The bot war is over and the bot farmers have won :-(

[Rowan Amore]

50 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

My candor about the post you respect and elevate, is it was rude and insulting.  I cannot understand why you would want to elevate such a post and "give 2 thank you's" as you put it.  Let alone stereotype your own community as paranoid.  Many come to the forums with real reasons and needs, and discussion is important.  

What you responded too was a trollist bait post, and it seems to me, the real reason you want to elevate it is to get the thread shut down.

To the OP, in case the thread gets shut down, can you check 'allow PIOF' on your parcel?  You can do that in the meantime to keep the bots out until something else comes along.  Unfortunately, doing that keeps others out with no PIOF as well.  

I feel after seeing someone so, imo, uncaringly agree with a troll to put the whole SL community down, made me feel like the SL community is nothing.  It's all profit that matters.  And, the truth and those in need don't matter.

Let's put this a different way then.  

I couldn't care less if bots get my not so personal data and post it wherever they choose.  My opinion.  

I also  respect those who have a differing opinion and applaud their right to say so.

The paranoia part was a bit over the top in regards to most people but there are those who thought the bots were indeed someone 'stalking' them.  In @Coffee Pancake's case, it was true.  In 99.9% of the cases, It's not.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, EliseAnne85 said:

My candor about the post you respect and elevate, is it was rude and insulting.  I cannot understand why you would want to elevate such a post and "give 2 thank you's" as you put it.  Let alone stereotype your own community as paranoid.  Many come to the forums with real reasons and needs, and discussion is important.  

What you responded too was a trollist bait post, and it seems to me, the real reason you want to elevate it is to get the thread shut down.

To the OP, in case the thread gets shut down, can you check 'allow PIOF' on your parcel?  You can do that in the meantime to keep the bots out until something else comes along.  Unfortunately, doing that keeps others out with no PIOF as well.  

I feel after seeing someone so, imo, uncaringly agree with a troll to put the whole SL community down, made me feel like the SL community is nothing.  It's all profit that matters.  And, the truth and those in need don't matter.

Sorry, missed your post. Luckily, someone quoted you!

You make a lot of assumptions. I explained very, very carefully and clearly to Scylla my reaction to the post in question.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the path of assumptions you were taking, may have been leading you astray of both my meaning, and my intent.

As an aside, I do agree that from a certain perspective, using the term "paranoid" does seem insulting. However, from an "outsider's" perspective, it seems pretty obvious that most everyone who is reacting so very strongly seems just a tad "over the top". So from that perspective, I can see why an "outsider" may seem dismissive and use terms that could seem offensive - such as "paranoid".

After all, it's just a "game". And, we've been told repeatedly that the information  in question is public. So far as I understand, these are "facts".

What would I do? As a landowner: Guess I'd set my land to "PIOF", given no other options. As a merchant? I'm not a merchant, and that side of the discussion is newer to me- I have no skin in that game. So, I can only try to do what I suggest others do: attempt to understand other's point of view, and be supportive. 

[Innula Zenovka]

8 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

But..... weeks have past and everything is only still ........ just on its way.
Or is it somewhere on the bottom of the to do list from someone overworked already?
Will any of it arrive in a fashionable time? 2023-2024-2025 -....- 2049 - ... end of times for SL?

I still don't hold my breath until this eventually happens. LL is still trying to simply wait until the storm is over IMHO.

<--------------------------------

From what I know of LL's development and testing cycle for new LSL functions, it's inevitably going to take a few months for any new function to be delivered.     The engineers' workload  and the simulator release cycles are programmed several months in advance.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Innula Zenovka

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

From what I know of LL's development and testing cycle for new LSL functions, it's inevitably going to take a few months for any new function to be delivered.     The engineers' workload  and simulator the simulator release cycles are programmed several months in advance.

I do hope they take every testing opportunity, after the last few recent disasters (scripts wouldn't run, etc.). To that end, "it takes as long as it takes". Definitely saw the new "ban the bots" function in RC notes..?

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Sorry, missed your post. Luckily, someone quoted you!

You make a lot of assumptions. I explained very, very carefully and clearly to Scylla my reaction to the post in question.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the path of assumptions you were taking, may have been leading you astray of both my meaning, and my intent.

As an aside, I do agree that from a certain perspective, using the term "paranoid" does seem insulting. However, from an "outsider's" perspective, it seems pretty obvious that most everyone who is reacting so very strongly seems just a tad "over the top". So from that perspective, I can see why an "outsider" may seem dismissive and use terms that could seem offensive - such as "paranoid".

After all, it's just a "game". And, we've been told repeatedly that the information  in question is public. So far as I understand, these are "facts".

What would I do? As a landowner: Guess I'd set my land to "PIOF", given no other options. As a merchant? I'm not a merchant, and that side of the discussion is newer to me- I have no skin in that game. So, I can only try to do what I suggest others do: attempt to understand other's point of view, and be supportive. 

Your post is long so it's not so easy to respond but I will try my best.

First, you say calling SLers paranoid seems insulting.  It does to me.  To me, it was an ad hominin attack.  All or general SLers should be given the benefit of the doubt as individuals and not all lumped together as one.  They pay for land, they want their privacy.  It's more about power and what is in our control than paranoia.   And, if moderators (which you seem to be a sort of moderator here on SL forums as you are here every day) agree to ad hominin attacks, the SL community becomes a "a do as I say, not do as I do" community.  

The way you responded to the paranoia post and wanted to elevate it seemed out of character for you, I will admit, however.  I have never seen you act in an ad hominin way towards others before.  It took me by surprise.  But, with the bots, there isn't fair power inworld nor on the forums to even discuss it, and if people seem over the top, it may be that.

However, publishing false information about one's income from SL should not be tolerated.  The bots in question did that.  

I've spoken about how often textures can take up to 20 hours of work, which would be about $500 dollars in real life money only to try and sell it for .30 to .50 cents.  Merchants work harder than I've ever worked in my entire life, and I don't need more work put on me from bots falsifying any income I make here.  It's way too much work to be a creator as it is.   And, I have friends who say "I will never do another event again".   Even events are way more work than creator's need.  We don't need more work from these bots!  That's anger, not paranoia.  

Edited March 25, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Innula Zenovka]

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Respectfully, I think you're conflating two different issues regarding bots.

The first (and to my mind, most important) relates to data harvesting, which is after all the primary function of a pretty large class of bots. That's where privacy issues come in. Although there are outward signs that there has been some quiet behind-the-scenes constraints imposed upon at least one bot operation, I have seen no indication that LL is going to do anything to curtail the activity itself. What they might do (and maybe have been doing, again, quietly) is restrict how and where that data can be made public.

I don't think concerns about data scraping represent "paranoia." Gather enough data about anyone, and you can do some pretty invasive things, ranging from alt-detection and extortion or threats, to targeted advertising. Aggregate that personal data with the equally invasive and comprehensive data about other people, and you can do even more. That's why data is such a hot commodity in social media, no?

The second, which may actually be bugging some people far more, is simply the annoyance of having bots intrusively popping up on one's own land like weeds. This doesn't necessarily relate to data collection, which can happen from anywhere within a region -- its really just more about being annoyed by someone randomly materializing in your living room without invitation. That's not about "paranoia," then -- it's more a matter of just wanting to be left alone. And the sense I'm getting is that there is a LOT more of that happening recently, and not just from the one group we've all been talking about. In fact, the spokesperson from that group even said as much themselves to me on Twitter recently -- although they think the activity is dying down again. I'm not so sure.

We're big on the "my land, my rules" mantra here. By that token, if you're annoyed by the constant appearance of bots on yours, you shouldn't need to justify your desire to keep them out. And you really shouldn't be labeled "paranoid" merely because you do.

Scylla, I think we started to explore this in one of the other threads just before it got locked, so let's see if we have more luck here.

What "data scraping" or "data harvesting" do you say a scripted agent in SL is capable of?   Outside SL, depending on the privacy settings you've chosen in your web browser, people can use both cookies and the data your web browser sends them to track your searches, where you arrive on a page from, which links you click, and so on, but that's not possible in SL.

All a bot can do in SL is grab some basic data about your avatar if it happens to visit a region at the same time you're there.   And if you consider the number of regions in SL, combined with the fact agents (scripted or otherwise) are limited to (I think) 6 teleports in a minute, the odds are pretty good that most of us are going to encounter them only very rarely.

If I wanted to gather data on avatars I'd not waste my time having an army of bots flit around the grid hoping to find people.   I'd rent small parcels on regions with high-traffic locations and drop scripts in objects on my parcels, or drop them in my vendors or ad boards at the locations themselves.

[Doris Johnsky]

Other than one region that has a bot female wandering around from designated point to other points, and the occasional club bot, are people just putting bots on a region, then letting it wander like a stray mutt? 

 

This is not a sarcastic question, I really want to know.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Ad hominem attacks: if what is said is not true, why let it bother you? If you think someone is intentionally trolling, why let it bother you?

Thanks for your reply, which sure seemed as long as my own.

While I am by NO means any type of moderator, I appreciate your contributions to the Forum and always learn something from what you post.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

With the exception of Belli, of course, LL seems quite happy with letting mainland continue as the Wild West, neglected, somewhat forgotten, and without the kinds of tools and constraints that empower landowners and renters elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but this comes across as if you do not have much faith that LL will "do the right thing". If that is the case, I am sorry you feel that way -  and hope that you are both proved wrong, and also pleased by LL's actions in the (hopefully) near future. 

[EliseAnne85]

39 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ad hominem attacks: if what is said is not true, why let it bother you? If you think someone is intentionally trolling, why let it bother you?

Well, some of this erroneous data that was harvested involves our business.  And, if someone on the forum posts an ad hominin attack, it's an attack on our business in this situation.  People went to that website and were reading incorrect business accounting information and believing it was true.  

Merchants aren't paranoid.  It's the hassle that was created we don't need let alone have time for.  

It's creating an anger and frustration issue.  But, the reason it upset me is it seems these bots are more important than the merchants, land owners, and the people of the community of SL, and so I feel others want to dumb us down regarding the bots who have the importance.  Now, what I just wrote may sound paranoid but it does sometimes seem that way - that the bots are more important overall than the people of SL.  And the bots are "babied" in a way.  If these were just land scouting bots to find land for sale and then publish it as classifieds, why didn't they just make themselves invisible and collect land information if that is what they really are after?   However, I actually don't know what they are after but some of their published information has been false.

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Sid Nagy]

That there are bots around, is all fine and well, can be useful for all kinds of stuff. I have no problems with that.
But the moment the bot owners start to combine harvested data and link it to individual avatars and publish about them on the Internet, that is simply a bridge too far for a lot of people (including me) to be comfortable with.

What happens in SL should stay in SL and certainly when the info is linked to individual avatars it should not be published elsewhere or maybe even sold to others.
 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Rowan Amore]

53 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

We don't need more work from these bots!

What are.you going on about?  How does a bot create anymore.work for you or.any merchant?

 

55 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

However, publishing false information about one's income from SL should not be tolerated. 

What is done on another website is outside of LL's control.  If they are gathering that information without breaking ToS, again, not much LL can do about it.   

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

What is done on another website is outside of LL's control.  If they are gathering that information without breaking ToS, again, not much LL can do about it.   

LL was allowing internal links to be displayed on an outside site and that afaik is within LL's control.

[Sid Nagy]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

What are.you going on about?  How does a bot create anymore.work for you or.any merchant?

 

What is done on another website is outside of LL's control.  If they are gathering that information without breaking ToS, again, not much LL can do about it.   

And that's why IMHO LL should alter the ToS section about the use of bots in SL.
That will not work 100% but it opens doors that are closed at the moment.

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

LL was allowing internal links to be displayed on an outside site and that afaik is within LL's control.

And they did, AFAIK, stop doing that.  It simply takes.you to search now?

ETA...there are no links now to outside sites aside from the busy regions which, I recall, was what their goal was initially.  Let people know where people are.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[EliseAnne85]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If they are gathering that information without breaking ToS, again, not much LL can do about it.   

It's not real SL information, it's false, but being portrayed as real SL information.  The TOS Privacy Policy seems to be talking about rl personal information one reveals themselves is not LL's problem.  However, I never said LL would or could do anything about false information; just that it's being tolerated at this time.  So, how does it create more work for me, I'd have to take the time to have it corrected or removed.  

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Sid Nagy said:

And that's why IMHO LL should alter the ToS section about the use of bots in SL.
That will not work 100% but it opens doors that are closed at the moment.

As @Innula Zenovkamentioned, there are other ways besides bots to gather this information.   

I, as a simple avatar can harvest the exact same data.on hundreds of people a day if I stood at Exhale or another busy place.  

[Ceka Cianci]

39 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Well, some of this erroneous data that was harvested involves our business.  And, if someone on the forum posts an ad hominin attack, it's an attack on our business in this situation.  People went to that website and were reading incorrect business accounting information and believing it was true.  

Merchants aren't paranoid.  It's the hassle that was created we don't need let alone have time for.  

It's creating an anger and frustration issue.  But, the reason it upset me is it seems these bots are more important than the merchants, land owners, and the people of the community of SL, and so I feel others want to dumb us down regarding the bots who have the importance.  Now, what I just wrote may sound paranoid but it does sometimes seem that way - that the bots are more important overall than the people of SL.  And the bots are "babied" in a way.  If these were just land scouting bots to find land for sale and then publish it as classifieds, why didn't they just make themselves invisible and collect land information if that is what they really are after?   However, I actually don't know what they are after but some of their published information has been false.

 

From the looks of it they don't have that on there anymore.. They don't have marketplace things or avatars profiles..

It looks more cleaned up since back when those first threads were started up about it..

 

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And they did, AFAIK, stop doing that.  It simply takes.you to search now?

I did say "was". In any case we don't know if that was because of LL or the site as a result of talks with S/L. What about the next site that decides not to be so accommodating?

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

From the looks of it they don't have that on there anymore.. They don't have marketplace things or avatars profiles..

It looks more cleaned up since back when those first threads were started up about it..

 

Yeah, for now.  Trust is earned, so we shall see.  

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I did say "was". In any case we don't know if that was because of LL or the site as a result of talks with S/L. What about the next site that decides not to be so accommodating?

I'm sure people are.already sharpening their pitchforks.in anticipation.  😊

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, EliseAnne85 said:

Yeah, for now.  Trust is earned, so we shall see.  

I'm just going by what I noticed there.. I know they did that with the profiles at first awhile ago.. Then went in recently and seen the MP things were gone as well..

 

As far as the MP information they were giving.. I don't think the big deal for them was the dollar number as much as which places was selling more..

In other words, it wasn't about the actual sales in dollar amounts, but the dollar amounts that were picked up by their bots placed each store on the list..  I don't think it was about getting those numbers accurate but giving a measurement for placement..

They couldn't get the accurate numbers anyways if they wanted to..all they could do is say this is the one that is selling more and this is the amount our bots picked up to show they do sell more than the ones below them..

They could never get in world numbers and individual sales..

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

I'm sure people are.already sharpening their pitchforks.in anticipation.  😊

I think a lot of the pushback was a result of their initial belligerence in justifying their data harvesting a searchable database, which is what made it problematic for many residents. You and a few others seem to not get that it isn't about whether others can get the same info but that it was a coordinated effort to accumulate and publish that data for others to peruse, even if they were not a member of S/L.

[Sid Nagy]

26 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

As @Innula Zenovkamentioned, there are other ways besides bots to gather this information.   

I, as a simple avatar can harvest the exact same data.on hundreds of people a day if I stood at Exhale or another busy place.  

Sure you can, but with a bot you can do that data gathering on thousands of individuals within a jiffy and that is the big difference.  They can gather all about us available in a relatively short time that is totally impossible without bots.
And they get all the info automated on their PC's and draw conclusions on individuals that would be impossible to do in that scale without the use of bots.
So allowed bot use should in my opinion be very strictly formulated in ToS to protect the individuals that use SL.
Again, that would not stop them 100%, but it would weaken their position and it would give LL tools to act against excessive use of bots IMHO. 
 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Scylla Rhiadra]

13 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

From the looks of it they don't have that on there anymore.. They don't have marketplace things or avatars profiles..

It looks more cleaned up since back when those first threads were started up about it..

 

We're getting into dangerous territory here, as we know how LL and the mods feel about discussions specific to one particular group of bots.

I'll just say that developments over the past few weeks have meant in effect that the amount of really invasive information available off-grid has been greatly reduced. That doesn't mean it's still not be collecting -- and we don't know why, or what plans there are to deploy it in some new form -- but the situation has, at least in terms of publicly viewable information on the web, much improved.