New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[M Peccable]

2 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

That's true, but now with LSD a scripted object can hold at least 2500 UUIDs.  If they're hashed, you can push that number. Currently, the limit is 64KiB, but if LL lifts the capacity to 128KiB, that means you should be able to store at least 5000 UUIDs locally in persistent storage.  And, of course, you could stack up a mess of prims to make the in-world equivalent of a server bank. All of this reduces the need to shove some classes of survey data off world at all.

And it increases load on SL's servers, it increases memory usage on SL's servers (drastically), and otherwise slows down just about any operation that can be done off-world.

Sounds like a step backwards to me. My security systems from the late 2000's did all that. My newer ones don't. I've been thinking this whole time that was progress. Let's not go back.

[Sparkle Bunny]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Sparkle, I know this resident from Twitter, and I can confirm that they are not associated with BB. (Unless they've been hiding it very well!)

OK, I'll take your word for it.

I think the problem is honestly that all these 'asking forgiveness is better than asking for permission' techbros sound the same to me, combined with BB's previous tactic of taking socks out of the freezer to get these threads locked. And further illustration of my point that other people's bad behaviour does make it difficult for others in the same field.

(Which I still think is the fault of those behaving badly, rather than those at the receiving end, but yeah, it's always easier to blame dumb non-techies for everything, right?)

[Love Zhaoying]

If it doesn't work out for the Bot creators, there's always OSGrid. 

[Rowan Amore]

25 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Do I need to get explicit consent from my alts in order to track their online status?  I have an inworld device that emails me whenever any of my accounts log in.  I'd like to stay on the right side of the law (and the right side of morality) on that.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, sometimes all the serious stuff needs a laugh thrown in.

My security orb emails me the name of anyone entering my parcel.  Wonder if that's now in violation.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

My security orb emails me the name of anyone entering my parcel.  Wonder if that's now in violation.

Probably an example of implicit consent!

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

My security orb emails me the name of anyone entering my parcel.  Wonder if that's now in violation.

Mine doesn't email the names, but it does store a list that I can review.  

hmmmm

[Silent Mistwalker]

13 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

now with LSD a scripted object can hold at least 2500 UUIDs.

Wow! The colors!

[M Peccable]

13 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Mine doesn't email the names, but it does store a list that I can review.  

hmmmm

If I'm on that list I am going to file an AR against you, because I did not explicitly opt-in to your orb! 😠

This is a good example of not knowing what items people may have that are in danger of getting broken. Unless you have some way to know for sure, then we don't know if your orb is storing its list off world or not. Most won't even think about it, until they pull it out of inventory just to find it doesn't work anymore, with the creator not being at fault.

Edited March 31, 2023 by M Peccable

[Sparkle Bunny]

Visitor trackers have been around forever, so I always assume when I go to a parcel that somebody will know I've been there. That said, I'd prefer to be informed that I'm being tracked than not. It's just good manners.

[Rolig Loon]

2 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

That doesn't make the tiniest difference though if we're talking about how LSL compares to C#, SQL and whatever is used to process work outside of SL.

That's why I said explicitly 

9 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

All of this reduces the need to shove some classes of survey data off world at all.

I'm not saying this is a panacaea.  I was responding specifically to the comment about how much information can be stored internally in lists in a script. LSD allows us to hold way more data and retrieve it more easily than we could even a year ago.  For some classes of survey data, this means not needing to ship things to an external server and back. It's not going to help operations on the scale of CasperVend much, but there are loads of small and mid-sized systems that can handle data easily in house now.  I will not pretend to guess how systems like Casper or your own handle data. Still, I can imagine that there may be ways that LSD might help for doing in-world preprocessing so that you don't need to send a whole wad of data off world for C#, SQL or whatever to chew on it. And some of that preprocessing might cleanse the data of recognizable PII.

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Mine doesn't email the names, but it does store a list that I can review.  

hmmmm

If the list is stored inworld, you have nothing to worry about. It's only when info is stored outside of SL/LL's servers that people start getting itchy. I don't blame them. They have good reason to be concerned since LL has no jurisdiction outside of their own servers/products/websites.

[bunboxmomo]

17 minutes ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

(Which I still think is the fault of those behaving badly, rather than those at the receiving end, but yeah, it's always easier to blame dumb non-techies for everything, right?)

That's a lot of projection.
Can you not?

[Love Zhaoying]

Most of those so-called "acting badly" don't really know, in the majority of cases we are discussing, that what they are doing is "wrong". Similar to most people we may call "bad", "mean", or even "evil" don't consider themselves as such. I'm willing to give them a break, but not my data.

[Polenth Yue]

51 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Actually based on responses of people who maintain [redacted] in this thread, they did actually talk to LL about it and did have the go ahead from what I understand. It was apparently LL's idea to even talk about the opt out here in this forum, hoping it would help win residents over and alieve those fears, but this instead had the opposite impact.

It's ok to not like [redacted], but lets not engage in revisionism to asume our position is an objective truth? Subjective opinions about if you like it or not can be, and are, equally valid without having to do that.

When people suggested an opt-out, the response of the people running those bots was that they were glad it annoyed people and they weren't going to allow opt-outs so that they could annoy people more. When people were concerned about data including avatar names, this was dismissed as legal and within the rules. It was afterwards that Linden Lab talked to them and suddenly there was an opt-out.

At the time, I said it didn't present them in a good light and I got a laugh emoji in response. But I was right, because now, public presentation is everything. Bot runners have to persuade estate owners to whitelist them.

The best thing they could do is focus on a more positive presentation going forward. Accept that everything has changed and work on showing people why whitelisting would benefit them. People who run clubs and other hangout spots are likely to be interested in a top spots service, so the obvious marketing angle is there.

[elleevelyn]

5 minutes ago, M Peccable said:

If I'm on that list I am going to file an AR against you, because I did not explicitly opt-in to your orb! 😠

WARNING!  All Intruders into my parcel space will be surveiled if you do not leave within 60 seconds. After which time I  will exercise my parcel space domain rights to inspect the contents of your bag attachment points, just in case you might of pinched something !!!

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Most of those so-called "acting badly" don't really know, in the majority of cases we are discussing, that what they are doing is "wrong". Similar to most people we may call "bad", "mean", or even "evil" don't consider themselves as such. I'm willing to give them a break, but not my data.

That's basically my point, at its core people are genuinely doing what they think is best for SL, on either side of this. It's not a matter of side vs side, it's we're all residents who care about SL and want to make SL better, but we all have different ideas on what this is, and naturally sometimes these clash.

You and I have different opinions Love, you don't displace onto me for example that I'm some moustache twirling evil scripter.

I just don't think it's fair to vilify bot operators when there is a genuine passion there in a lot of them.

[Rowan Amore]

Just another thing they'll need to change in the ToS.

20 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Mine doesn't email the names, but it does store a list that I can review.  

hmmmm

Mine stores the list, too.

[xDancingStarx]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Probably an example of implicit consent!

What do you even mean? There is no such thing as "implicit consent" as far as things like GDRP are concerned.

 

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Most of those so-called "acting badly" don't really know, in the majority of cases we are discussing, that what they are doing is "wrong". Similar to most people we may call "bad", "mean", or even "evil" don't consider themselves as such. I'm willing to give them a break, but not my data.

I don't even know what this means. Who is "we", and who do you call bad, mean or evil?

[M Peccable]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Just another thing they'll need to change in the ToS.

Mine stores the list, too.

If you are saying they will have to change the TOS to say no avatar lists can be stored outside of SL, you are being way to nonchalant. If that were to actually occur, SL would change in ways that frankly, we can't even imagine. All of the changes would be very negative.

[Rick Nightingale]

7 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

That's basically my point, at its core people are genuinely doing what they think is best for SL...

I think a lot of people are genuinely doing what is best purely for themselves, especially when running some service that has potential commercial value. Regardless of how they try to spin it. That's the way of the world.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Rick Nightingale

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, Rick Nightingale said:

I think a lot of people are genuinely doing what is best purely for themselves, especially when running some service that has potencial commercial value. That's the way of the world.

GridSurvey has been running for over a decade with no monetisation.
This is true for pretty much all the bot networks.

[Rick Nightingale]

I didn't say everyone.

[xDancingStarx]

2 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

with no monetisation

It's fatally wrong to see monetisation as something bad.

[Sparkle Bunny]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Most of those so-called "acting badly" don't really know, in the majority of cases we are discussing, that what they are doing is "wrong". Similar to most people we may call "bad", "mean", or even "evil" don't consider themselves as such. I'm willing to give them a break, but not my data.

I do actually agree that Those Who Must Not Be Named are not actively evil, just fundamentally... unserious? By which I mean that they seemed to get a lot more enjoyment out of the drama than they would have done had they actually been trying to accomplish something useful, rather than just trolling everyone.

Of course, if they were anything like as clever as they thought they were they'd have been able to think through the implications of what they were doing, including the possible impact on legitimate bot owners, but they couldn't be bothered. Easier to blame everyone else for being 'paranoid'.

[M Peccable]

8 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

I think a lot of people are genuinely doing what is best purely for themselves, especially when running some service that has potencial commercial value. Regardless of how they try to spin it. That's the way of the world.

You make it sound like the services they provide or objects they create has no value to the resident using it.

Most of us who have created elaborate services or products will never recover the monetary value invested in all the time it took to create the service/object in question.

In my case it's a labor of love -- not a selfish self-interest. I glean more satisfaction for someone complimenting my product and telling me how useful it has been to them more than I do when I hear the cash register.

Watching it become more and more tattered as it's data becomes more and more fractured will be painful.

Edited April 1, 2023 by M Peccable