Women's expectations: Unrealistic

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

Incel literally stands for "involuntarily celibate", right? How is that not "men who have problems finding a partner"?

For sure I will regret this, but:

The term was started by a girl, and was sort of despair. It was picked up by poorly-socialized guys who felt they were owed attention and sex by pretty girls. I don't know if these guys even tried to form a relationship with just average, ordinary girls. Most do seem to have attitudes and relationship skills that would make it unlikely most girls with good emotional and mental health would even talk to them though.

[CaerolleClaudel]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Perhaps. Missing is the fact the first person who brought it up, was conflating everything (not sure if they were trying to blow up the thread, or are just not knowing the history and normal usage of the term.)

who would that be? 'cause I am wondering if you are referring to my post about that list. which I stand by. I was not talking about the thread, and I for sure was not trying to get it locked, I was just commenting on that list, esp since it seemed to held up as what were the unreasonable goals of women, which *is* the topic of this thread, if I understand it correcty

if you mean something else, I apologize, sorry...

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I checked the thread, and you brought up the word first, followed by another.

Darn! (I thought it was someone else, sorry.)

 

 

I already commented on my post, and I still stand by my assessment of that list. You or anyone else may disagree with that assessment (after all it is opinion to a large degree, but here is another word you will dislike, misogyny, and I see that in the list too) but it looks pure incel to me.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

who would that be? 'cause I am wondering if you are referring to my post about that list. which I stand by. I was not talking about the thread, and I for sure was not trying to get it locked, I was just commenting on that list, esp since it seemed to held up as what were the unreasonable goals of women, which *is* the topic of this thread, if I understand it correcty

if you mean something else, I apologize, sorry...

Yes, and

1 minute ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I already commented on my post, and I still stand by my assessment of that list. You or anyone else may disagree with that assessment (after all it is opinion to a large degree, but here is another word you will dislike, misogyny, and I see that in the list too) but it looks pure incel to me.

Yes, and I did not know what you meant by it, so I asked in this post:

33 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But exactly what do you mean by it?

A couple choices:

1) The people saying it sound like "incels" for saying it (saying the things is bad)

2) The things being said are what "incels" believe and say (the things being said are not true)

 

 

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Incel literally stands for "involuntarily celibate", right? How is that not "men who have problems finding a partner"?

For sure I will regret this, but:

The term was started by a girl, and was sort of despair. It was picked up by poorly-socialized guys who felt they were owed attention and sex by pretty girls. I don't know if these guys even tried to form a relationship with just average, ordinary girls. Most do seem to have attitudes and relationship skills that would make it unlikely most girls with good emotional and mental health would even talk to them though.

Anyone who blames others for their problems instead of assuming responsibility deserves some push back. This is what those who are Incels do -- they blame others (primarily women) for issues they should be addressing themselves. And they can become quite hostile -- even murdering people (as has been documented).

Whenever you blame others you essentially want to dominate and control them...make them fit your needs while not giving them choice or agency over their own lives.  It's full-on abuse and should be called out as such.

Unfortunately we encounter these people in 2nd life.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[CaerolleClaudel]

32 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But exactly what do you mean by it?

A couple choices:

1) The people saying it sound like "incels" for saying it (saying the things is bad)

2) The things being said are what "incels" believe and say (the things being said are not true)

 

The answer to the first depends; I cannot recall if the person who posted the list put it forth as views with which they agreed, or if they just posted it as an example of things that someone thinks men believe about women. I was talking specifically about that list, though, I did not comment on the poster themselves.

And wrt to second, yes, absolutely.

[CaerolleClaudel]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes, and

Yes, and I did not know what you meant by it, so I asked in this post:

 

answered

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

You know, I've never been particularly empathetic, but it's always struck me as odd how this word always seems to come up whenever anyone says anything even remotely on the topic of "men's issues with women".

Gender battles are stupid. It's stupid to make assumptions about individuals based on anecdotal experience and what the internet is telling you. 

[CaerolleClaudel]

I do want to apologize for getting engaged with this thread. I probably should just shut up, as I am not really a forum regular. I will of course respond to any posts directed at me though.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

15 hours ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

 

Research on swiping habits shows men use dating apps to search for
sex or short-term relationships, while for women, it’s more about
validation and affirmation of their attractiveness.

This would frankly explain a lot about SL to.

My joke from earlier that the the most unrealistic expectation is to think it's not a hook-up app, and the other unrealistic expectation is to think it is... is not really a joke.

It's two very different sets of assumptions over what SL is for.

 

I enjoy SL as dress-up play. I used to enjoy socializing and discussion groups as well (too many (actually just a very few but memory scarring) guys kept IMing sexting talk at me during those though - even during a discussion about inappropriate conduct the guy agreeing with me in local chat would be IMing graphic sexting...). I have a lot of fun with my extreme looks and messing around with my virtual home and avatars.

Other people view this as a sexting hookup app, etc.

My "unrealistic expectation" is that I have none. I'm not here for that.

Edited September 18, 2023 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Even in the case of your first example, it hasn't been used sympathetically in this thread at all.

 

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Are we conflating meanings of "incel"?

Meaning 1) "a guy who can't get laid".

Meaning 2) "someone who is angry and blames certain segments of society because they can't get laid, often considered part of a potentially dangerous group easily swayed by conspiracy theories", etc.

I'll go back to something I said early in the discussion in either this thread or the one that preceded it.

I have no issues with awkward or socially inept folks - they can actually be quite endearing when they're trying and fumbling about. And I think finding them endearing is a common reaction.

It's the entitled ones that are an issue. The meaning 2 above. They're actually often very socially savvy within their own community of enraged and entitled fellow conspirators.

The awkward person doesn't know what they're doing and is trying to figure it all out. The entitled person knows what EVERYONE ELSE is doing to them and is demanding they all change. The difference is usually immediately obvious to anyone who encounters the two.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

12 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But I don't think that nice men are rare at all, because I run across them all the time.

I hate this new "slang term" of "Nice Guy" because it grammatically confuses the heck out of an "old person" like me.

Now I know why my parent's generation would roll their eyes when we would call something we liked "bad" or a hot guy was "cool" back in the 80s.

Yeah 'actual' nice folks are more common. But the bad ones leave a scarring impact. I don't like that my SL conduct changed as a result of them despite them being the minority of my interactions - but it has.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

I hate this new "slang term" of "Nice Guy" because it grammatically confuses the heck out of an "old person" like me.

Now I know why my parent's generation would roll their eyes when we would call something we liked "bad" or a hot guy was "cool" back in the 80s.

Yeah 'actual' nice folks are more common. But the bad ones leave a scarring impact. I don't like that my SL conduct changed as a result of them despite them being the minority of my interactions - but it has.

 

I would say that Alice Cooper had it right with his song "No More Mr. Nice Guy" back in 1973, but recently he's disrespected the Trans community so "not a fan" - weird that someone like Alice Cooper could ever be controversial.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Phil Deakins]

1 hour ago, Akane Nacht said:

I was on briefly and saw your message. You seem charming. Let's have tea sometime and reminisce about our wild youths in SL 😇

What a good idea

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

I hate this new "slang term" of "Nice Guy" because it grammatically confuses the heck out of an "old person" like me.

Now I know why my parent's generation would roll their eyes when we would call something we liked "bad" or a hot guy was "cool" back in the 80s.

Yeah 'actual' nice folks are more common. But the bad ones leave a scarring impact. I don't like that my SL conduct changed as a result of them despite them being the minority of my interactions - but it has.

 

70s here and same.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

22 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

I enjoy SL as dress-up play. I used to enjoy socializing and discussion groups as well (too many (actually just a very few but memory scarring) guys kept ...

... sigh.

I'm going to quote myself to point out a flaw in my assumptions that really annoys me.

I typed "too many". Reality is I could probably count those guys on one hand, maybe half that hand. But the impact of it really bugged me so much that I changed the way I act in SL and I have these reflexive reactions now that start as judgmental until I can back away and think...

That... really gets on my nerves. But I don't see myself undoing it any time soon. I always hesitate in SL now. Sad thing is I came to SL to find a space where, unlike in RL, I wouldn't be doing that.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

I think Women just need to lower their expectations.

 

[Luna Bliss]

9 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

35 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

I enjoy SL as dress-up play. I used to enjoy socializing and discussion groups as well (too many (actually just a very few but memory scarring) guys kept ...

... sigh.

I'm going to quote myself to point out a flaw in my assumptions that really annoys me.

I typed "too many". Reality is I could probably count those guys on one hand, maybe half that hand. But the impact of it really bugged me so much that I changed the way I act in SL and I have these reflexive reactions now that start as judgmental until I can back away and think...

That... really gets on my nerves. But I don't see myself undoing it any time soon. I always hesitate in SL now. Sad thing is I came to SL to find a space where, unlike in RL, I wouldn't be doing that.

Yeah it's a protective mechanism -- remembering the bad experiences even if few in number.

There's ways to get out of that, at least much of the time, but it's not easy -- techniques that cause staying in the present moment to become habitual.  Meditation, for example. Chanting. Creating.

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The actual point of so doing was to differentiate those viewpoints from the entirely legitimate plight of men who are having a hard time finding a match.

You and I must have read those posts very differently.

I was actually unaware of who first coined it, those were interesting reads. Either way, I still stand by my point- I think there are better words to describe problematic people that are far less easy to misinterpret, and that using it takes away from a discussion.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

You and I must have read those posts very differently.

I was actually unaware of who first coined it, those were interesting reads. Either way, I still stand by my point- I think there are better words to describe problematic people that are far less easy to misinterpret, and that using it takes away from a discussion.

Shame on whoever brought that into the discussion in the first place.

Oops! Sorry, @Scylla Rhiadra!

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The actual point of so doing was to differentiate those viewpoints from the entirely legitimate plight of men who are having a hard time finding a match.

You and I must have read those posts very differently.

I was actually unaware of who first coined it, those were interesting reads. Either way, I still stand by my point- I think there are better words to describe problematic people that are far less easy to misinterpret, and that using it takes away from a discussion.

But any time anything is said that points to a man having a fault you think it's a bad word or concept and should not be used. Also you've often thought the person mentioning it means "all men" when they're only referring to some of them.  I'm not going to stop using an accurate, descriptive word for a group of people just because you misinterpret it. This is an "unrealistic expectation".

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

So, is this just a perception problem?  When we (women) TP somewhere and ther are 25 male-presenting avatars all doing their own things like chatting in local or IM, dancing, shopping having fun with whatever, but one male is IMing all the female presenting avatar with rude proposals and getting angry about all the women turning him down.

Women being harassed will remember the one obnoxious guy and some will assign their anger indiscriminately to all men.  If this happens at a lot of places they TP to it appears all men are like that even if it was only one guy out of 20.

I stand by my personal assessment that these types are a rare, but vocal minority. 

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

So, is this just a perception problem?  When we (women) TP somewhere and ther are 25 male-presenting avatars all doing their own things like chatting in local or IM, dancing, shopping having fun with whatever, but one male is IMing all the female presenting avatar with rude proposals and getting angry about all the women turning him down.

Women being harassed will remember the one obnoxious guy and some will assign their anger indiscriminately to all men.  If this happens at a lot of places they TP to it appears all men are like that even if it was only one guy out of 20.

I stand by my personal assessment that these types are a rare, but vocal minority. 

I don't think the issue is about percentages -- whether there are lots of men doing this or very few.

The issue is that many of these advances in 2nd life are unwelcome and aggressive, and we do tend to remember those experiences more -- it's the way our brains work in order to protect us.

It's just a fact....anyone can look it up ....compared to women there are more men who are aggressive (and violent). This carries into 2nd life.

Women are upset by this...some are even fearful in 2nd life due to it -- and they have a right to be.

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't think the issue is about percentages -- whether there are lots of men doing this or very few.

The issue is that many of these advances in 2nd life are unwelcome and aggressive, and we do tend to remember those experiences more -- it's the way our brains work in order to protect us.

It's just a fact....anyone can look it up ....compared to women there are more men who are aggressive (and violent). This carries into 2nd life.

Women are upset by this...some are even fearful in 2nd life due to it -- and they have a right to be.

 

I am not saying the behavior is acceptable from anyone. I didn't even hint at it.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I am not saying the behavior is acceptable from anyone. I didn't even hint at it.

By defending the behavior as only belonging to a minority I think you're missing the main point, and so I explained what the main point is. It's a point Paul does not want to acknowledge.