Does using links instead of copies of inventory items reduce resource use?

[Jennifer Boyle]

In most instances when I use links in inventory other than in outfits, I could just as easily use copies of items. In terms of server, viewer, or other system resources, is there an advantage to using one or the other?

[sandi Mexicola]

My guess is that everything in your inventory (whether a link or a copy) is really just a link to a large database.  It's not like there are actually items in your inventory.  Lindens might know for sure though.  🙂

[Coffee Pancake]

Your inventory is all just references. It's not the actual stuff.

Even if it was more efficient on the system to use one type over another, in the grand scheme of things you're never going to notice, nor will the database notice you in the wash of everyone else. Don't worry about it. 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

14 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Your inventory is all just references. It's not the actual stuff.

 

Even your actual stuff is not actual stuff. It's all just visual representations made of data that appear through pixels on our screens.

[Qie Niangao]

Now that you ask, I'm not sure when I'd use links other than in outfits. Maybe folders that are being attached or detached as a unit?

I need a copy when I want a separate instance of the item to change, distinct from the original. That clearly won't work with a link. I'm not really coming up with times copy and link could be functionally interchangeable.

[CandyCole]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'm not really coming up with times copy and link could be functionally interchangeable.

Admittedly not that often, but I do sometimes deliberately create a link as opposed to just copying an original item.

This happens in cases where an outfit may include a separate necktie, garter, pair of socks etc.. Subsequently my neckties, legs-garters-straps, legs-socks-stockings sections will contain a link to the original. Whether it saves even one grain of sand's worth of space somewhere I have no idea, but the theory of doing so satisfies my mind.

Outfits are just a folder full of links with front-end. By design it doesn't copy all outfit items used into another folder with the name of your outfit. So maybe there's something in the concept.

On the other hand, renaming folders to remove useless information such as; '<add to wear>', 'belleza, kupra, ebody, reborn, slink. TMP', (unpacked), (Add Me!) etc. must save space somewhere. Whether it does, or not, it looks tidier. Same as link instead of copy.

Edited August 7, 2022 by CandyCole
Tip of the day: Don't type in the dark.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, CandyCole said:

Admittedly not that often, but I do sometimes deliberately create a link as opposed to just copying an original item.

This happens in cases where an outfit may include a separate necktie, garter, pair of socks etc.. Subsequently my neckties, legs-garters-straps, legs-socks-stockings sections will contain a link to the original. Whether it saves even one grain of sand's worth of space somewhere I have no idea, but the theory of doing so satisfies my mind.

Thanks. I must admit, though, I'm still being dense. Maybe it's just my habit of using outfits in some naive way (I'm a guy after all, so just being able to dress myself is an achievement!). I only very rarely change the contents of an outfit folder manually, instead just letting it Save when I think I've assembled a worthwhile variant or or Save Changes if I think it's a revision worthy of replacing the old outfit. 

Links in outfits are kind of a double-edged sword to me: I can't imagine having to update all outfits every time I adjust a component that appears in many outfits (a HUD containing a script I've edited, for example), but on the other hand it's a bit tricky figuring out which copies I dare modify without the changes screwing up a bunch of outfits (so I use "Find all links" and "Find original" a lot).

It's probably clear that I suspect I'm Doing It Wrong. One thing that I don't know how to avoid: When a mesh body gets an update, I can update all links to the old one, which is great—except now all the folders containing the new links sort to the top of my sort-by-date inventory, when I'm interested in the ones I created most recently; I really wish there were a way to update those links without giving a new timestamp to their containing folders, or a way to sort them by outfit creation date, instead of when they were last modified. (Maybe some TPVs can? or I'm just missing a trick?)

(Incidentally, to the actual topic of the thread: I suspect that copies can use slightly more storage somewhere than do links. I'd also guess, though, that copies use very little storage until there's an edit made to them. This is reasoning by analogy to Notecards, where you can send out as many copies as you want and they'll all have the same UUID, but if somebody edits their copy, it's a new Notecard instance with its own UUID.)

Edited August 7, 2022 by Qie Niangao

[Nickel Briand]

16 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Maintenant que vous demandez, je ne sais pas quand j'utiliserais des liens autres que dans les tenues. Peut-être des dossiers attachés ou détachés en tant qu'unité ?

J'ai besoin d'une copie lorsque je souhaite modifier une instance distincte de l'élément, distincte de l'original. Cela ne fonctionnera clairement pas avec un lien. Je ne pense pas vraiment que la copie et le lien pourraient être fonctionnellement interchangeables.

For versioning.

For example, create a dummy script in your avatar inventory and fill in a few lines.

Copy-paste as script (optional)

Make another copy-paste as a link Now edit your first dummy script and fill in the other lines. save it

Double-click on your copy: you do not have the reported changes

Double-click on the link: you have the changes reported

So inside a folder you might have a set of scripts pointing to a production version for example; and work on a new version on other versions of items with the same name (in my case, editing copies of your original script; even if you make a copy of a copy of a copy, you will know what the original stable version is of your script)

 

Nevertheless , outside outfits , it s limited : it s a pity we can t drop some links inside the inventory of an object . Of course not to drop  the links themselves but the objects/notes/scropts.anim/ sounds pointed by these links

Edited August 8, 2022 by Nickel Briand

[LittleMe Jewell]

I will use links for things if I separate out the pieces of complete outfits.  Sometimes the pieces really only work together, but sometimes they can work with other things.

For example I have gotten some complete outfits that included dress, stockings, and shoes.  The stockings and shoes could easily be worn with other items.  In those cases, the dress goes into its proper dress folder (based on length and style) and inside that folder will be a link to the stockings (in the applicable stockings folder) and shoes (inside the applicable shoes folder).

[Lucia Nightfire]

Links are obviously better than copies.

If you have 10 copies, you can attach each, changing a different color/texture/alpha for each copy, detach and each individual copy has to maintaint that change.

With 10 links all pointing to 1 copy, only that 1 copy gets updated/maintained each detach.

The data stored for everything about that asset uses far more memory than a link.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Lucia Nightfire

[sandi Mexicola]

42 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

f you have 10 copies, you can attach each, changing a different color/texture/alpha for each copy, detach and each individual copy has to maintaint that change.

With 10 links all pointing to 1 copy, only that 1 copy gets updated/maintained each detach.

The data stored for everything about that asset uses far more memory than a link.

Ah, that is a good point!  👍

[CandyCole]

17 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Links in outfits are kind of a double-edged sword to me: I can't imagine having to update all outfits every time I adjust a component that appears in many outfits (a HUD containing a script I've edited, for example), but on the other hand it's a bit tricky figuring out which copies I dare modify without the changes screwing up a bunch of outfits (so I use "Find all links" and "Find original" a lot).

I am a Firestorm user so I can only comment regarding that viewer.

'Replace Links' is an extremely useful tool. There was a time many years ago when I was aware of the function but for the life of me could not figure out how to use it because (in my simple mind) it didn't seem intuitive. One day (years ago now) I stumbled across how to do it and it has become an absolute godsend as I create way too many outfits.

I use it precisely for the reason you stated above, updating an AO used in every outfit. Or, if I've acquired new eyes and I want every saved outfit to be updated, or a new mesh body or head version etc..

Briefly, what had always foxed me about this procedure was that you right-click on the item you wish the link to be changed - select Replace Links. Then the Replace Inventory Links window pops up containing the name of the OLD item. The NEW is empty and waiting for you to select it. The NEW item must be DRAGGED into the Replace Inventory Links -NEW section. Then click Start. Depending on how many occurrences of it exist you may wish to go and put the kettle on. 

When I update a newly scripted AO (which exists commonly across all Outfits as my walking/running/sitting AO - I use Firestorm's AO in addition for stands) I locate it and next to it have already created another folder called 'OLD' (in the same folder as the AO). In a sandbox I drag the current AO to the ground and before anything else I also move that current AO into the OLD inventory folder next to it. Then I update the grounded AO and click 'Take' and re-appears where the original one was. If I hadn't moved the original AO into the OLD folder there would be two sitting there with exactly the same name (assuming the AO is copyable). This avoids the rigmarole of guessing which is which. Then I perform the Replace Links using the original version from within the OLD folder with the new one which has taken its place.

Some of these processes are straight-forward and easy to do, just less easy to describe. I hope I didn't put you all to sleep or teach you how to suck eggs.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, CandyCole said:

'Replace Links' is an extremely useful tool

Yes, absolutely. There was a time when I was using the old Linden viewer (before it incorporated that feature) and updated a mesh body by going through and manually replacing links in every body with the older version, so I was greatly relieved when I found "Replace Links" in Catznip and Firestorm the next time I needed to update versions.

As I griped above, though, that does result in all the updated Outfit folders rising to the top of sort-by-date order, presumably in whatever order the "Replace Links" operation got around to doing it. This may be less of a problem for those who don't completely rely on chronological sorting and inventory search. Indeed, nothing could be more alien to me than Lil's "dress folder"+"stockings folder"+"shoes folder" when the most order I impose on my Inventory is shoveling everything into annual subfolders when the sprawl gets too scary at any one level.

What I meant about using "Find all links" and "Find original" is exemplified by copies I save of HUD-driven fatpack items, or really anything I customize for a specific outfit. If I have a shoe that can be multiple colors, say, I'll set a color and use it in an outfit. Now, the next time I want to use that shoe in a different color, before I alter the original, I need to find out if any outfits are already using it, depending on it being the current color. "Find all links" reveals the existing outfit link so I know to make a new copy.

That raises a problem I frequently encounter: Repeat the fatpack/customization process a few times and suddenly I've got a bunch of copies, some of which have outfit links. I want an orange one now, do I make a new copy or do I already have an orange copy I can wear in a new outfit? If it's no-mod, it's hard to annotate the copy with its color: can't change its name, and it seems crazy to add a whole subfolder just to name the color. If there's a solution to this, I don't know about it.

 

[CandyCole]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

That raises a problem I frequently encounter: Repeat the fatpack/customization process a few times and suddenly I've got a bunch of copies, some of which have outfit links

I understand and agree. I commonly employ the Find Original search as I want the one the outfit links to.

With a fatpack item where it's likely that over time different variations of the same item will be created from the HUD options I'll create a new folder with a copy of the original in each folder, then rename the folder accordingly. Such as shoes; white-tan-silver, onyx-black-gold, depending on HUD options available. Some clothing item folders can end up having many inner folders containing numerous and various combinations. Naturally outfit links will point at the suitable different item for the outfit.

Being able to RENAME items even if they are no modify, or the sort where you can mod but not rename, would be really nice to avoid having numerous folders containing single same-named items. Such is SLife. I recall this subject being raised a few months ago within another topic.

I really like the concept of outfits. A click to remove unwanted items and add everything required for a different look is very convenient. I even have different copies of the Maitreya body in flat, medium and high versions to cover the variations so I don't need the HUD active at all times.

[Nickel Briand]

4 hours ago, CandyCole said:

Being able to RENAME items even if they are no modify, or the sort where you can mod but not rename, would be really nice to avoid having numerous folders containing single same-named items. Such is SLife. I recall this subject being raised a few months ago within another topic.

In addition , the lack of abilities to rename directly objects no-modify is amplified by the uability to rename a link to this object .

If in a view if intellectuel properties , some people can try to defend the interdiction to rename the object , i can t undesrtand why the feature to rename links is absent in viewers  , although the links have been created by the user and not by the creator

It could be simpler , for instance  the case of objects with a different "state" . For instance , imagine you have an object with an applier on it . 

So you have Object1 with applier1

You make a copy of Object1 . As you can t rename this object . It s named too "Object1" . and you assign it by hud an another applier applier2

You create one link  to the first instance of Object1 with applier1  and one another link to the second instance of Object1 with applier2

If the name of links could be renamed , you could have a clearer view of what is used with which state

I don t see why this feature about links don t exist :  there is no danger against intellectual property rights

 

In addition europe and asia have several dozens  of language . Imposing them the use of english in their inventory is absurd and even could be seen as a light discrimination . With links where the names could be renamed , the user could watch his/her inventory in his/her native language 

 

Anyway it show that several features could be developped for links to improve the facilities in second life 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Nickel Briand

[Qie Niangao]

There better not be IP protection of inventory names for no-mod content. Try dropping multiple copies of a no-mod asset into the contents of an object: they get renamed. (They're not usefully renamed, but renamed nonetheless.)

I'm not sure that the Lab makes the IP excuse, though, do they? In the case of links, I'll bet there's simply no storage allocated to naming the link, and that instead any display of a link's name is by reference to that original asset to which it links. As I speculated above, copies too may be pretty sparsely populated until they get modified, but that doesn't really explain why renaming them shouldn't be permitted inasmuch as it happens automatically inside object contents.

[Quistess Alpha]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:17 AM, Qie Niangao said:

can't imagine having to update all outfits every time I adjust a component that appears in many outfits (a HUD containing a script I've edited, for example

in many TPVs (I dunno if it's in the main viewer that I can't really use) there's a "replace all links" function: right click on a thing that's in a lot of outfits, and then 'replace all links' and you cna select another object to get used in its place. useful for updating all your outfits with a new version of a thing.

Also, that reminds me of another interesting facet of links. if an object has links to it, you get warned when deleting the thing, so you're less likely to break your outfits by accidentally deleting your meshbody, or something similar.

[MoiraKathleen]

Just now, Quistess Alpha said:

in many TPVs (I dunno if it's in the main viewer that I can't really use) there's a "replace all links" function: right click on a thing that's in a lot of outfits, and then 'replace all links' and you cna select another object to get used in its place. useful for updating all your outfits with a new version of a thing.

The "replace links" function is available in the LL viewer. 

[Qie Niangao]

33 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

in many TPVs (I dunno if it's in the main viewer that I can't really use) there's a "replace all links" function: right click on a thing that's in a lot of outfits, and then 'replace all links' and you cna select another object to get used in its place. useful for updating all your outfits with a new version of a thing.

Right, but I was actually praising the virtue of links inherently getting the changes when the very item to which they point is modified, and contrasting that to the less virtuous complexity of links that may or may not exist, requiring some "Find all links" investigation before modifying the originals.

44 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Also, that reminds me of another interesting facet of links. if an object has links to it, you get warned when deleting the thing, so you're less likely to break your outfits by accidentally deleting your meshbody, or something similar.

Now that you mention it, I'm suddenly wondering if there should be a warning before modifying an original that has links, analogous to the warning before deleting such an original. That's probably more annoying than useful, but I'm not sure.

And even if that's a good idea, it wouldn't handle the case where it's not a real modification but rather a scripted change, as in a HUD-driven fatpack choice. And if that's important, can we imagine a script being able to detect that the rezzed attachment it's changing has a link in the owner's inventory? What architecture could even support such a concept? and what else could we do with that support?

[Aishagain]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Now that you mention it, I'm suddenly wondering if there should be a warning before modifying an original that has links, analogous to the warning before deleting such an original. That's probably more annoying than useful, but I'm not sure.

Feature request JIRA time then, Qie?

[Qie Niangao]

6 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

Feature request JIRA time then, Qie?

If it's a good idea, sure,  but I haven't convinced myself. Maybe somebody else can. 😛 

[Jennifer Boyle]

Let me explain how I've used links outside outfits and why I asked the question.

My Clothing folder is organized by type of item, e.g., Dresses, Skirts, Tops, Pants, etc. There is also an "Outfits" folder within my Clothing folder for ensembles containing more than one item, e.g., top, skirt, and shoes. In such an instance, I have been putting links to the components in the appropriate folder for the item, e.g., a link to the top in the Tops folder. When I started doing it that way, I assumed tht links consumed less storage than copies, which would otherwise serve as well. If they don't, I may as well use copies.

[LittleMe Jewell]

24 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

Let me explain how I've used links outside outfits and why I asked the question.

My Clothing folder is organized by type of item, e.g., Dresses, Skirts, Tops, Pants, etc. There is also an "Outfits" folder within my Clothing folder for ensembles containing more than one item, e.g., top, skirt, and shoes. In such an instance, I have been putting links to the components in the appropriate folder for the item, e.g., a link to the top in the Tops folder. When I started doing it that way, I assumed tht links consumed less storage than copies, which would otherwise serve as well. If they don't, I may as well use copies.

Links DO use less storage in LL's inventory/asset database.  As someone else mentioned, since each copy could have it's own attributes (color, texture, etc...), every copy is considered a unique item and is stored with all of that information.  Whereas a Link will simply be stored as a single pointer back to the original.

It does not make any difference in the storage of your actual inventory, since all of your inventory is pointers to true items in the asset database.

Edited August 8, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[Nickel Briand]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Now that you mention it, I'm suddenly wondering if there should be a warning before modifying an original that has links, analogous to the warning before deleting such an original. That's probably more annoying than useful, but I'm not sure.

There is no warning when you delete an original . 

1st step ; when you delete the original : the original is in the garbage inside your inventory : the existing links continue to address to the original ( who is inside the garbage )

2nd step ; when inside the garbage , your purge the original from the garbage ( so there is no way to get it back ) . In this case , all the links towards this original are deleted permanently too

 

  

5 hours ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Also, that reminds me of another interesting facet of links. if an object has links to it, you get warned when deleting the thing, so you're less likely to break your outfits by accidentally deleting your meshbody, or something similar.

As described above , there is no warning specific .  The warning of deleting an object is generic ( deleting an object who has some links , and deleting an object who hasno links have both the same message )

Edited August 9, 2022 by Nickel Briand

[Quistess Alpha]

press "OK" ->

Interestingly, after deleting the thing, the links point to the thing in the trash, and after purging the thing from the trash, the links seem to get deleted.