So they banned Gacha but...

[Skyler Pancake]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Cheapskate! 

I believe you, I am just surprised.

I'd offer more, but my wallet is still recovering from Fantasy Faire. I'm looking forward to taking my new bus for a ride soon!

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Skyler Pancake said:

I'd offer more, but my wallet is still recovering from Fantasy Faire. I'm looking forward to taking my new bus for a ride soon!

It's fine, a) I believe you wouldn't "bet L$" if you weren't certain, and b) if you were wrong someone would have jumped in to say so by now.  That's how our Forum works, everyone pitches in!

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, Skyler Pancake said:

tried to get them to chime in. The only response I got was to be banned for 7 days for "harassment" as apparently being "annoying" is considered harassment now. It's humorous, as they explicitly stated in their reply to my request for further details that there "were more appropriate means of engagement, such as the forums" while also stating my tagging the Lindens and Moles involved on the forums was part of the reason for the ban. 🤷‍♀️

I tagged LL and Patch early on in this thread trying to get a response...any response...from anyone.   Perhaps the debate is still ongoing as to whom they're going to throw under the bus on this one.  😁

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I tagged LL and Patch early on in this thread trying to get a response...any response...from anyone.   Perhaps the debate is still ongoing as to whom they're going to throw under the bus on this one.  😁

^ Yup, this. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I tagged LL and Patch early on in this thread trying to get a response...any response...from anyone.   Perhaps the debate is still ongoing as to whom they're going to throw under the bus on this one.  😁

Maybe we're not..annoying enough!

 

[Persephone Emerald]

@Skyler Pancake

Don't leave over this casino debacle. I believe LL will sort this out and fix their image.

In the meantime, they've also added a very nice Victorian social region & the BelliHuB & BelliDemo island, both of which have non-gambling games to encourage socialization.

Honestly, if it weren't for the ridiculously high stakes games, real money ATMs, & no prizes to spend winnings on, the casino idea could be ok. All my avatars have been able to win a bit at Blackjack. Tasha even played & chatted with another user, so that's socialization.  There's just so much that needs to be improved for this RP "casino" for to be acceptable for SL.

Or - How about just redo the old dark fairgrounds with updated rides, games & prizes instead?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Skyler Pancake]

3 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

@Skyler Pancake

Don't leave over this casino debacle. I believe LL will sort this out and fix their image.

In the meantime, they've also added a very nice Victorian social region & the BelliHuB & BelliDemo island, both of which have non-gambling games to encourage socialization.

Honestly, if it weren't for the ridiculously high stakes games, real money ATMs, & no prizes to spend winnings on, the casino idea could be ok. All my avatars have been able to win a bit at Blackjack. Tasha even played & chatted with another user, so that's socialization.  There's just so much that needs to be improved for this RP "casino" for to be acceptable for SL.

Or - How about just redo the old dark fairgrounds with updated rides, games & prizes instead?

I wouldn't be leaving solely for the casino. There's a number of topics I could bring up that have been going on for years without even getting into the most recent issues.

I'm still stubbornly holding on to the hope that they will start resolving some of the issues. This situation is greatly reducing my resolve though.

[Qie Niangao]

12 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I tagged LL and Patch early on in this thread trying to get a response...any response...from anyone.   Perhaps the debate is still ongoing as to whom they're going to throw under the bus on this one.  😁

It may be that there's some dissent in the ranks about this. It burned significant opportunity cost from several parts of the organization to get this thing on the grid. You can be sure Legal spent some time on it, to say nothing of the Moles and whoever built and programmed the slots and gaming tables. Maybe there are more sophisticated gaming devices on the grid—I have no idea, but folks seem to think so—and maybe some gaming regions have carpeting with more casino-caliber tackiness, but still this was not an overnight production.

Somebody in power thought it was a good idea but I bet others bit their tongue the whole time they were required to work on it.

(As others already observed, this has the get-rich-quick scent of that "SL does NFT" scheme from a couple techbro fads ago. When you're a star an owner, they let you do it.)

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 hours ago, Skyler Pancake said:

It's not that strange of an idea. Second Life is a stable profit margin for LL, but Tillia is where the real money is going to be at for them. There's a very, very good chance that they're trying to use this to show they can handle processing payments for "gambling simulation" platforms.

Tell that to everyone else. 🙄

I can understand why you were suspended.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Silent Mistwalker

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It may be that there's some dissent in the ranks about this. It burned significant opportunity cost from several parts of the organization to get this thing on the grid. You can be sure Legal spent some time on it, to say nothing of the Moles and whoever built and programmed the slots and gaming tables. Maybe there are more sophisticated gaming devices on the grid—I have no idea, but folks seem to think so—and maybe some gaming regions have carpeting with more casino-caliber tackiness, but still this was not an overnight production.

Somebody in power thought it was a good idea but I bet others bit their tongue the whole time they were required to work on it.

(As others already observed, this has the get-rich-quick scent of that "SL does NFT" scheme from a couple techbro fads ago. When you're a star an owner, they let you do it.)

At least (from what I understand) LL seemed to use generic-seeming Casino machines, ATM's, etc. - meaning, they did not have to create a lot of new "technical infrastructure" for this (except the "token system"). 

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It's fine, a) I believe you wouldn't "bet L$" if you weren't certain, and b) if you were wrong someone would have jumped in to say so by now.  That's how our Forum works, everyone pitches in!

LL calls it Virtual Land in the ToS.

Quote

3.4. "Virtual Land" is Virtual Space in Second Life that we license.

Second Life includes a component of Virtual Space that is stored on our Servers and made available in the form of virtual units ("Virtual Land"). Virtual Land is the graphical representation of three-dimensional virtual world space. Linden Lab may or may not charge fees for the right to acquire, transfer or access Virtual Land, and these fees may change at any time.

When you acquire Virtual Land, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Virtual Land License") to access and use features of Second Life associated with the virtual unit(s) of space corresponding to the identifiers of the Virtual Land within Second Life as designated by Linden Lab, in accordance with this Second Life Policy, the Terms of Service and any other applicable policies, including the Second Life Mainland Policies as they exist from time to time. The Virtual Land License is transferable by the holder to any other user provided that both users and the proposed transfer comply with the Terms of Service, maintain their accounts in good standing, and are not delinquent on any Account payment requirements. Except as expressly permitted by this Second Life Policy, this Virtual Land License may not otherwise be encumbered, conveyed or made subject to any right of survivorship or other disposition and any attempted disposition in violation of the Agreements is null and void. Linden Lab may revoke the Virtual Land License at any time without notice, refund or compensation in the event that: (i) Linden Lab determines that fraud, illegal conduct or any other violations of the Agreements are associated with the holder's Account or Virtual Land; or (ii) the holder becomes delinquent on any of that user's Account's payment requirements, ceases to maintain an active Account or terminates any of the Agreements.

You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with the Agreements, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify the Agreements.

You acknowledge that Virtual Land is a limited license right and is not a real property right or actual real estate, and it is not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab. You acknowledge that the use of the words "Buy," "Sell" and similar terms carry the same meaning of referring to the transfer of the Virtual Land License as they do with respect to the Linden Dollar License. You agree that Linden Lab has the right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Virtual Land as it sees fit and that Linden Lab shall have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right. Linden Lab makes no guarantee as to the nature of the features of Second Life that will be accessible through the use of Virtual Land, or the availability or supply of Virtual Land.

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

[Love Zhaoying]

Maybe LL should consider combining some of the recent tech features and fads with the Social Casino:

- Social Casino

- ChatGPT: Use an AI for the Casino staff to chat with users

- VR: Add a VR interface for the Casino

- NFT: Add NFT's for prizes (just so long as you don't call them "gachas")

- Mobile: Do this all on a Mobile viewer / App interface

Not sure if I missed anything..

 

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

LL calls it Virtual Land in the ToS.

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

I can't tell from the TOS you copied if what Skyler proposed is OK or not:  Paying other residents to trade Linden Premium homes.

In that context, does it matter what it's called?  I probably don't know what you meant.

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I can't tell from the TOS you copied if what Skyler proposed is OK or not:  Paying other residents to trade Linden Premium homes.

In that context, does it matter what it's called?  I probably don't know what you meant.

Try it and find out. I bet LL will come down on it hard. That's LL's money people would be taking. 

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Somebody in power thought it was a good idea but I bet others bit their tongue the whole time they were required to work on it.

This was my guess, too.  I'm sure it's not the first time employees have wondered "WTH" when given tasks by LL and I'm definitely certain it won't be the last.   The whole No Last Names debacle comes to mind.  

[Love Zhaoying]

37 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Try it and find out. I bet LL will come down on it hard. That's LL's money people would be taking. 

Glad you agree with me, nobody else chimed in with an opinion yet (unless I missed it).

[Persephone Emerald]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Glad you agree with me, nobody else chimed in with an opinion yet (unless I missed it).

I think whether or not LL would get involved in a scheme in which someone were selling access to prized Linden Home locations would depend on how much of this was going on.

First of all, LL owns the land and the houses, so no one else has a legal right to sell preferred access to them. "Owning" a Linden Home isn't even the same as "owning" mainland or a private estate island. We can't terraform the land, build our own house, and there are restrictions on how we can landscape and decorate the parcels. It's just renting, with the rental cost paid by our Premium membership fees.

Second however, LL runs a largely buyer beware platform, so if this were a singular transaction, they'd probably ignore it. If someone were trying to make a business of selling access to their assets, on the other hand, they would likely come after that person by repremanding them, banning them from Bellisseria, and possibly banning them from SL.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Lindal Kidd]

On 5/11/2023 at 2:09 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

Thank you.

It's almost as if some people are posting: "I'm not an addict, but I know how addiction works. This is not real gambling, so cannot be addictive." No, they don't know!

 

I find that scrolling through those clickbaity lists of things like "The Most Entitled Person You Ever Met", "Biggest Bridezilla", "I Got Even At Work" is addictive. I'm paying hours of my life and getting NOTHING in return, but I keep scrolling.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

On 5/11/2023 at 2:09 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

Thank you.

It's almost as if some people are posting: "I'm not an addict, but I know how addiction works. This is not real gambling, so cannot be addictive." No, they don't know!

 

I find that scrolling through those clickbaity lists of things like "The Most Entitled Person You Ever Met", "Biggest Bridezilla", "I Got Even At Work" is addictive. I'm paying hours of my life and getting NOTHING in return, but I keep scrolling.

Basically, some people (especially those with "addiction disorders" or "addictive personalities") can become addicted to almost anything.

I was addicted to the early Internet (BITNET) and almost failed college due to it.

I do know at least one person who dropped out of college due to too much focus (was it an addiction for them? not sure) on Second Life.

I personally have had my own struggles with addiction to drugs and alcohol.

I know people who were addicted (literally) to p*rn.

Gambling is "easy to understand" compared to some of these others. Even if you can't "win anything", this "Social Casino" checks the "gambling" and "potentially hazardous to addicts" boxes.

[diamond Marchant]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Even if you can't "win anything", this "Social Casino" checks the "gambling" and "potentially hazardous to addicts" boxes.

I think being a pretend legal analyst is fun, so here goes...

This Social Casino thingy is predatory, so I rule, it is BAD.

As to the "is it gambling" question, I am starting to change my mind on this and say "yes, it might be gambling". My case is based on reading this.. some legal stuff on the internet

The essence is...

Gambling consists of three elements: consideration, prize and chance. If any one of those three elements is missing, the game is simply not gambling (Rose, 1986). Almost all jurisdictions today find there is no consideration for gambling unless players are required to spend money.

If an element is missing, it's not gambling. The typical loopholes are "it's free to enter" or "the prize has no value" or  "it's a skill game, not chance".

One can argue that the Linden's Social Casino (aka Helios) is gambling if a resident pays money for chips. The slot machines and probably blackjack are games of chance. And there is a prize... more chips.... which is of value because chips can be used to play again.

However, Linden Lab is likely relying on this...

Some jurisdictions define "prize" to include free replays. But even if technically a crime, no government is going to go after an Internet operator for running an amusement game in which the only thing a player can win is the right to play the same game again, even if there is a charge to play.

Bottom line, there's gambling going on in Helios Casino but it's likely not gamble-y enough to get busted.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

I think being a pretend legal analyst is fun, so here goes...

This Social Casino thingy is predatory, so I rule, it is BAD.

As to the "is it gambling" question, I am starting to change my mind on this and say "yes, it might be gambling". My case is based on reading this.. some legal stuff on the internet

The essence is...

Gambling consists of three elements: consideration, prize and chance. If any one of those three elements is missing, the game is simply not gambling (Rose, 1986). Almost all jurisdictions today find there is no consideration for gambling unless players are required to spend money.

If an element is missing, it's not gambling. The typical loopholes are "it's free to enter" or "the prize has no value" or  "it's a skill game, not chance".

One can argue that the Linden's Social Casino (aka Helios) is gambling if a resident pays money for chips. The slot machines and probably blackjack are games of chance. And there is a prize... more chips.... which is of value because chips can be used to play again.

However, Linden Lab is likely relying on this...

Some jurisdictions define "prize" to include free replays. But even if technically a crime, no government is going to go after an Internet operator for running an amusement game in which the only thing a player can win is the right to play the same game again, even if there is a charge to play.

Bottom line, there's gambling going on in Helios Casino but it's likely not gamble-y enough to get busted.

 

You are looking at "legal definitions" in the above post. We are mostly discussing "normal English", "common sense" definitions. Just to clarify!

If it were "not called gambling", possibly due to the legal definition not matching, yet if it were both addictive and dangerous for some people (potential loss of the same things they'd lose with other addictions), possibly we'd need to find another term instead of "gambling", to make it clear - that this is "bad".

[EliseAnne85]

19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

if it were both addictive and dangerous for some people (potential loss of the same things they'd lose with other addictions), possibly we'd need to find another term instead of "gambling", to make it clear - that this is "bad".

With loot boxes and now internet pseudo-Casino games (not even sure what to call them), the only thing people who spend considerable amounts of money on these is for bragging rights.  

When Gacha first started I'm sure people were addicted not only to completing the set but the bragging rights to say they were the first the get the rare.  It was like a race.  After some time though the market was flooded with Gachas, so bragging rights went down considerably.  

Although with loot boxes, bragging rights continued as a major hook and that's why people kept buying.  With this Casino, I see bragging rights as the main hook for the ones who keep buying the tokens because they are not going to actually win anything else of actual value except some "hidden score" or as a few others have said in this thread, a few people who cheer them on to win at their big bet and turn some heads their way. 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Persephone Emerald]

There are plenty of sketchy activities going on in Second Life - some that are potentially addictive, some that are ethically "bad" by some definitions, and some that are legally questionable. I give Linden Lab a pass on these things, because I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to police everyone and everything that goes on in SL.

When the company itself sponsors these kinds of things however, they're not only allowing their users to be harmed, but are also hurting the SL product.

I didn't like the gatcha fad, but at least people were getting some value for their money. I played gatcha machines a few times. I bought gatcha items on MP. One of my favorite items from the last 6 month is a set of hair and HUDs from a Meipon vendor. My biggest problem with gatchas was that they made it hard to buy exactly what I wanted, not that they were addictive.

This "social casino" thing is so much worse because the only thing it's selling *is* the addiction.

[Lindal Kidd]

41 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

there's gambling going on in Helios Casino

I'm shocked...shocked! to find that gambling is going on in Helios Casino!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

With loot boxes and now internet pseudo-Casino games (not even sure what to call them), the only thing people who spend considerable amounts of money on these is for bragging rights.

This is not true. Read or listen to any of the numerous interviews and accounts from people who got roped into online social casinos. It's common for people to hide their casino addictions and gameplay due to shame and embarrassment.