Open letter to Linden Lab: Enforcing policies?

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Laylah Yaseotoko said:

As soon as you turn on to only allow people with payment info on file you get rid of the bots, you will loose the patronage of a few alts or people who do not want to put their info on file but I suppose that is an acceptable trade-off, at least to me.

Sometimes, you have nothing too loose!

[EliseAnne85]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Want to know how much money Blueberry made over the last two weeks? It's there . . . on the site.

I saw something quickly in the first thread about this, sales figures.  Sales figures of each individual company on SL are not public, how did bots get this information?  Sales figures LL may know but not the SL population.  This feels like a hacking.  Enable 2fa as a Linden suggested and stay off that website for now or go in with someone else's computer not associated to your real life data.

Edited January 24, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Phil Deakins]

3 minutes ago, Maitimo said:

Right. Its use for this purpose is an exploit.

I'm puzzled by that.

On the LSL page that was linked to earlier (https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetObjectDetails), one of the flags for getting object details (avatars/agents are objects) is OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL. It returns 0 for Basic, 1 for Premium and 10 for Premium Plus. Using it is not an exploit.

What I'm puzzled about though is that that flag, and some others, are in red, whereas most of the flags are in blue. What does red signify? I can't find any explanation on the page.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

On the LSL page that was linked to earlier (https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetObjectDetails), one of the flags for getting object details (avatars/agents are objects) is OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL. It returns 0 for Basic, 1 for Premium and 10 for Premium Plus. Using it is not an exploit.

What I'm puzzled about though is that that flag, and some others, are in red, whereas most of the flags are in blue. What does red signify? I can't find any explanation on the page.

Probably because it was "new". Did you make sure that the red link "OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL" actually is a valid link?  Often the links with different colors, are not valid.

[Phil Deakins]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Probably because it was "new". Did you make sure that the red link "OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL" actually is a valid link?  Often the links with different colors, are not valid.

The red ones are valid links but, of the few reds and blues that I tried, it looks like the blues go to pages with information, whereas the reds go to pages that say there is no information. Perhaps the reds are very new and their pages haven't yet been written.

[Ceka Cianci]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Probably because it was "new". Did you make sure that the red link "OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL" actually is a valid link?  Often the links with different colors, are not valid.

I think those are red because  they lead to a page that has no information yet, where the others in blue link to pages  with information.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

whereas the reds go to pages that say there is no information. Perhaps the reds are very new and their pages haven't yet been written.

TECHNICALLY valid links.  But yes, I called it! Go me!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I'm puzzled by that.

On the LSL page that was linked to earlier (https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetObjectDetails), one of the flags for getting object details (avatars/agents are objects) is OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL. It returns 0 for Basic, 1 for Premium and 10 for Premium Plus. Using it is not an exploit.

We can argue terminology all day, but I agree - "words means something".

Exploit: Using code as it was not intended to be used; taking advantage of code and mis-using it.

Not an Exploit: Publishing data obtained through using code as it was intended to be used.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

43 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

Needing to use a script just to see that information doesn't make it "public", just means it's accessible to those who know how to get it. If it's so public as claimed, but there's no option to display it anywhere, it's not public but instead hidden.

Is a telephone number in a phone book "public" or "hidden"? After all, you need to open the book to find it.

[Phil Deakins]

 

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

TECHNICALLY valid links.  But yes, I called it! Go me!

You did

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

You did

 

I pat myself on the back, because all those Bot discussions and I refrained from saying your name 3 times, like "Beetlejuice!"

Edited January 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying
"name" not "names"

[TimKoul]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Is a telephone number in a phone book "public" or "hidden"? After all, you need to open the book to find it.

That's a really stupid comparison.

[Phil Deakins]

Public or hidden?

The data is publicly available. That makes it public, imo.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Is a telephone number in a phone book "public" or "hidden"? After all, you need to open the book to find it.

"What's a phone book"? Is it one of those paper things people used to read, that took up space?

1 minute ago, TimKoul said:

That's a really stupid comparison.

Google says this is an "informal logical fallacy" - an "Appeal to Ridicule".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

[Phil Deakins]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I pat myself on the back, because all those Bot discussions and I refrained from saying your name 3 times, like "Beetlejuice!"

Qie only needed to say my name once and I was in

 

[EliseAnne85]

4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Public or hidden?

The data is publicly available. That makes it public, imo.

You are talking about a script which makes something public or all our data on SL is public?  Sales data on Blueberry nor any other business in SL is public.  When are people going to get real about this issue?

[Istelathis]

Only a few months ago, @Arielle Popstar @Paulsianmyself and a few others were ridiculed for expressing concern for privacy on the web in general, now it seems everyone has climbed onboard with our paranoia 🤣 People who make a living on advertising will of course, typically support invasive techniques to accumulate your data, and sell it.  My own paranoia stems beyond advertising, and just how far this will impact our lives due to who that data can be sold to and purposes beyond advertising used.

In the grand scheme of things, these bots do not trouble me nearly as much as web trackers do.  Surely, they are intrusive, there should be more privacy in SL that offers people a feeling of safety here, allowing us to only share data with specific people, or groups  would be a step in the right direction.  The data they get, is mostly what we willingly provide on our profiles though, with the exception of if our accounts are premium or not, and our rezday.  Giving people more tools to acquire that data though, that is just foolishness, especially considering LL does not use advertising to fund their operation.  

Sadly, outside of providing us tools to maintain a level of privacy, while making it more difficult for others to acquire it, does not ensure it.  Where a lot of this energy needs to be diverted to, is our own governments that allow the sale of our data to various advertises, and further still, ensuring it is never abused.  LL can provide us the tools to help make it more difficult, they can give the people who want to use our data for profit less tools, but they can not control what happens to that data if it is acquired.  

Ultimately, it is left up to us to be more careful with that what we share with the world.  

As far as using bots to game the system, this defeats the purpose of auctions, for people who want social events and rely upon games that reward participants with $L are cheated out of their money by them, they are abused in several ways that need to be addressed, for the sake of functionality of SL. 

Making people feel more secure in SL is almost a given, if people start feeling too paranoid to even log into SL, that is going to be a problem.  Now that the ball is rolling, and people are expressing a concern for their privacy, LL is going to need to address this and fairly soon.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Istelathis

[Phil Deakins]

6 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

You are talking about a script which makes something public or all our data on SL is public?  Sales data on Blueberry nor any other business in SL is public.  When are people going to get real about this issue?

There is a lot of publicly available information about me as an individual that is not displayed openly. Local council holds a lot of it that anyone can access by doing certain things. In SL the data being talked about is also available to anyone by doing certain things. That's what I mean by publicly available.

Whether is should be or not (legally) is another discussion entirely. Just because something is publicly available doesn't mean that it is legal for it to be publicly available.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I saw something quickly in the first thread about this, sales figures, even monthly.  Sales figures of each individual company on SL are not public, how did bots get this information?  Sales figures LL may know but not the SL population.  This feels like a hacking.  Enable 2fa as a Linden suggested and stay off that website for now or go in with someone else's computer not associated to your real life data.

The theory floated by @Prokofy Neva (and I can't think of a better) is that they are scooping the data from the recent purchases feature on the MP. In which case it is obviously very incomplete.

It is "public" in the sense that someone with the know-how can scrape it. It would be like someone watching how much I am charged every time I go grocery shopping by looking at the register over my shoulder, and then publishing my weekly grocery expenses without my permission. The individual bits of data are "public," but . . .

[Ceka Cianci]

4 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

You are talking about a script which makes something public or all our data on SL is public?  Sales data on Blueberry nor any other business in SL is public.  When are people going to get real about this issue?

I think it is only the market place where they get the sales numbers.. I don't believe they can get the in world numbers, just whats selling on the MP.

Also you don't need to be logged into the MP to search the MP. just to buy something or to get to your account stuff there..

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Ultimately, it is left up to us to be more careful with that what we share with the world.  

In this case, we did not have a choice whether we "shared" that our account is Premium.

[Rowan Amore]

LL has walked back other functions in the past.  To get back on topic...they could also walk back POLICIES that the no longer, never did nor ever plan to enforce.  The policy on bots gaming traffic?  Anyone know if it's ever been used or used recently?   Do they need to add to it in regards to information gleaning?  Limit the numbers per user?  Implement their use as a paid service?  

Maybe we should all take a look at this page...

Linden Lab Official:Suggesting a policy change - Second Life Wiki  

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

8 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

You are talking about a script which makes something public or all our data on SL is public?  Sales data on Blueberry nor any other business in SL is public.  When are people going to get real about this issue?

I think it is only the market place where they get the sales numbers.. I don't believe they can get the in world numbers, just whats selling on the MP.

Also you don't need to be logged into the MP to search the MP. just to buy something or to get to your account stuff there..

Didn't Casper say earlier that those sales figures are not accurate? I trust his statement.

[Phil Deakins]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The policy on bots gaming traffic?

They don't have a policy on bots gaming traffic. They have a policy on gaming traffic by whatever means, and another policy on bots though

 

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Whether is should be or not (legally) is another discussion entirely.

Publicly accessible sales data is only required for companies listed on the stock exchange.  How bots got sales data on SL businesses and have now published it is beyond me.  

How do we know they don't have our passwords too, and btw, if anyone could answer where do we change our passwords?  I've currently forgotten.