"The Glories of the Mainland"

[Prokofy Neva]

So the new VP of Engineering, Mojo Linden (love the name!) appeared at one of the code meetings in July (I will have to find it) and caused me to fall out of my chair! I am still nursing a broken femur.

He spoke of the "glories of the Mainland" (!) and how these could be accentuated more.

!!!

Of course, my own view (and yours) regarding glorification of these glories is more along the lines of policy, not code, you know, on ad farming.

But this Linden of course thinks in code (while he may not dream of electric sheep) and suggests that one of the things to do for drivers on the Mainland is to have a better "preview" of the next sim coming in.

I envisioned it as a sort of "Postcard from Second Life," whereas the wait or dog-leg over the sim seam would not be as onerous as you would have this lovely "preview".

In a sense, I think he was speaking to the wrong pew. That is, among those TPV devs and scripters are definitely some Mainland owners and renters -- I know them. But by and large, they "live without touching the ground with their feet" although their voices are *indeed* heard at ten paces, to reference Mayakovsky. That is, they don't live and work on Mainland or go on pod safaris; they are in sandboxes or Linden office hours or just flying around here and there.

So I really think he should come and speak at a MonCierge meeting which would certainly liven up those meetings and make them feel as if they are connected to a real telephone at the lab, as now, they aren't really hooked up.

I personally wonder just WHAT would be previewed. The upcoming sim WITH its builds? That could be a buzz-kill.

On the other hand, to get a beautiful imagine of an upcoming region which is like the view you'd have is "volume" was turned off could be misleading and disorienting.

You can already kind of see into the next sim depending on your graphics capacity and draw distance.

If we're going to do code things for the Mainland, this idea dosn't seem to me to be a priority at all. I'd much rather that Mojo use his clout to get landmarks put back the way they were -- to default into the landmarks instead of the "favourites" folder where EVERY landmark does NOT belong.

I have a list of 100 other things.

Still, I think it's awfully interesting that a Linden at his level hasn't been spoiled yet by the naysayers regarding the Legacy Mainland. I think he'll get distracted or talked out of these thoughts soon so grab him if you see him again. I would ask him to fix landmarks, myself (they aren't ruined on TPVs so most people don't care).

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Aethelwine]

We can already see across region boundaries, I really can't see what they could mean by previewing a region.

Unless it is to make region crossing transitions smoother? Perhaps preparing for the handover earlier? 

[animats]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

one of the things to do for drivers on the Mainland is to have a better "preview" of the next sim coming in.

I've discussed doing that. See this article i wrote on the forums last April. That shows how GTA V presents a big world with distant objects.  It's standard game technology. It's how Google Earth works. I'm considering doing it in my experimental viewer. I'm glad to hear that LL is picking up on this.

If it's done right, few people will notice that it's happening. People don't notice in GTA.

 

[Aethelwine]

24 minutes ago, animats said:

I've discussed doing that. See this article i wrote on the forums last April. That shows how GTA V presents a big world with distant objects.  It's standard game technology. It's how Google Earth works. I'm considering doing it in my experimental viewer. I'm glad to hear that LL is picking up on this.

If it's done right, few people will notice that it's happening. People don't notice in GTA.

 

Ohh I do like that !

The cynic in me wants to comment about being able to see the floating skyboxes, airports and discarded sky junk for miles around rendered in glorious detail !

But I can happily live with that for a better view of my surroundings

It would be lovely to see the mountain in the Sakura Bellisseria area from a distance without needing to turn your draw distance up.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Spiffy Voxel]

As someone who travels the Mainland — and wishes they didn't need to reduce draw distance to keep reasonable frame-rate — any improvement to make it more 'scenic' and show off some of the beautiful landscapes would be welcome.

I know that not everything in the landscape is 'picturesque', but I see that as perhaps a challenge for Linden Lab to help residents be confident in building, decorating and landscaping, and a challenge to creators to make better mesh that is lower in land-impact.

[animats]

13 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

The cynic in me wants to comment about being able to see the floating skyboxes, airports and discarded sky junk for miles around rendered in glorious detail !

That's a problem. If you set your draw distance to 1024m, and wait while everything loads, you'll see a lot of sky junk in some places. Best case, New Babbage, which has good architecture and a clean sky. The long views from some of the tall towers are impressive. Worst case is the viewing spot atop Mt. Campion on Heterocera, where you get to look down on sky junk.

(Heterocera has a mountain range which covers several regions. Many SL users have never seen it, because it's so big.)

I was thinking of clipping impostors at maybe 85m (the ban line limit) above the highest terrain in a region to try to keep that under control. A few very tall buildings will get clipped, but you'll always be able to see the mountains in the distance. You have to clip impostors at some height, because they're just 2D pictures, and have a size limit. This gives users a sense of place. They can orient themselves by seeing a distant mountain or a far shore.

Something else I've thought of doing to give users a sense of place is to show the world map during teleports. The map would zoom out, pan to above the teleport destination, then zoom in. Like Google Earth.

[Mar Scarmon]

I would love to see the Lindens do almost anything to improve the "glories of the Mainland".  For that matter I would love to see the Lindens do almost anything to promote Second Life and try to attract some new people.  I heard a television snipet on CNBC where they were talking about Roblox, they said something like Roblox has more users visiting in an hour than Second Life has total users.  What a shame, because Roblox is absolutely crude in comparison.  Imagine what SL could be if they set their minds to it.

Regarding draw distance I keep mine under 300 to avoid seeing all the mainland garbage and to keep my frame rate decent.  

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mar Scarmon
grammar

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

It might not be about visual preview. If that's a linden that lives in code... then they might be trying to figure out a way to predict which sims are most likely to cross into a different region, and then begin smoothing the script and other asset loading transition before they do so. I'm guessing here that scripts load on region cross? Does anything else only load on region cross?

If I could predict with even 70% accuracy which sims were likely to enter a region soon, I'd start loading those resources for them more smoothly ahead of time. Even a 30% error rate might be acceptable if they were otherwise not facing notable lag. But that's the really hard part - because the more busy a region they're in is, the less acceptable that error rate gets. And just how do you predict this? Obviously people in vehicles make strong candidates. But in some regions like the Linden Home camping ones - a vehicle on a road is likely to snake around in all sorts of directions so using 'moving at this speed in that direction using physics based movement' suddenly has a lot more errors...

But in open water sailing and flying vehicles that same method is likely to be over 90% successful at predicting.

(All of that of course only makes any sense if my first guess about things like scripts is correct...)

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:52 PM, animats said:

I've discussed doing that. See this article i wrote on the forums last April. That shows how GTA V presents a big world with distant objects.  It's standard game technology. It's how Google Earth works. I'm considering doing it in my experimental viewer. I'm glad to hear that LL is picking up on this.

Doesn't that rely on good respect for the given game's LOD system?

LOD is meant for things like this - but if everyone is still being handed notecards telling them to use LOD 4, when they should never be above 3 and ideally be at 2 - 2.5... and mesh makers are using the 'just tell them 4' thing to load up bad LOD in all the 'distant object' settings...

The results in SL can't do what other games do because content makers are not respecting the system, and SL users are being told to configure their viewers to ignore the system anyway.

 

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

I still love the glories of the mainland, warts and all. It's where the creativity happens. 

[sunderezz]

On 9/15/2022 at 6:39 AM, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

I still love the glories of the mainland, warts and all. It's where the creativity happens. 

My love of mainland glories is only a few months old, it took me eight years in SL to see past the superficial "sky junk".  A friend bought a parcel, we saw a pod float by, jumped in and OMG!  I truly had no idea of the fascinating history & creativity that abounds here.  The brilliant pod tours were step one, they inspired me to research and hunt down historical places.  I feel like I am a noobie all over again.  Part of my exploration takes me through the many welcome sites:  a recent jaunt through eight welcome sites did not reveal any info on pod tours.  There were links to Social Island, the Moles' Homes, & Portal Park yet I was unable to see any resources to help me me grasp or engage with the Mainland.   So grateful I finally found my way here 😊

[Feorie Frimon]

4 hours ago, sunderezz said:

My love of mainland glories is only a few months old, it took me eight years in SL to see past the superficial "sky junk".  A friend bought a parcel, we saw a pod float by, jumped in and OMG!  I truly had no idea of the fascinating history & creativity that abounds here.  The brilliant pod tours were step one, they inspired me to research and hunt down historical places.  I feel like I am a noobie all over again.  Part of my exploration takes me through the many welcome sites:  a recent jaunt through eight welcome sites did not reveal any info on pod tours.  There were links to Social Island, the Moles' Homes, & Portal Park yet I was unable to see any resources to help me me grasp or engage with the Mainland.   So grateful I finally found my way here 😊

This was 100% me a year or so ago! I spent almost a decade in the SL RP community, and I bought one little parcel to play with and I saw a POD go by… and that was it.  

The PODs changed everything for me.
 

Awesome, right??? Welcome! Welcome! ❤️

[Prokofy Neva]

So this is where we jump in and note again that the pods are NOT an unmitigated "glory" and NOT beloved by all, as my polls will indicate. Those who once jumped on them jump off, and never think about them again.

But those of us WHO LIFE AND WORK HERE do NOT like them spamming on to sims every 15 minutes. When you go from sim to sim throughout the day and keep seeing them endlessly like Trumansville, it really gets old.

And nota bene: there is never anyone on them. That's because they are not used as imagined. Any measuring of the real stats on these things (which some have done) would instantly prove this. Yet the Lindens love free load tests and a few prominent Mainland lovers who want to turn the Mainland into a safari with us as the road shows -- again -- don't have to see them all the time. 

There is absolutely no reason you couldn't put them at rez zones here and there and make them rez on demand. That way people could get the benefit of them they seem to enjoy without them spamming. There are enough Linden rez zones and infohubs all over the Mainland for this.

[Feorie Frimon]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But those of us WHO LIFE AND WORK HERE do NOT like them spamming on to sims every 15 minutes. When you go from sim to sim throughout the day and keep seeing them endlessly like Trumansville, it really gets old.

You keep saying that - ‘the people who work and live here’… 

I AM one of those people you keep talking about that live on the mainland AND work there…..and I like the PODs. In fact, there is a big inworld pod community group that loves them. People post that they love them (here, inworld, on social media, etc) and I see people in them all the time. 

Each to their own, I guess?

@sunderezzThere is an inworld group and a Discord too that you can join with other people that like to ride the PODs. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 9/7/2022 at 3:17 PM, Mar Scarmon said:

 I heard a television snipet on CNBC where they were talking about Roblox, they said something like Roblox has more users visiting in an hour than Second Life has total users.

Linden Lab couldn't afford to be as "successful" as Roblox.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1190814/consolidated-loss-roblox-corporation-global/

[Istelathis]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Those who once jumped on them jump off, and never think about them again.

I enjoy hopping on them and taking tours for an hour or two while opening an internal browser and watching videos or listening to music.  A lot of the time that I use them, is when I am exploring SL from the road and I see an unoccupied one moving on a road; sometimes I will even zoom my camera out in search of one that might be nearby so I can catch a ride with it.  

I am aware that my own use of SL can not be a measure of how everyone else uses it, but through Yavascript's SL group chat, I know that I am not alone in my use of them.  However, I do acknowledge that I see more empty pods moving through the roads than occupied ones.  I for one would miss seeing them and for myself, it would feel like a loss to SL without having a form of public transportation moving along the roads.  

Edited October 13, 2022 by Istelathis

[Prokofy Neva]

33 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I enjoy hopping on them and taking tours for an hour or two while opening an internal browser and watching videos or listening to music.  A lot of the time that I use them, is when I am exploring SL from the road and I see an unoccupied one moving on a road; sometimes I will even zoom my camera out in search of one that might be nearby so I can catch a ride with it.  

I am aware that my own use of SL can not be a measure of how everyone else uses it, but through Yavascript's SL group chat, I know that I am not alone in my use of them.  However, I do acknowledge that I see more empty pods moving through the roads than occupied ones.  I for one would miss seeing them and for myself, it would feel like a loss to SL without having a form of public transportation moving along the roads.  

I'm glad you acknowledge that you see a lot of empty ones.

The ones I have seen are ALL empty. ALL.

There are already primary forms of transportation: 1) teleportation 2) flying. And lots of free vehicles of every kind.

Obviously the people in Yavascript's group chat are going to be users and fans. At least you admit that you are not representative.

If you were, I would see people in them. There never are. 

[Stephanie Misfit]

One thing I don't mind as much, because they make more sense to me than the pods, is the automated rail vehicles. LL has rail stations, after all. I have land by a railroad and it doesn't bother me when they go past, it fits in, unlike weird looking pods on the road. Those trains are looking a bit old now, but maybe there is something to be said for keeping things as they are.

 

[Zero Starchild]

I LOVE the pods, hands off!!!!