and development, and promotion practices, so given that, it's more a question of how I'd rate DEI initiatives at LL itself. Since I don't have any insight to that or what their overall workforce even looks like, I'll refrain from answering.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

Outside of the LGBTQ+ side; SL has a very bad record on this. There's always been a very high tolerance for racism, and an even greater tolerance for misogyny. In recent years the racism has been less prevalent and we're starting to see some diversity show up. There is still the problem where you are more likely to be reprimanded for complaining about racism (on the notion of creating a hostile situation by objecting to being mistreated) than you are for being racist. The misogyny is more complicated. It's still pretty rampant but things like Gor and Vore seem less mainstream now than they used to be.

 

 

Edited April 10 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Persephone Emerald]

6 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Outside of the LGBTQ+ side; SL has a very bad record on this. There's always been a very high tolerance for racism, and an even greater tolerance for misogyny. In recent years the racism has been less prevalent and we're starting to see some diversity show up. The misogyny is more complicated. It's still pretty rampant but things like Gor and Vore seem less mainstream now than they used to be.

SL is very inclusive of the most diverse kinds of kink, racism, misogyny, simulated torture and vore play.

Edited April 10 by Persephone Emerald
Spelling

[Paul Hexem]

53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In practice, LL's policy of "tolerance" has tended to extend to the "intolerant," with a few exceptions for really egregious views, behaviours, etc

One of my favorite things about SL is how much freedom of expression we have (outside of the forums, anyway).

And I maintain that it's better that way- those really bad people with really bad ideas are like mold and will get worse if out of sight.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Against my better judgment to even engage with this topic, I'll just pop in to agree with this.

It generally refers to corporate hiring, employee training and development, and promotion practices, so given that, it's more a question of how I'd rate DEI initiatives at LL itself. Since I don't have any insight to that or what their overall workforce even looks like, I'll refrain from answering.

While I don't disagree, I will say it is unfortunate that this is the normal situation and/or understanding. (I live in Florida, for context in the RW/RL.)

Possibly, if it comes up more I will better explain my POV and how it led to my OP. But not yet! 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

SL is very inclusive of the most diverse kinds of kink, racism, misogyny, simulated torture and vore play.

I find your answer both compelling and fascinating, consider the not infrequent, insistent calls for LL to "embrace/acknowledge the adult side", etc. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

While I don't disagree, I will say it is unfortunate that this is the normal situation and/or understanding. (I live in Florida, for context in the RW/RL.)

Possibly, if it comes up more I will better explain my POV and how it led to my OP. But not yet! 

If you mean diversity within SL itself, then I wouldn't really call that DEI. Like the other words getting yeeted around in order to scare people and muddy the waters, they usually refer to something rather specific, despite the attempt by others to make us all freak out and fight as a distraction (without going into detail, one of the other boogieman words referred specifically to things primarily taught in post grad/law school, for example, but we see how that worked out).

If you want my opinion on SL's overall diversity, though - it's meh. Better in some ways than others.

Edited April 10 by Ayashe Ninetails
Clarifyin'

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

OOP, LAMP, RSS, ATOM, SSL, AJAX, HTML5, SaaS, IoT, BTC, Doge, RSA, DL, ML, AI, SJW, CRT, VR... I guess we have another buzzthingie du jour, DEI. I'm pretty sure, this too shall pass.

Edited April 10 by Arduenn Schwartzman
Added picture of old man yelling at cloud

[Scylla Rhiadra]

30 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

And I maintain that it's better that way- those really bad people with really bad ideas are like mold and will get worse if out of sight.

Well, this tends to be my view: bannings just drive stuff underground. There are advantages to that -- people don't have the same freedom to actually advocate for misogyny, racism, or what-have-you, but on the whole I'd rather that the festering pustules were visible. I don't want to have anything to do with someone who holds egregiously racist or homophobic views, or who can only get it up if he's imagining he is inflicting pain or humiliation, so I find it quite useful when people make their toxicity clear and open.

33 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

One of my favorite things about SL is how much freedom of expression we have (outside of the forums, anyway).

DEI isn't actually "against" those things, in theory anyway. It's actually about amplifying the voices of those who are seldom heard or seen. DEI doesn't say "Don't hire white guys!"; it says "Be more diverse in those whom you hire." In practice, that does mean hiring fewer white guys, but that's mostly because they've had advantages for hiring in the past.

How it works in practice is, of course, sometimes a different thing.

[Love Zhaoying]

"Most" definitions I find of DEI "do" fall into usages related to "organizations" (work, school, public institutions, etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion

If it comes up more, I will search for more broadly-scoped definitions.  To me, it makes very little sense if D&E/DEI is only defined in the context of a workforce / school / public institution, because we "live our lives" mostly outside of work, school, etc. 

In the case of Second Life - unless we were to say for example "Second Life IS Linden Lab", one should hope that Second Life enjoys some level of "natural" diversity and inclusion since SL itself "is" inclusive by its nature.

So in the context of my OP, I did not intend D&E/DEI merely as a "corporate" (or educational / public) concept, but more of a "lived", representation of the ideals that D&E/DEI represent.

I hope that helps!

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

An important point to consider with regard to DEI in a corporate context is that it's probably mostly not about boards of directors or CEOs or shareholders suddenly "catching" wokeness, as though it were a brain virus.

Mostly DEI is adopted by corporations because they think it makes good business sense to do so. It may be that they want to score "virtue points" with parts of their target audience, or that they want to encourage a more diverse and broad job application pool. Perhaps, like Disney, they've determined that employee retention is improved when they practice elements of DEI.

There can be lots of reasons why a corporation might embrace a DEI policy, but I doubt many of them have a lot to do with ideology or ethics. They are corporations, not people, and their sole reason for existence is generally to generate a profit. If they decide to reflect diversity better in their hiring practices, it's almost invariably because there are sound business reasons for doing so.

And that applies to LL. If LL has tried to increase the visibility of POC in SL, for instance, it's mostly likely because they recognize that that's a demographic they haven't properly tapped yet. If they are very much pro-LGBTQ+ (which they certainly are), that might in part reflect the makeup of the company, but it also has a lot to do with the fact that the LGBTQ+ community in SL is huge and important.

So I think that people who are yelling at corporations for "caving in to wokeness" are barking up the wrong tree. What they are doing, in fact, is finding ways to maximize profits and improve operations.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

An important point to consider with regard to DEI in a corporate context is that it's probably mostly not about boards of directors or CEOs or shareholders suddenly "catching" wokeness, as though it were a brain virus.

Mostly DEI is adopted by corporations because they think it makes good business sense to do so. It may be that they want to score "virtue points" with parts of their target audience, or that they want to encourage a more diverse and broad job application pool. Perhaps, like Disney, they've determined that employee retention is improved when they practice elements of DEI.

There can be lots of reasons why a corporation might embrace a DEI policy, but I doubt many of them have a lot to do with ideology or ethics. They are corporations, not people, and their sole reason for existence is generally to generate a profit. If they decide to reflect diversity better in their hiring practices, it's almost invariably because there are sound business reasons for doing so.

And that applies to LL. If LL has tried to increase the visibility of POC in SL, for instance, it's mostly likely because they recognize that that's a demographic they haven't properly tapped yet. If they are very much pro-LGBTQ+ (which they certainly are), that might in part reflect the makeup of the company, but it also has a lot to do with the fact that the LGBTQ+ community in SL is huge and important.

So I think that people who are yelling at corporations for "caving in to wokeness" are barking up the wrong tree. What they are doing, in fact, is finding ways to maximize profits and improve operations.

If I may draw some fairly obvious conclusions: what's good for business is good for LL, and what's good for LL is good for Second Life.  #FightMe on that!

I will admit that I tend to conflate in my own mind, D&E and "ERG's" (Employee Resource / Engagement Groups) that are centered around diversity and inclusion.  This is because my own RL company emphasizes both: an emphasis on D&E AND also strong support for individual Employee groups focused on Women, Veterans, POC, LGBTQIA+, etc.

Anyway, to draw a half-assed conclusion:  If a company - such as LL - were to foster an atmosphere of respect for different cultures and diversity, wouldn't / shouldn't that also have at least SOME positive impact in its ability to attract, keep, and support customers from different cultures and areas of diversity?

I hope so.

 

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

I think all the Lindens I know about IRL are white.  I know quite a few female lindens, and I think somebody once told me that Torley was non-neurotypical.  I can guess that LL probably has more GLBT+ representation than many companies (I'm bisexual, so my gaydar is not that sharp).  I don't think I know any lindens who are black, asian, native American, hispanic, etc.

As far as people who use SL?  I have no idea, at all.  I don't really even worry about it.  Your avatar means a different thing than your RL race.  Some black people use white avatars, some white people use black avatars, everybody uses furry avatars sometimes.  Black humans have to deal with racism, red lining, and more police brutality.  Black avatars?  Not so much.  We don't have a history of black avatars being enslaved by white colonizers (unless you count some raceplay kink places, but I don't count that, because it's just a story there).  How you think your RL identity relates to your avatar is your business, though.  I'm beyond apathetic about the RL identities of SL avatars.

[Love Zhaoying]

27 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

CRT

When I was a cub, we used CRT's! Unless you mean something else.

But seriously, my intent in this thread is not to get into arguments about "woke", CRT, etc.  - I get enough of that merely by existing as a living hoo-mon in Florida.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said:

everybody uses furry avatars sometimes

I like this!

1 minute ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said:

Black avatars?  Not so much.

I know a lot of black avatars who would disagree with you.

IJS (I'm just saying).

Anyway - the main question I tried to ask is "how are we doing" on a diversity / equity basis, not so much an "acceptance / lack of hate" basis.

Great points!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

28 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"Most" definitions I find of DEI "do" fall into usages related to "organizations" (work, school, public institutions, etc.).

Yep, because that's where it basically originated. The acronym/name may be somewhat recent (and how and why it became that, I do not know), but we used to basically call that "diversity training" back in the day. Companies (and schools and hospitals and universities and and and) eventually realized they had to diversify their workforce for a whole host of reasons - everything from countering ageism to ensuring there's pay equity to providing adequate family leave to understanding the importance of accessibility in the workplace (that's a biggie, and companies are still struggling with that).

And speaking of which, before this thread flies off into another round of gender wars (👀), I'll also add that DEI does include age, veteran status, and people with disabilities.

The culture of SL is a different topic, though. Similar, but different, as we'd no longer be looking at the organization (LL) and how it's structured, but the diversity of the platform itself.

I do think LL does a good job of encouraging platform diversity, though - just looking at their site, promos, YouTube channel, Flickr and social media, blog, etc.

Edited April 10 by Ayashe Ninetails
Clarifyin'

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yep, because that's where it basically originated.

Yes, ok..

5 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

The culture of SL is a different topic, though. Similar, but different, as we'd no longer be looking at the organization (LL) and how it's structured, but the diversity of the platform itself.

I tried pitifully to go into this in my subsequent post above.

Adding: If indeed somehow DEI is rooted in / originates in the ACTUAL "woke movement" then, that's a good thing! (Everyone who disagrees can go do something unpleasant. Respectfully.)

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

the main question I tried to ask is "how are we doing" on a diversity / equity basis, not so much an "acceptance / lack of hate" basis.

I think the niche groups that make virtual homes in SL are, in general, more accepting and inclusive than the average population anywhere on earth.  The platform itself seems to draw those types in - the ones looking for alternative ways to express themselves or a place to belong.  Those looking for connections beyond the places they live seem to want their world to be bigger and more diverse.  Why log on if you are so happy with your small, closed, immediate, real-life community?  SL doesn't seem like the place to be if you only want to find people just like yourself.

Those that do only want to find people just like themselves tend to leave in disgust and call all SL residents freaks and pervs. 

Like omg! People there play different races and genders than they are in real life.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'll also add that DEI does include things like age, veteran status, and people with disabilities.

You're so darned quotable, I made a separate post in case you were to miss this in an edited response! Yes, my original desire to cover this today could be since my own company sent a company-wide DEI email about disabilities (a panel discussion entitled, "The 'Why' Behind Disability Education").