"Experience profile" TP systems - Anyone else not keen?

[Kerri Macarthur]

I've been away from SL for a while and coming back these seem to be everywhere. 

Instead of "sit to tp" there's this new system that asks for lots of permissions. Is anyone else put off by this list?

 

Once permission is granted you will not see this message again for this experience unless it is revoked from the experience profile.

Scripts associated with this experience will be able to do the following on regions where the experience is active: 

    Act on your control inputs
    Animate your avatar
    Attach to your avatar
    Track your camera
    Control your camera
    Teleport you
    Force your avatar to sit
    Change your environment settings
Is this OK?

Sounds like once you give your perms to this object, anything owned by the creator - anywhere on the whole grid would be able to do all those things in the list.

Personally I don't like that.

[Qie Niangao]

3 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Sounds like once you give your perms to this object, anything owned by the creator - anywhere on the whole grid would be able to do all those things in the list.

Definitely not "anywhere on the whole grid" but only (as the message says) "on regions where the experience is active".  (There are Linden-owned Experiences that are indeed "grid-scope" and I understand a very few grid-scope Experiences were granted to the original beta testers—but I decided to stick with the land-scope version myself, to avoid any possible abuse back when everything was still being tested.)

Most annoyingly to those of us who actually develop Experience scripts: that list of permissions is fixed, regardless of whether that particular Experience will ever use more than a single one of the permissions. (From the standpoint of developing the Experience feature itself, this makes sense because otherwise there's a whole extra level of complexity to manage what happens if an existing Experience wants to change the list of permissions it will actually use. Like, how to even make a user interface for controlling that? Soon it would get as complex for users as the permissions systems in Android and iOS.)

Finally, Experience permissions are specifically and uniquely able to be turned off by the user, effortlessly, in whatever your favorite viewer has done to this UI:

(As you can see, I agree to lots of Experiences, most of which I have no recollection of now. Probably some would be embarrassing if I had any SL shame.)

[BilliJo Aldrin]

It would be better if you were told what the experience would control, instead of what it could control. I always decine the experience, and if that means i can’t enter the sim, oh well, too bad for me

[AmeliaJ08]

I have encountered a few 'experience' teleporters where it really is a bit overkill since it was just a teleporter (mainly those awful elevators that just teleport you instead of being elevators!) but aside from that I don't see the system used a lot.

It does have other uses too of course and is quite a powerful system but I'd say it's still quite rare to actually encounter it.

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I have encountered a few 'experience' teleporters where it really is a bit overkill since it was just a teleporter…

Oh, I guess I have seen those, too. I think I've only used it in collision-based "portal" teleporters, but even touch-based would still be a win for long range inter-region travel (because non-owners can take advantage of llTeleportAgent only in Experience scripts).

Now that you mention it, I probably use it more than most because I have such spread-out destinations sharing a single land-scope Experience. And because they're not commercial, I can just ignore the users who fall through experience_permissions_denied() on the premise they'll likely not much enjoy the content at the destination anyway.

[Gabriele Graves]

I've shared my feelings on this a few times before so I'll be relatively brief.  I don't accept experiences except where I am forced to by LL and then I generally avoid those regions once I become aware of those stealth experiences which cannot be revoked (very poor form in my opinion).

My reasons are about giving up control of my avatar to the whims of another whom I haven't met and therefore have no established trust with.  If the experience is necessary, I don't mind being sent home though obviously places that allow me to wander anyway are very much appreciated.

I don't mind (and have never minded) popups asking for my permission to do things when I interact with objects in the way that some find inconvenient, in fact I like that I get to choose on a case by case basis when I choose to interact with something and not at any other time.

That said, these days I do use collision-based experience teleporters for portals on my own lands.  These are for private use only though and are set to only allow my partner and I access.  These portals don't offer the experience to others and wont teleport them should they search and join the experience manually.  Of course, we both can always trust that I will not abuse the experience and so there are no issues with us using them.

In addition, I don't enable anyone else's experiences on my lands.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Rowan Amore]

57 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

stealth experiences which cannot be revoked (very poor form in my opinion).

You can revoke and block.an experience you've previously enabled.

To leave an experience by revoking its permissions, you may either Forget or Block it:

Choose Me > Experiences... from the top menu bar. The Experiences window opens.

Click the Allowed tab on the Experiences window.

Find the name of the experience you wish to leave, and click its name. The Experience Profile window opens.

In the Experience Profile window, click either Forget or Block.

Tip: If you choose to Forget an experience, it may ask for permissions again the next time you interact with it. If you choose to Block it, the experience cannot ask you for permissions again until you unblock it on the Blocked tab of the Experiences window.

[Gabriele Graves]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You can revoke and block.an experience you've previously enabled.

You cannot revoke or block an LL experience and that is what I meant by stealth experience.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Polenth Yue]

Collision portals can be useful, but there should be an alternative. An easy way would be to have them bring up the map on click as well as using the experience to teleport if you walk into them. That way, people have a chance to look around and decide if they want to trust the experience. They don't require the experience just to get to the bit that interests them. It'd also help if owners included a comment in their rules notecards about what their experience does.

[Qie Niangao]

Sometimes I offer alternate ways of reaching a destination, and sometimes I explain what the overall Experience is for—but sometimes not and very intentionally not. Some of the fun of exploring can be uncertainty, encountering successive surprises, and even a little apprehension about what may happen to the explorer just around that mysterious corner. If folks don't want that, they're better off not venturing further.

That said, I never use RLV, which can be way more unpredictable than anything an Experience can do.

[ETA: I also meant to comment that sometimes I wish I could limit the Experience to just those permissions I really want but unfortunately can only be requested through an Experience: there's just no way to ask for them individually. These include PERMISSION_TELEPORT and the unnamed(?) permission to call llSitOnLink, which weirdly are the Experience-permitted things my scripts do most often. (As I mentioned, though, I understand why the Experience feature was easier to implement with a stable comprehensive set of permissions.]

Edited December 11, 2023 by Qie Niangao

[Candide LeMay]

I generally accept all land based experiences when requested. They can't really do anything substantial like change my inventory or take my money AND their effect is limited to the parcel I'm on, so I don't worry about it. And the grant is very easy to remove if I never needed to do that (that has yet to happen).

[Paul Hexem]

Experiences can't hurt you, can't affect you once you leave the parcel they're on, and you can easily leave them at any time.

If you have a problem with them, file a JIRA with LL and ask for all the useful and harmless functions to be removed from behind them.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

24 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Experiences can't hurt you, can't affect you once you leave the parcel they're on, and you can easily leave them at any time.

THAT is exactly the kind of "Griefer's Charter BS Disinformation", that leaves some people paranoid bout Experience permissions.

An experience can attach an object to your avatar, once attached, the scripts/animations in the object can affect your avatar, in a variety of ways, stealthed attachments with tracking code, griefer style deformer weapons, etc.

Yes you can easily leave an Experience,, *IF* you know how, but noobs for example are NOT told how when confronted with that scary popup.

 

And don't get me started on the possibilities of having an experience on multiple parcels, on multiple regions, designed to allow multiple objects to teleport you from one parcel to another, in a rapid circuit, so you are too busy staring at teleport progress bars to be ABLE to pull up the "kick this griefer crap to the kerb" Experience window.

 

Speaking of disinformation.

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

That said, I never use RLV, which can be way more unpredictable than anything an Experience can do.

No, it's not, RL can't touch you unless you are using an RLV enabled viewer, and wearing an RLV relay attachment. Full stop.

Most relays can be set to "ask", so participation is NOT all or nothing, or always automatic, unlike an Experience, where you have exactly NO control once you click that "accept" button.

 

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

a little apprehension about what may happen to the explorer just around that mysterious corner. If folks don't want that, they're better off not venturing further.

And THAT sort of "by leaving your Belli-Hovel, you have given me tacit consent to grief the hell out of you! Bwahahahahahaaa!" thinking is why many will automatically refuse Experience requests from people they don't know or trust.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

32 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

No, it's not, RL can't touch you unless you are using an RLV enabled viewer, and wearing an RLV relay attachment. Full stop.

How is doing those things to enable RLV different from granting Experience permissions?

Some folks will enable RLV but fret about granting Experience permissions. They're opening themselves up to much more unpredictability with an open RLV relay than any Experience permission. But that's on them; the reason it's a question for a landowner is that relying on those RLV features for special functions requires visitors to enable RLV if they want to participate which, again, opens them to greater unpredictability than an Experience, and not neatly partitioned into separate Experiences, hence potentially enabling other functions over which the landowner has no control.

45 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

And THAT sort of "by leaving your Belli-Hovel, you have given me tacit consent to grief the hell out of you! Bwahahahahahaaa!" thinking is why many will automatically refuse Experience requests from people they don't know or trust.

If they're not comfortable disabling an Experience they found unpleasant, they really shouldn't enable Experiences. Not even the ones I offer on Bellisseria.

[Gabriele Graves]

Someone inevitably comes along (often the same someone, over and over) and jumps to the same conclusion over and over that the only possible reason a person will not accept experiences is due to an unjustified fear of being hurt by them.

Hint: For some people it hasn't got anything to do with fear of being hurt by them.  Sometimes the only reason people don't want to accept experiences is because they just prefer not to let others control what happens with their avatar in so far it is possible to limit that within SL.  That's it, nothing more.

Some people even have full knowledge of what is/is not capable with the system.  They still aren't going to accept them and that's a valid choice no matter what others may think about that.

It seems to me though this isn't about a failure/unwillingness to understand but more about belittling the choices of other people, especially given the phrasing often used.
 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Zalificent Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It seems to me though this isn't about a failure/unwillingness to understand but more about belittling the choices of other people, especially given the phrasing often used

I remember. from previous threads on this topic, one poster, who basically pushed the argument that ...

 

"I'm an Artiste! My glorious vision is better than yours, by teleporting to my parcel, you give up all rights to control your own SL, and grant me unlimited permission to grief you, via forced attachments, forced camera movement, forced teleports, forced sits, and EEP settings, as I see fit, in the Holy and Sacred Name of ART-Fascism, because i'm better than you mere proles!"

 

The mere suggestion that people might not WANT their EEP settings messed with because they have less than perfect 20/20 vision and want to be able to SEE their SL, would drive the poster into fits of Artistic Rage!

 

[Qie Niangao]

Could be worse. They could eject them from the parcel altogether.

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Qie Niangao said:

Could be worse. They could eject them from the parcel altogether.

For me, if people would just put up a sign saying "I'm an asshat", they wouldn't have to.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

35 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

the reason it's a question for a landowner is that relying on those RLV features for special functions requires visitors to enable RLV

As a general rule, landowners who use RLV control zones, are NOT "unpredictable", and are catering specifically to the RLV enabled crowd, not DEMANDING that everyone have RLV because "I'm better than you and this is my ART!".

 

35 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

not neatly partitioned into separate Experiences, hence potentially enabling other functions over which the landowner has no control.

Why the hell should a landowner have "control" over MY viewer's settings and my avatar's movement, eep, camera settings and seating options, with a one-time blanket grant.

For somebody who has publicly admitted, in their posts that they don't use RLV, have never used RLV, will never use RLV, and know almost nothing about RLV, you sure do talk a lot of crap about it.

The three biggest pieces of crap, that you keep spouting are the foolish assumption that enabling RLV in a viewer, means you are open to everything, in an "unpredictable" manner, an opinion that is blatantly FALSE, and assuming that having an RLV enabled viewer automatically means you have a relay on at all, never mind an "open relay", which is also blatantly FALSE, and assuming that having a relay on means it's automatically "open" and subject to "unpredictability, which is also BLATANTLY FALSE.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Qie Niangao]

4 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

For somebody who has publicly admitted, in their posts that they don't use RLV, have never used RLV, will never use RLV, and know almost nothing about RLV, you sure do talk a lot of crap about it.

That's simply factually incorrect. I've used RLV. I've written scripts that use RLV. I know perfectly well its features and its limitations. Now, after Experiences are an option, I see no circumstances under which I'll need to use or develop content for RLV again. That doesn't mean I object to others using it or developing content for it, but it's not the functionality I want for myself nor for folks using my content.

Just in passing, I also don't object to folks who choose not to accept my Experience scripts, any more than I object to folks who don't visit my land. They're still welcome to visit at any time, and as long as they don't bother anybody else they won't get booted even if they don't accept any of the Experiences. There's still stuff to explore, some of which might make sense even without the Experience.

12 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Why the hell should a landowner have "control" over MY viewer's settings and my avatar's movement, eep, camera settings and seating options, with a one-time blanket grant.

No, it's a question of a landowner's responsibility for the range of unpredictable effects the visitor may encounter as a result of participating with content on the land. Of course the visitor has complete control either way, with RLV or an Experience, but a landowner can limit the effect of what the Experience can do, and that Experience can be (and usually is) limited to that owner's land. With RLV, if something the landowner offers requires the visitor to enable an RLV function to participate, the effects are not limited to the content the landowner controls, but rather the functions are enabled everywhere, and landowners are thus indirectly responsible for unpredictability they cannot limit.

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

THAT is exactly the kind of "Griefer's Charter BS Disinformation", that leaves some people paranoid bout Experience permissions.

Conversely; Paranoid, hyperbole filled posts like this are why people panic when they see an experience popup instead of reading and understanding what's going on. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Conversely; Paranoid, hyperbole filled posts like this are why people panic when they see an experience popup instead of reading and understanding what's going on. 

No hyperbole or paranoia there, Experiences can do all of those things, that's WHY there is a scary popup. I know what Experiences CAN do, I still use them, when they come from trustworthy sources, such as the AVSitter experience.

But if I got a popup asking me to authorise an experience from Griefertrash.Trollscum, then no, not accepting that.

People SHOULD be wary of what experiences they accept. Not everyone who writes experience code is a "nice person of good intent", some are goose stepping little fascists, who think THEIR art/creativity/spewtube lolz video/whatever outweighs everyone else's personal preferences.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

26 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Conversely; Paranoid, hyperbole filled posts like this are why people panic when they see an experience popup instead of reading and understanding what's going on. 

Count your blessings. They're starting to make experiences look like a very sophisticated AI-driven security system.

[Kerri Macarthur]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

People SHOULD be wary of what experiences they accept. Not everyone who writes experience code is a "nice person of good intent", some are goose stepping little fascists, who think THEIR art/creativity/spewtube lolz video/whatever outweighs everyone else's personal preferences.

 

I think this is the core of the argument. Giving up control of so much to a person who you don't know that could use this on you in the future.
I mean, lets look at the actual conditions one by one:

Once permission is granted you will not see this message again for this experience unless it is revoked from the experience profile.

So we can expect to lose control over our actions anytime in the future, unless we manually revoke each and every permission.

Scripts associated with this experience will be able to do the following on regions where the experience is active: 

And not just in the location we accepted these requests. Literally anywhere on the grid that has one of the same experience scripts.

Then we get to the actual level of control they have:

    Act on your control inputs
    Animate your avatar
    Attach to your avatar
    Track your camera
    Control your camera
    Teleport you
    Force your avatar to sit
    Change your environment settings

I mean, come on. Who in their right mind would allow all of this at any time and in any place? Its basically losing control over your whole sl. Its possible you could be on another sim minding your own business and randomly your avatar would do its own thing, deform, start wearing attachments, tp somewhere you didn't choose and be forced to sit on some object!

Is this OK?

HELL NO!

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:42 PM, Kerri Macarthur said:

I'm well aware we don't need a hud to dictate our game/rp.. but it would be nice to have some features like being able to run a bite animation with other players and maybe some effects and stuff.

 

What you were asking for? In that other thread? That's what "experiences" do. That's why they exist.