Simulated intimacy in SL vs the world ..

[SandorWren]

53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And I'd be fine with that. Long live adult content! So long as it doesn't swamp and destroy everything else here.

I agree with you. The point of  being in second life in my opinion, is to have the OPTION of choosing how and why we want to live it. Interacting with different viewpoints broadens our horizons, and teaches us what we enjoy and don't enjoy. That's true in both RL and SL.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think we're at that stage in this discussion where we're going to have to amiably agree to disagree.

I mean this with no disrespect, but long time SL users tend to be very myopic about what else is out there, especially when it's not their key interest. SL becomes a primary hobby to the exclusion of all others.

People need to play more games.

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

...or transform it so thoroughly that, for me, it might just as well be dead. If they do go in this direction, I hope you are right, and that it doesn't render this platform uninteresting and unusable for me. But I honestly don't think you are.

We're 20 years in a hole. The need for growth is more critical than ever, trying more of the same is at this point is madness and dooms us all, whatever we're into.

We are a very niche world that by design is very expensive to run. They don't make them like SL on purpose. One way or another radical change is on the cards, better we influence it before someone decides to do a tumblr and 'clean house' ... we don't survive a goof like that.

To date, we have been fortunate that the corporate desire for a 'clean house' has always manifested in other areas and we have been able to laugh and ignore it (although the Sansar debacle almost sunk our battleship).

[BilliJo Aldrin]

@Coffee Pancake , do you really thing they would kill the goose, LL is obviously profitable, why risk everything, and that's what would happen with major changes.

I'm more worried that Amazon decides at some point that it doesn't want cartoon p orn on its servers.

 

[Paul Hexem]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

For me, your argument sounds like someone pulling a piece out of a car engine, and saying that it's obviously the most important piece, because the engine won't run without it.

The thing is, @Coffee Pancake is right about one thing and it's sort of getting missed for the "sex isn't what I do" argument.

Without the social aspect, there is nothing to do in SL that can't be done better elsewhere, full stop.

The only reason we do it in SL is because of the other people we do it with and their good looking avatars. Doesn't matter if it's building, fashion, driving, fishing, whatever. You name it, and I'll show you a game that can do it better- the only difference is if there's multiplayer at all, the avatars aren't nearly as sexy.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Humans do not come from cookie cutters.

[Paul Hexem]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Humans do not come from cookie cutters.

The ones in SL that haven't played other games, they do.

[Hunny Bunny]

4 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I'm more worried that Amazon decides at some point that it doesn't want cartoon p orn on its servers.

Yeah because Amazon is a magical unicorn that doesn't sell any adult content day & night 24/7/365.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

@Coffee Pancake , do you really thing they would kill the goose, LL is obviously profitable, why risk everything, and that's what would happen with major changes.

Historically, LL have actually tried. Multiple times.

Sansar put us on actual life support for years while the company sunk everything into that project. SL completely stagnated. There were more third party viewer developers than Linden working on SL.

In a business world awash with money and dominated by growth, Second Life is an awkward failure, a embarrassing squib, and the business direction has always been that If "we" weren't here, maybe this product would have the chance it deserves.

LL have already cut out the part they thought had the most value, that was the very first thing our new owners did. That we are seeing renewed investment in core technology at all probably means that fintech adventure isn't going so well.

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The ones in SL that haven't played other games, they do.

I think one thing that has me lost is, what does "playing other games" have to do with the "intimacy" aspect?

I thought the "playing other games" part of the topic was about quality, animations, etc. and the "intimacy" topic (which really seems to mean SEX in this thread) is separate.

It seems the two topics get conflated in some of the responses.  I don't think I will find teh sex in other games..but since I am not looking for teh sex, um...* confused *

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'd go further, and say that even about people who aren't self-consciously into "fashion," and just do Instagrammy selfies of themselves: it may not seem very sophisticated, but how is it really any less about self-expression and self-actualization than jumping on a pose ball, or wearing a collar? It's still all about realizing, in a virtual environment, something about who we are, and who we wish to be. 

So, yes, I'm with you. I don't see playing "Barbie" as some kind of slightly disturbing manifestation of latent narcissism.

I see it as self-fashioning, self-expression, and creativity.

I so much agree with everything you said in this reply. In particular, I'm calling out this section because this stood out for me in a big way. Just to make it clear (because I'm sure I never did, lol), fashion for me isn't at all about hitting up the biggest events and rushing out for the newest and greatest to turn male heads and strut my stuff for eyeballs and attention (which is what it tends to be about these days in both worlds). For me, it's a lot different. I've struggled with identity and expression for my entire life and nothing in the real world ever quite fit.

By the time I found SL, I was a black chick deep into goth and industrial subculture and clubbing who was always more of a "tomboy in combat boots" than anything and never understood why people were always on me to "smile more" and "be more feminine" and I failed at that stuff hard. Resented it, even. Funny enough, I've always been attracted to men who were muuuuch further along the feminine spectrum than I could ever manage to be, which led to a series of misadventures and unfortunate events - I dated a guy who wore skirts and we got ripped to shreds for that, I went shopping with a friend who enjoyed drag and saw him get laughed at by staff, I developed a whole attraction to men in heels (though I myself would fall and bust my @$! in them), etc. and eventually found my home among goths who were a hell of a lot more open-minded about breaking fashion and gender norms. Finding an outlet like that let me play around a LOT more with my look and expression in a much safer environment. I could get away with anything, I could mess around with baggy bondage pants, I could mix and match masc/fem all I wanted - running around in petticoats and combat boots and nobody seemed to mind. Then I found Second Life and my whole world exploded.

For anyone reading this who isn't aware - goth clothing is EXPENSIVE. If you really want to go all out in a particular style (Victorian, Cybergoth, etc.) you'll either need to learn how to sew or be prepared to drop a few hundred - thousand at shops and faires and events. There's also a lot of creative MacGyvering for hair and accessories. Otherwise, you wind up in Hot Topic, and the less said about that the better, LOL. So there was a limit to what I could achieve.

So yes, SL - you mean to tell me I could have EVERYTHING I've ever wanted in the real world...all the leather, the PVC, the lace, the velvet, the silk, the corsets...virtually? Every look I've been dying to create - I can do it for $5 each? Not $500 or $5,000???? Imagine the Tasmanian Devil absolutely decimating every store on the grid grabbing everything I could find to build not one look, not two, but ALL of them! Then more, and more, and more at a tiny fraction of the cost I'd be paying offline. 

Long story short, it became a massive adventure in self-actualization. I finally felt like ME and looked the part. It also led to the discovery that I'm immensely gender fluid (which took some time, as I mostly resented being socially "forced" to be so feminine for so long that I felt more comfy being on the male spectrum in SL before I started incorporating more feminine styles into my regular looks).

So yeah, for me, SL always meant a LOT, but not because of interpersonal relationships or dating or any of that. In fact, I found it HARDER to date here, and got very bored with it. Men were fine as long as I stayed predictably female, but would physically move away if I was in a male avatar or find something to complain about that wasn't feminine enough - too much metal in my face, or something. "You dummy, it's still me!" "Oh, I know! It's just, you're a guy...ya know? I'll wait, it's cool." OMG. I'm not "a guy" I'm ME...I don't even own a....lawd. Get out of my house already, LOL.

I only managed to find one gender fluid person to date early on who changed looks as often as I did (he was fun!), and I had one relationship with someone who was bisexual, so he didn't care what I did either way. Everything else was a hassle to navigate and men got very toxic. Unless I want to commit to being traditionally feminine full-time and dressing the part (no thanks), dating's off-limits here. People were far less uptight and squeamish about these things in the real life dating scene and it seems a lot easier to meet people like me out in the real world (especially on the goth side). If LL leaned more into the adult scene here, I feel like I'd actually be driven further away from it. Fine by me, really!

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think one thing that has me lost is, what does "playing other games" have to do with the "intimacy" aspect?

I thought the "playing other games" part of the topic was about quality, animations, etc. and the "intimacy" topic (which really seems to mean SEX in this thread) is separate.

It seems the two topics get conflated in some of the responses.  I don't think I will find teh sex in other games..but since I am not looking for teh sex, um...* confused *

There is sex in other games, and it's even superior to SL. I can't name them off the top of my head (I already named the ones I play), but the previously linked screenshots of Steam store show you they exist.

That's true of every activity in SL. Other games do it better.

The only reason to choose SL is that we can do said activities with another person. My comment to the cookie cutter reply was for the people that have never played other games and think SL is good at any of those things.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think one thing that has me lost is, what does "playing other games" have to do with the "intimacy" aspect?

Because we're symbolically hiding in a dumpster afraid of change and refusing to look outside, because when others do .. they tend to leave and not come back.

This thread also started with the example that full on sexual expression in gaming is now a thing, not just in obvious porn titles either. The days of needing to hide SL's own rich and vibrant adult side is long passed.

[Arielle Popstar]

43 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The thing is, @Coffee Pancake is right about one thing and it's sort of getting missed for the "sex isn't what I do" argument.

Without the social aspect, there is nothing to do in SL that can't be done better elsewhere, full stop.

The only reason we do it in SL is because of the other people we do it with and their good looking avatars. Doesn't matter if it's building, fashion, driving, fishing, whatever. You name it, and I'll show you a game that can do it better- the only difference is if there's multiplayer at all, the avatars aren't nearly as sexy.

There is an anonymity factor involved too with S/L where some from Opensim and other games use S/L for the sexual aspects but live, build and socialize in their respective worlds. The adult side of S/L is the only reason some of us are here and failing that, would just stay in those other worlds and find it locally.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This thread also started with the example that full on sexual expression in gaming is now a thing, not just in obvious porn titles either. The days of needing to hide SL's own rich and vibrant adult side is long passed.

Well, since / if the sex is LL's remaining "goose that lays golden eggs", then hopefully LL will be looking at other systems to make improvements. Some day.

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I only managed to find one gender fluid person to date early on who changed looks as often as I did (he was fun!), and I had one relationship with someone who was bisexual, so he didn't care what I did either way. Everything else was a hassle to navigate and men got very toxic. Unless I want to commit to being traditionally feminine full-time and dressing the part (no thanks), dating's off-limits here. People were far less uptight and squeamish about these things in the real life dating scene and it seems a lot easier to meet people like me out in the real world (especially on the goth side). If LL leaned more into the adult scene here, I feel like I'd actually be driven further away from it. Fine by me, really!

Dating will always heavily favor hetro-normative expression. If LL lean in, yes that increases dramatically, but a raising tide lifts all boats.

As someone who actively avoids entanglement with anything even remotely resembling traditional gender norms, I will say, there are very rich niches where gender nonconformity are the order of the day, just might have to dig out something shiny and decide if you're going to be bossy or not.

[Katherine Heartsong]

20 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I so much agree with everything you said in this reply. In particular, I'm calling out this section because this stood out for me in a big way. Just to make it clear (because I'm sure I never did, lol), fashion for me isn't at all about hitting up the biggest events and rushing out for the newest and greatest to turn male heads and strut my stuff for eyeballs and attention (which is what it tends to be about these days in both worlds). For me, it's a lot different. I've struggled with identity and expression for my entire life and nothing in the real world ever quite fit.

By the time I found SL, I was a black chick deep into goth and industrial subculture and clubbing who was always more of a "tomboy in combat boots" than anything and never understood why people were always on me to "smile more" and "be more feminine" and I failed at that stuff hard. Resented it, even. Funny enough, I've always been attracted to men who were muuuuch further along the feminine spectrum than I could ever manage to be, which led to a series of misadventures and unfortunate events - I dated a guy who wore skirts and we got ripped to shreds for that, I went shopping with a friend who enjoyed drag and saw him get laughed at by staff, I developed a whole attraction to men in heels (though I myself would fall and bust my @$! in them), etc. and eventually found my home among goths who were a hell of a lot more open-minded about breaking fashion and gender norms. Finding an outlet like that let me play around a LOT more with my look and expression in a much safer environment. I could get away with anything, I could mess around with baggy bondage pants, I could mix and match masc/fem all I wanted - running around in petticoats and combat boots and nobody seemed to mind. Then I found Second Life and my whole world exploded.

For anyone reading this who isn't aware - goth clothing is EXPENSIVE. If you really want to go all out in a particular style (Victorian, Cybergoth, etc.) you'll either need to learn how to sew or be prepared to drop a few hundred - thousand at shops and faires and events. There's also a lot of creative MacGyvering for hair and accessories. Otherwise, you wind up in Hot Topic, and the less said about that the better, LOL. So there was a limit to what I could achieve.

So yes, SL - you mean to tell me I could have EVERYTHING I've ever wanted in the real world...all the leather, the PVC, the lace, the velvet, the silk, the corsets...virtually? Every look I've been dying to create - I can do it for $5 each? Not $500 or $5,000???? Imagine the Tasmanian Devil absolutely decimating every store on the grid grabbing everything I could find to build not one look, not two, but ALL of them! Then more, and more, and more at a tiny fraction of the cost I'd be paying offline. 

Long story short, it became a massive adventure in self-actualization. I finally felt like ME and looked the part. It also led to the discovery that I'm immensely gender fluid (which took some time, as I mostly resented being socially "forced" to be so feminine for so long that I felt more comfy being on the male spectrum in SL before I started incorporating more feminine styles into my regular looks).

So yeah, for me, SL always meant a LOT, but not because of interpersonal relationships or dating or any of that. In fact, I found it HARDER to date here, and got very bored with it. Men were fine as long as I stayed predictably female, but would physically move away if I was in a male avatar or find something to complain about that wasn't feminine enough - too much metal in my face, or something. "You dummy, it's still me!" "Oh, I know! It's just, you're a guy...ya know? I'll wait, it's cool." OMG. I'm not "a guy" I'm ME...I don't even own a....lawd. Get out of my house already, LOL.

I only managed to find one gender fluid person to date early on who changed looks as often as I did (he was fun!), and I had one relationship with someone who was bisexual, so he didn't care what I did either way. Everything else was a hassle to navigate and men got very toxic. Unless I want to commit to being traditionally feminine full-time and dressing the part (no thanks), dating's off-limits here. People were far less uptight and squeamish about these things in the real life dating scene and it seems a lot easier to meet people like me out in the real world (especially on the goth side). If LL leaned more into the adult scene here, I feel like I'd actually be driven further away from it. Fine by me, really!

Beautifully said.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

The ones in SL that haven't played other games, they do.

If you truly believe some in SL have never played a game or, as you put it, "other games", I can't help you since SL has never been a game. It is and always has been a creative platform.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Dating will always heavily favor hetro-normative expression. If LL lean in, yes that increases dramatically, but a raising tide lifts all boats.

As someone who actively avoids entanglement with anything even remotely resembling traditional gender norms, I will say, there are very rich niches where gender nonconformity are the order of the day, just might have to dig out something shiny and decide if you're going to be bossy or not.

Maybe, but I've never had much luck in finding that community in-world in the entire time I've been here after trying numerous groups and social hangouts, and I realized it's really not worth the hassle or aggravation to keep trying. I come here to relax and be myself. If SL taught me anything, it's that I don't have to worry about what makes men happy or subject myself to nonsense. If I'm in the mood to date, there are less frustrating venues.

 

41 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Beautifully said.

Thanks! ❤️

[Paul Hexem]

15 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

If you truly believe some in SL have never played a game or, as you put it, "other games", I can't help you since SL has never been a game. It is and always has been a creative platform.

There's the cookie cutter response I was talking about.

A Prius isn't a Ferrari, but the brakes work the same. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Paul Hexem

[Silent Mistwalker]

20 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

There's the cookie cutter response I was talking about.

A Prius isn't a Ferrari, but the brakes work the same. 

If you think I am anything like a cookie cutter, you know nothing about me.

[gwynchisholm]

31 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

can't help you since SL has never been a game. It is and always has been a creative platform.

I will always dislike this take. The name you give to SL does not matter that much, individual perceptions of it change what it is. It’s all entertainment, I’ll always consider SL a game. All social world games are entertainment, they’re all games. 
At its core SL is no different than roblox, yet that’s described distinctly as a game. Because it’s a game, it’s also a platform, but it’s a game.

[Paul Hexem]

5 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

If you think I am anything like a cookie cutter, you know nothing about me.

You've been around long enough, you should know better than to use cookie cutter responses, especially to avoid the point being made. That one's on you.

I recommend you try some other creative platforms to see that they do it shockingly better than SL. I'm partial to Space Engineers like I said, but there's a lot of options to choose from. It'll help to give some insight into what's being brought up in this thread.

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Space Engineers

I like that, as a metaphor.

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

You've been around long enough, you should know better than to use cookie cutter responses, especially to avoid the point being made. That one's on you.

I recommend you try some other creative platforms to see that they do it shockingly better than SL. I'm partial to Space Engineers like I said, but there's a lot of options to choose from. It'll help to give some insight into what's being brought up in this thread.

I currently play a few, a couple of which I have been playing for several years. Most recently I grabbed Planet Explorers because the devs messed up and now the game is free. I'd love to play some of the expensive games you play but I can't afford to shell out $50, $60 a pop and more to buy games. One of the reasons I am still in SL after nearly 20 years.

I get the feeling you're trying to tell me it's ok for other people to bring up other aspects of the situation just not me. You don't have to reply to my posts if you don't want to discuss what I bring up.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Love Zhaoying]

Are we secure in our beliefs that if our Second Life "intimacy" (I have no clue why that word was used) is brought "out into the open", that will not open Second Life and "us users" to the scrutiny of the Sexual Practices Police?

Example: Non-human Avatars - will they be prevented from having sexytimes? Or just in countries where the Internet is monitored closely? 

Will parcels still be allowed to have "privacy" settings, so noone can see what happens on the parcel?

If users on Second Life have concerns about doxxing, PII, etc., then how would they feel if our Slex were put under a spotlight for all to see?