Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Coffee Pancake]

This came up at the Lab Gab with Philip and Oberwolf and I feel they have fundamentally misunderstood the implications.

 

< bear with me please ! Much of this is to frame the discussion that follows >

 

Ok, so there is this thing called "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs". The idea being that you must start at the bottom and meet those needs in order to explore items in higher tiers.

Here is a picture... (and more information here if you must)

Obviously this is pure psychology nerd garbage as starving artists exist (to give an extremely simple contradiction). That's not important for this discussion, no need to pick holes in Maslow's pyramid. It's just here to "set the stage".

 

'The question as asked by strawberry :

"Considering Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and that an avatar's physiological needs are met when they first rez, how this baseline of security frees them to focus on the needs for love and esteem and self actualization, this is not like in real life or mist games that require some struggle to survive and thrive, what do you think Second Life says about human nature?"

Relevant point in the Lab Gab video : https://youtu.be/li-QjOimYas?t=3638  (please do listen to the full clip, its like 3 minutes total)

Philips response boils down to 'without the bottom two needs, people are naturally altruistic and nice"

Oberwolf's eyes seems to have glazed over when it gets to his turn and asks for the next question 😂

 

< the debate starts here >

 

I think Philip has fundamentally misunderstood the implications of Second Life omitting the bottom two foundational tiers of 'Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs'. Yes it is a positive platform for people to explore, express themselves, be altruistic and achieve personal growth.

However, the bottom two tiers of the pyramid are the largest. They represent a defining part of the human condition, they dominate our daily lives and dictate our actions to a considerable degree.

Games will provide these tiers as part of the experience. In Minecraft one must quickly build a home to survive the night. The act of doing that informs activity long after the immediate need to survive hordes of night time monsters has passed. As the player progresses, the home gets bigger, its borders expand, the zombie threat diminishes to the point it's incidental novelty. What's left is one the biggest video game franchises in human history, fun for all ages and easily as much of a sandbox as SL.

Second Life does not present any challenge to users that quality as being psychological or survival. This is the missing piece that causes people to leave so early in their journey here. They join SL and find nothing to do. There is no challenge to be met. No purpose to set them off on their adventure. No experience that allows them to define their starting place.

The need to meet psychological and survival requirements is so baked into all of us, that when presented with its absence, most people .. move on.

This is, in my estimation, why Linden homes have been successful for growth of premium membership and retention where everything else has failed. It presents a facsimile of foundational needs for people to complete. Find a place to call home, and in the process, find a foot hold for their place in Second Life.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Coffee Pancake
oh pedantry, i'm so sorry please forgive this poor dyslexic ....

[Stephanie Misfit]

I don't think I would want to log in if SL turned into some simulator for basic physiological needs, and I had to pretend to get them met in world. I know there is a market for systems in SL that do just that though.

I think the "nothing to do" is the really big thing that drives people away. People keep going back to MMOs year after year because there is always something to do, and not just that, things that give them a sense of competence and achievement.

[Love Zhaoying]

Comments:

Phillip and Oberwolf were trying to be supportive, in response to a user question about Maslow's Hierarchy. I believe you left out that Strawberry was just relaying that question as submitted by a user.

A few observations: People are taught about Maslow's hierarchy in freshman-level (first year) college. It is very basic. And very old, proposed in 1954.

 My point is, absolutely anyone who attended a basic college course or studied Psych 101 would be aware of Maslow's Hierarchy.  With this in mind, the fact the question was asked is not impressive; the fact Phillip and Oberwolf entertained the question is more interesting.

 I think YOU missed the point. Phillip and Oberwolf mentioned that yes, in certain other games you have to "do things" to meet those bottom two tiers.

I do not comprehend why you do not see that as an advantage for Second Life; being free from the bottom tiers allows you to pursue the upper part of the hierarchy - bypassing the struggle - which is an important goal of life: to get your higher tier needs met, without needing to struggle to get your bottom tier needs met. 

I disagree with your premise. 
 

But, I can see why you say "this is why Linden Homes are successful." However, nobody "needs" a home to be in Second Life.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Stephanie Misfit said:

I don't think I would want to log in if SL turned into some simulator for basic physiological needs, and I had to pretend to get them met in world. I know there is a market for systems in SL that do just that though.

To continue the mincraft example 

The zombies are only a a threat at the start when you are least equipped to deal with them. As you progress, your ability to solve that problem grows to to the point that they only exists when you desire them to.

It's not long into the game when you have enough resources to plant torches around your house, stopping them from spawning at all (zombies only appear in dark places).

That specific survival need is met and resolved. The "survive the night zombie panic" part of the game is over.

But players continue to make a bigger nicer elaborate houses though out the entire play session (which can run on for years). The initial foundational need pivots into a primary fun activity.

 

I'm not suggesting SL should have some on going need to refuel our avatars like the sims, that kind of chore work is miserable and tends to punish players rather than creating an interesting and engaging experience.

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

24 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Bare with me please

"Bear with me".

 

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Second Life does not present any challenge to users that quality as being psychological or survival. This is the missing piece that causes people to leave so early in their journey here. They join SL and find nothing to do. There is no challenge to be met. No purpose to set them off on their adventure. No experience that allows them to define their starting place.

The need to meet psychological and survival requirements is so baked into all of us, that when presented with its absence, most people .. move on.

So, what do you suggest since SL has been this way since the beginning?

It's enough work for me to achieve the bottom 2 tiers in my first life.  If I had had to struggle with them when I joined SL, I more than likely would not still be here.

The Linden homes have been successful BECAUSE it eliminates part of the struggle.to achieve the end goal of a.place to live.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 I think YOU missed the point. Phillip and Oberwolf mentioned that yes, in certain other games you have to "do things" to meet those bottom two tiers.

I do not comprehend why you do not see that as an advantage for Second Life; being free from the bottom tiers allows you to pursue the upper part of the hierarchy - bypassing the struggle - which is an important goal of life: to get your higher tier needs met, without needing to struggle to get your bottom tier needs met. 

I disagree with your premise. 
 

But, I can see why you say "this is why Linden Homes are successful." However, nobody "needs" a home to be in Second Life.

The premise is that without those needs, most people don't even stay long enough to get to a Linden home. The discussion around Maslow's pyramid is an interesting framing for the dicussion.

 

Why am I here?

What do I do?

What is my purpose in this place?

 

If someone can not see themselves here personally (and realistically why should they) in their first few sessions, what is there to keep them here at all.

At this point, most everyone has made an SL account at some point. Most everyone left immediately.

The drop off after that first session is huge, and something mentors get to see first hand, most people we help never come back.

[Persephone Emerald]

21 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This came up at the Lab Gab with Philip and Oberwolf and I feel they have fundamentally misunderstood the implications.

 

< Bare with me please ! Much of this is to frame the discussion that follows >

 

Ok, so there is this thing called "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs". The idea being that you must start at the bottom and meet those needs in order to explore items in higher tiers.

Here is a picture... (and more information here if you must)

Obviously this is pure psychology nerd garbage as starving artists exist (to give an extremely simple contradiction). That's not important for this discussion, no need to pick holes in Maslow's pyramid. It's just here to "set the stage".

 

'The question as asked by strawberry :

"Considering Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and that an avatar's physiological needs are met when they first rez, how this baseline of security frees them to focus on the needs for love and esteem and self actualization, this is not like in real life or mist games that require some struggle to survive and thrive, what do you think Second Life says about human nature?"

Relevant point in the Lab Gab video : https://youtu.be/li-QjOimYas?t=3638  (please do listen to the full clip, its like 3 minutes total)

Philips response boils down to 'without the bottom two needs, people are naturally altruistic and nice"

Oberwolf's eyes seems to have glazed over when it gets to his turn and asks for the next question 😂

 

< the debate starts here >

 

I think Philip has fundamentally misunderstood the implications of Second Life omitting the bottom two foundational tiers of 'Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs'. Yes it is a positive platform for people to explore, express themselves, be altruistic and achieve personal growth.

However, the bottom two tiers of the pyramid are the largest. They represent a defining part of the human condition, they dominate our daily lives and dictate our actions to a considerable degree.

Games will provide these tiers as part of the experience. In Minecraft one must quickly build a home to survive the night. The act of doing that informs activity long after the immediate need to survive hordes of night time monsters has passed. As the player progresses, the home gets bigger, its borders expand, the zombie threat diminishes to the point it's incidental novelty. What's left is one the biggest video game franchises in human history, fun for all ages and easily as much of a sandbox as SL.

Second Life does not present any challenge to users that quality as being psychological or survival. This is the missing piece that causes people to leave so early in their journey here. They join SL and find nothing to do. There is no challenge to be met. No purpose to set them off on their adventure. No experience that allows them to define their starting place.

The need to meet psychological and survival requirements is so baked into all of us, that when presented with its absence, most people .. move on.

This is, in my estimation, why Linden homes have been successful for growth of premium membership and retention where everything else has failed. It presents a facsimile of foundational needs for people to complete. Find a place to call home, and in the process, find a foot hold for their place in Second Life.

The bottom 2 levels of the pyramid have no meaning in a game. Those are about Real Life survival. It's only the top 3 levels that can be partially met in a game or virtual world. Our SL communities and friendships address the Belongingness level. Creating stuff, having a virtual home you like, liking how your avatar looks, and any other accomplishments inworld address the Esteem level. (In a game, meeting the goals of the game and advancing up levels addresses this level.) The top level is very subjective, so some people may find ways that SL helps them meet this need, but most other people won't.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I'm a little confused. Second Life isn't a survival game/platform, which is totally fine, as many multiplayer games that aren't survival games also do very well.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Why am I here?

What do I do?

What is my purpose in this place?

I am reminded of a certain General (Wesley Clark, I think)! Or, the Talking Heads song (Once In a Lifetime).

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'm a little confused. Second Life isn't a survival game/platform, which is totally fine, as many multiplayer games that aren't survival games also do very well.

Exactly. To restate that as "the cause of the retention problem" is a big stretch.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am reminded of a certain General (Wesley Clark, I think)! Or, the Talking Heads song (Once In a Lifetime).

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

[Love Zhaoying]

I'll flounce. Should be interesting to see how many agree with the OP. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Exactly. To restate that as "the cause of the retention problem" is a big stretch.

Yeah...also, Minecraft has a peaceful mode which completely shuts off the survival mechanics. No food/drink required, no hostile enemies unless you attack first, etc. Survival becomes a total non-issue. That's how I play it, in fact, as well as tons of other people. I just like the building and exploration and cooking, so my game is heavily modded to turn food/drink back on, but no enemies, tons of new biomes and flowers and fruit and vegetables, and of course, tons of new recipes and crops and cooking tools. 

There's also creative mode, which bypasses ALL of that and just gives you the entire block library to build with - also where a ton of players spend their time.

That's sort of how I see SL, really. Minecraft Creative Mode, pretty much.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yeah...also, Minecraft has a peaceful mode which completely shuts off the survival mechanics. No food/drink required, no hostile enemies unless you attack first, etc. Survival becomes a total non-issue. That's how I play it, in fact, as well as tons of other people. I just like the building and exploration and cooking, so my game is heavily modded to turn food/drink back on, but no enemies, tons of new biomes and flowers and fruit and vegetables, and of course, tons of new recipes and crops and cooking tools. 

There's also creative mode, which bypasses ALL of that and just gives you the entire block library to build with - also where a ton of players spend their time.

That's sort of how I see SL, really. Minecraft Creative Mode, pretty much.

I was certain the Sims were also mentioned. Doesn't that also have a "free play no work" mode?

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

The bottom 2 levels of the pyramid have no meaning in a game. Those are about Real Life survival.

Obviously, but almost all games simulate them on some way.

Your character will start out lacking core abilities and skills. The fun cars are in another castle, the big spells are grayed out, the best toys just out of reach.

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So, what do you suggest since SL has been this way since the beginning?

It's enough work for me to achieve the bottom 2 tiers in my first life.  If I had had to struggle with them when I joined SL, I more than likely would not still be here.

The Linden homes have been successful BECAUSE it eliminates part of the struggle.to achieve the end goal of a.place to live.

Progression and "leveling up" are also used as an educational mechanic.

You don't get the big gun till you've figured out how to point the small one.

A common story from people who started SL years ago is flying over the gorge. That presented a challenge and moment of achievement.

 

When asked "What is this place and what do I do?" is it better to launch into some wordy sales pitch about how vast and wonderful SL is and how you can be anything...

 

or "well, you need to find a home first, then you can get inventory access".

"How do I get a home?"

"Well, you can either buy premium and just get one, or .. make friends with someone from newbie friends group and move in with them, or go to one of the many newbie social hotels"

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I was certain the Sims were also mentioned. Doesn't that also have a "free play no work" mode?

In the form of the in-game cheats menu EA gives access to, sure. "testingcheats true" yourself to fully topped up needs bars any time ya want. Make homes free, make yourself wealthy, teleport all over the place, whatever. Even more crazy stuff is available with user-created mods (make NPCs fall in love with ya, kick annoying sims out of the neighborhood, etc.).

Edited June 29, 2023 by Ayashe Ninetails
Fixing stuffs

[diamond Marchant]

15 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is, in my estimation, why Linden homes have been successful for growth of premium membership and retention where everything else has failed. It presents a facsimile of foundational needs for people to complete. Find a place to call home, and in the process, find a foot hold for their place in Second Life.

When Strawberry asked this question my first thought was "this seems like fun", as it appeared rather academic and abstract. Credit to Strawberry and Philip for dutifully playing their part.

But then I recalled a conversation I had with a family member just yesterday... she started asking questions about SL, specifically land ownership. She wanted to know why anyone paid if you could just be a no-pay basic member. I replied that people in SL eventually want "object permanence". This is a strange concept to those who have never been in a virtual world. Why pay for land when you can just rez stuff when you need it.

I could only offer that for many, and myself for sure, Second Life is a sandbox/dollhouse game/not-a-game. The whole point (for some) is to make stuff and/or buy/rezz stuff. We need/want our stuff to exist somewhere... hence we need to own/rent/control land to make that happen.

Prior to Bellisseria, getting "object permanence" required know-how. Linden Homes (v2) changed all that... the path to "object permanence" involves web dialogs and entering credit card info...  something everyone knows how to do since web 2.0.

I think Coffee's statement is a good one.

Edited June 29, 2023 by diamond Marchant

[Persephone Emerald]

@diamond Marchant, I like your idea that we want object permanence. Even when I don't go to my Linden Home, I like knowing it's there. I like knowing the SL world is there too, even when I don't log in.

[Rowan Amore]

I don't know.  I was here almost an entire year, daily and never even thought about needing a home or meeting a goal.of any kind.  To me, that was the appeal.  I could do or not do, anything I wanted.  

I could exist now inworld if I had no home.  I haven't had an objective in 14 years, either aside from meeting people.

36 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

or "well, you need to find a home first, then you can get inventory access".

"How do I get a home?"

"Well, you can either buy premium and just get one, or .. make friends with someone from newbie friends group and move in with them, or go to one of the many newbie social hotels"

You can't be serious.  😕

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You can't be serious.  😕

The current system has a newbies home set to the first place they visit after "welcome to SL island". This is why clubs and vamp clans would camp fake newbies at rez points so they could pass the details and yank them.

Being direct to a newbie social location .. is actually a solid step up. A "Social Hotel" could be the NCI.

[Silent Mistwalker]

59 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I was certain the Sims were also mentioned. Doesn't that also have a "free play no work" mode?

Nope. Play and Build modes only. Anything else is done outside of the game (like object creation) in programs created by the players specifically for creating for the Sims in all iterations.

 

I've been playing Sims for over 20 years now. lol

Edited June 29, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Silent Mistwalker]

52 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

A common story from people who started SL years ago is flying over the gorge. That presented a challenge and moment of achievement.

I almost didn't stay in SL because of that. I was determined to attend a specific event though and somehow managed to get across that damned thing.

[Persephone Emerald]

My goals when I was a newbie were to explore the world, personalize my avatar for free, and find places where I could change my skin and clothing in some degree of privacy. None of that has to do with survival. In fact, I hate zombies and threatening things.

Eventually I made some friends, which added to my enjoyment. I also helped run an inworld group, which met my need for Community and Belonging.

Eventually, I got my own land and enjoyed renting to others (creating a little spending money). I also made some items that I sold and sold some yardsale items. It was fun to feel like a landowner and business person, but I never made more money than what I put into SL. Having some building and landscaping skill did meet my Self-esteem needs though.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Katherine Heartsong]

I think that the bottom two layers are more psychological in an online world, and that's where we lose people. It's great that you can do anything ... for someone who understands that premise/promise coming in. Especially the bottom tier .. the physiological. In online virtual worlds I think this is about feeling familiar and comfortable and the UX and UI most new users encounter does not offer that well enough.

What I suspect (as someone whose career is in this field) is that many many new users do not understand this and flail around in this "sea of being able to do whatever they want" and lack some pretty fundamental understanding of what their goal might be. There's also the possibility of a vast disconnect between what they have seen of SL, and what they land in.

Look at the images on the SL homepage (and imagine they aren't annoyingly in motion). If I was a new user looking at them I'd assume that I could sign up, log in, and simply select a stunning furry avatar or buff well-dressed dude to explore the world in. If not select, then easily create one. Like in 10 minutes, with nice clothes .. think Sims 4.

I really want to see is in-depth research and the delta in expectations of a new user in SL. What they assumed versus what they found when they signed up. That delta .. that gap in expectations .. is a key reason a platform fails to retain people. Or if things are (seemingly) too difficult, the next dopamine fix is just on the next game/site etc and off we go. I study retention, engagement, and growth on platforms for a living, and have been curious since my first days here maybe 15 years ago (and subsequent abandonment up until three years ago) what isn't working.

It's a big problem, and I'd love to help but don't know how other than to be patient with newbies and try to help them through the empty start here.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong