Forum Advice

[Seicher Rae]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I gotta say, too -- the increase in "scorn laughs" I've been getting recently has been doing amazing things for my utterly-useless-and-pointless-who-the-hell-cares reputation score!

I'm pretty sure, as well, that shutting me up is going to make me, in the long run, much less unpopular in some quarters! Maybe now people will be able to look beyond my politics and see me for the Incredibly Wonderful and Charming Woman that I really am!

Or, you know . . . not.

😊

I wasn't sure if the cantankerous cranks with the scorn laughs knew of that little tidbit, so I haven't said anything and have kind of smiled, because "same here" only you've been getting it more so than I, but everyone has been getting them. I can't remember if I wrote it or thought it, but basically, "Oh, puhleeeeease. Do you honestly think that is trolling? Honey, I've been trolled by people who defined the term, and you ain't it."   Then again, that kind of trolling would not be allowed under these rules and moderation, and frankly, "YAY!"

I'm pretty sure there's other reasons for your (un)popularity besides your politics... so I think you're safe at status quo. 

:::looks sweet and angelic:::

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I'm pretty sure there's other reasons for your (un)popularity besides your politics... so I think you're safe at status quo. 

:::looks sweet and angelic:::

Not a scorn laugh. Totally deserved, in fact.

How long have you been in Maddy's pay, anyway?

Edited August 9, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

I did take your post as tongue in cheek and started to respond in that manner but then my fingers took over and typed out the rest which was not really in answer to you anymore but just sharing where I am at about a fourth viable solution to what is happening here.

I understand and I totally sympathize with you and the others.. I think many felt blindsided by the changes..

I was expecting something to come down..There was just too much fighting going on every single day in here..

A thread gets locked and before the day is out another would take it's place and wouldn't take long before there was people going at it again.

When every day ends up looking like a Sunday thread it's just a matter of time..

As fast as things change out of world and in, Nothing surprises me anymore.

I think when people go into those types of discussions that have never ended well here and keep repeating the same mannerisms that have never worked in the passed.. It's just asking for the hammer.

Progress comes through change, not spinning wheels in the same spot.

So maybe since there was no change in the approach, we ended up with change put on us instead..

I can point at them and ignore my other three fingers pointing back and me, but I know better.

 

 

 

[Seicher Rae]

So, based on Rowan's comments about how to make the Olivia Newton-John thread within rules, over the past few days I have wondered about the following (for various reasons that may or may not be obvious). And these are not just spurious topics, as in I'm kinda serious:

1) How does SL affect your mental health and/or your mental health affect your SL. For example, I don't get PTSD triggered inworld, but I have been in the forums. Also, on BDSM lifestyle sims where they have discussions, this topic comes up, SL, mental health, BDSM. There are inworld support groups for mental health. Etc.

2) How has inflation affected your SL. (It has mine.)

3) How does religion factor into your SL. (I've visited inworld schuls.) And/or spirituality? I sometimes do meditation in a group setting inworld.

4) How does politics factor into your SL? (I attended a voting party in Bay City as we watched Trump win office.)

Basically covering the topics of religion, money, politics and health...  You want discussion? As far as I can tell, in that context we could talk? I rarely start threads, and other than the cat thread, there's historically a good reason why I don't. I stink at it.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Seicher Rae
still leaving out words

[Istelathis]

2 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I rarely start threads, and other than the cat thread, there's historically a good reason why I don't. I stink at it.

I thought they were all good,  and would have probably been well received by many people.  

[Prokofy Neva]

The solution to the chronically broken group chat in inworld groups is Discord. Now that such a more or less elegant solution exists, it's pointless to keep badgering the Lindens about broken group chat. Chatting -- when it works -- only leads to inworld group mods banning some people they don't like, which causes the spawning of *more* groups which is a strain on LL's system. So the solution is Discord (and perhaps someone will make another external discussion forums in addition to SLuniverse/OneVerse) but basically -- Discord, because you can roll your own.

The solution to the chronically nerfed SL forums is also Discord. I made a Discord called "Mainlands" but running a Discord server is a chore, and when you are new, unless you buy your way into the additional features, or evidently get "boosted" as membership increases, it's not so useful so I expect this will remain tiny. Bryce Sun has also created a Mainland Discord which will likely be much more active.

I don't think these forums are a place for any kind of serious discussion, SL or RL related. Twitter is. Twitter remains impervious to the kind of nerfing that LL forums have suffered, and is also impervious to the kind of spurious ARs that are generated here but which occasionally get traction here when they shouldn't. Since Twitter is free and easy, even if limited in character input, and is fairly generous about "adult" content (important since the Flickr closure to free SL accounts with adult content) as well as sharp political commentary, Twitter is my go-to place (@prokofy) and you could make it yours. With the right combination of follows and blocks, it can be useful.

Jeska Linden used to tell people quarreling on the forums to "take it inworld". And Lindens still indicate that you can "go inworld," although the capacity for debates inworld are limited both by the General and Mature factors and the same kind of specious ARing and added capacity for griefing. Even so, I am re-starting my old Sutherland Dam discussions Fridays at 6:00 pm SLT to discuss land and economy. Join the group inworld if you like but the chatting will be room chat.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

11 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

So, based on Rowan's comments about how to make the Olivia Newton-John thread within rules, over the past few days I have wondered about the following (for various reasons that may or may not be obvious). And these are not just spurious topics, as in I'm kinda serious:

1) How does SL affect your mental health and/or your mental health affect your SL. For example, I don't get PTSD triggered inworld, but I have been in the forums. Also, on BDSM lifestyle sims where they have discussions, this topic comes up, SL, mental health, BDSM. There are inworld support groups for mental health. Etc.

2) How has inflation affected your SL. (It has mine.)

3) How does religion factor into your SL. (I've visited inworld schuls.) And/or spirituality? I sometimes do meditation in a group setting inworld.

4) How does politics factor into your SL? (I attended a voting party in Bay City as we watched Trump win office.)

Basically covering the topics of religion, money, politics and health...  You want discussion? As far as I can tell, in that context we could talk? I rarely start threads, and other than the cat thread, there's historically a good reason why I don't. I stink at it.

I think this will always feel contrived and lead to even more anguished moderating decisions and removal of content and it's not worth it. Go inworld or outside of the forums to sites external to SL for a more rewarding experiencing.

[Seicher Rae]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think this will always feel contrived and lead to even more anguished moderating decisions and removal of content and it's not worth it. Go inworld or outside of the forums to sites external to SL for a more rewarding experiencing.

Oh it is as contrived as heck! And yup, would increase moderation needs, but... also, well... perhaps unintended consequences on their part? As (perhaps) is the deadening of the GDF by the minute.

[Seicher Rae]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Jeska Linden used to tell people quarreling on the forums to "take it inworld". And Lindens still indicate that you can "go inworld," although the capacity for debates inworld are limited both by the General and Mature factors and the same kind of specious ARing and added capacity for griefing. Even so, I am re-starting my old Sutherland Dam discussions Fridays at 6:00 pm SLT to discuss land and economy. Join the group inworld if you like but the chatting will be room chat.

 

 

@Coffee Pancake in some recent thread somewhere, had an excellent discussion of why "take it inworld" just doesn't work. There are so many reasons! One, I don't think Coffee mentioned, is that you can't always fire up inworld. Forums you can do on your phone, catching a few goof-off moments at work. The forum chat allows for delays in international time zones. Logistically forum discussions are much more viable than inworld.

I frequent inworld discussions, in various types of sims. They aren't the same, and they are generally only an hour and so not everyone gets a chance to speak. Etc.

ETA: I think someone may have (or may not have, who knows?) misinterpreted what I meant by "can't always fire up inworld." I didn't mean "firy" chat, or an argument, I meant to literally start the SL program and go inworld.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Prokofy Neva]

10 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Oh it is as contrived as heck! And yup, would increase moderation needs, but... also, well... perhaps unintended consequences on their part? As (perhaps) is the deadening of the GDF by the minute.

Well, I personally rarely started threads unless they were related to inworld politics -- RL politics are not things to discuss with anonymous avatars in a setting less free than Twitter, where ironically, identities even of pseudonymous people are more persistent in my view. I don't want to sit here and think up "Totally Approved Thread for KittyCats" and "What Are You Listening to On Your Land in SL?" or "Transgender Issues As Related to My LIttle Mall in SL Which is Empty".  So I'm happy to leave you to it.

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, Seicher Rae said:

@Coffee Pancake in some recent thread somewhere, had an excellent discussion of why "take it inworld" just doesn't work. There are so many reasons! One, I don't think Coffee mentioned, is that you can't always fire up inworld. Forums you can do on your phone, catching a few goof-off moments at work. The forum chat allows for delays in international time zones. Logistically forum discussions are much more viable than inworld.

I frequent inworld discussions, in various types of sims. They aren't the same, and they are generally only an hour and so not everyone gets a chance to speak. Etc.

Not being able top "fire up" is a good thing, because then you don't "fire off' nonsense that you might find just a bit harder to say to a person to their "face" in the form of an SL avatar, and on land from which they can instantly ban you, without waiting for mods. 

An hour is plenty; I used to make some half an hour. If people follow the techlibs rule of "speak N times" where "N" is a function of time of the meeting divided by number of participants, it can work but I generally found it worked fine. And the best thing is, it generated a more coherent transcript to post and most people favoured posting it.

[Seicher Rae]

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Not being able top "fire up" is a good thing, because then you don't "fire off' nonsense that you might find just a bit harder to say to a person to their "face" in the form of an SL avatar, and on land from which they can instantly ban you, without waiting for mods. 

An hour is plenty; I used to make some half an hour. If people follow the techlibs rule of "speak N times" where "N" is a function of time of the meeting divided by number of participants, it can work but I generally found it worked fine. And the best thing is, it generated a more coherent transcript to post and most people favoured posting it.

Prob is then only those well versed in a topic will "talk" and leave no chance for those who might be a little slower in thinking and or typing and like to research a little before expressing themselves. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Arielle Popstar
added typing

[Tommy Linden]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:36 PM, Rowan Amore said:

Thank you for checking into that for us.   I'm going to assume (correct me if I'm wrong)  tasteful nudes as opposed to outright pornographic images is what Governance is referring to as no one wants it turned into a Flickr alternative.

Hey there! Now that I have returned from my vacation, I wanted to pop in and provide an answer to this question. You are correct in that we do encourage everyone to keep the images tasteful in the adult section. I see in fact that you recently posted an image there and that is a great example of what is to be considered tasteful. We understand that some people may wish to share their intimate moments that they had with others, but some things are better kept to themselves, or between those involved in the moment.

I will say though, much like with any other type of moderation we do on the forums, if someone posts something that is determined to be inappropriate, we would let you know, no ones at risk of being out right punished for an honest mistake, or lack of knowing that they shouldn't. We have always taken an educate first, action later (if its needed) approach to the moderation here on the forums.

[Seicher Rae]

I think even my mediocre laptop may allow a tasteful nude shot of my tiny plaid bunny avatar...

[Ceka Cianci]

6 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I think even my mediocre laptop may allow a tasteful nude shot of my tiny plaid bunny avatar...

 

 

ETA: I am kidding too.. I look forward to seeing peoples images

Edited August 9, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Prokofy Neva]

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Prob is then only those well versed in a topic will "talk" and leave no chance for those who might be a little slower in thinking and or typing and like to research a little before expressing themselves. 

I found when I used to run inworld discussions much more in the past that everyone talked as much as they liked, except for a very few who didn't want to be in a transcript. But people love reading transcripts and most didn't care about making them and wanted them to be made. Some people type outside of SL and paste whole paragraphs, and some put a few lines, but an hour is plenty of time for a meeting of 25-30 people to have plenty of opportunity to speak. 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I understand and I totally sympathize with you and the others.. I think many felt blindsided by the changes..

I was expecting something to come down..There was just too much fighting going on every single day in here..

A thread gets locked and before the day is out another would take it's place and wouldn't take long before there was people going at it again.

When every day ends up looking like a Sunday thread it's just a matter of time..

As fast as things change out of world and in, Nothing surprises me anymore.

I think when people go into those types of discussions that have never ended well here and keep repeating the same mannerisms that have never worked in the passed.. It's just asking for the hammer.

Progress comes through change, not spinning wheels in the same spot.

So maybe since there was no change in the approach, we ended up with change put on us instead..

I can point at them and ignore my other three fingers pointing back and me, but I know better.

 

It just surprises me somewhat in that though I didn't visit or post very much pre pandemic, this forum did strike me as somewhat edgy and aggressive and still was when I came. Various posters have mentioned that it has been much worse even in past so yes, what gives to try cleaning it up to this extent? The new owners cleaning up?

I look at this page https://community.secondlife.com/online/?filter=filter_loggedin and see that really there isn't that many following this thread anyway as most are reading something in other parts of the forum which must be more exciting and then begs the question of why the Lab and various critics posting in the thread, have an issue with some of us entertaining ourselves with a more political or other controversial sort of topic. For those of us who are not builders, creators or developers, this is our entertainment and if they would stop shutting threads down before we have had our say, they wouldn't get restarted elsewhere

Personally I think the lab should bear a lot of the responsibility for how the forums have turned out for the simple reason that they didn't penalize posters who were clearly not following the previous guidelines by allowing alt accounts and using them when their main one was banned. They didn't listen to suggestions about giving us more defined response choices, thereby not having to actually post disagreements. Plenty of times I would have just responded with a simple "Disagree" rather then left with "Confused" or "Laugh" response which didn't fit. To voice my disagreement then forced me to actually respond thereby creating even more arguments. Not allowing thread or even Forum section hiding. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

I get that people here have come to know a certain amount of comradery among forum members and it's become an important part of their daily life. 

You could use an outside forum resource such as https://www.createaforum.com/ 

I have used this forum software in the past and it's very easy to set up and moderate.  You could then invite anyone you wish and have all those discussions that are no longer allowed here.  Just a thought. To keep it interesting you could have  @Scylla Rhiadraand @Arielle Popstar co-moderate it.  

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I found when I used to run inworld discussions much more in the past that everyone talked as much as they liked, except for a very few who didn't want to be in a transcript. But people love reading transcripts and most didn't care about making them and wanted them to be made. Some people type outside of SL and paste whole paragraphs, and some put a few lines, but an hour is plenty of time for a meeting of 25-30 people to have plenty of opportunity to speak. 

I regularly run R/L meetings with 20 or so people using voice instead of typing and 3 minutes per is not a lot of time even then and does not leave time for responses to another's points. The norm then is that a few will not have time to contribute but then I do push for everyone doing so rather then leaving them to be spectators.

[Seicher Rae]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

I regularly run R/L meetings with 20 or so people using voice instead of typing and 3 minutes per is not a lot of time even then and does not leave time for responses to another's points. The norm then is that a few will not have time to contribute but then I do push for everyone doing so rather then leaving them to be spectators.

Not to mention it is next to impossible to have people from Europe, N. America, Australia, etc. all in the same group.

[Prokofy Neva]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I regularly run R/L meetings with 20 or so people using voice instead of typing and 3 minutes per is not a lot of time even then and does not leave time for responses to another's points. The norm then is that a few will not have time to contribute but then I do push for everyone doing so rather then leaving them to be spectators.

The advantage to typing, even if you type slow, is that it does enable people to put something in chat *while* another person is speaking, so it saves time.

Not everyone wants to use Voice or it doesn't work. I don't mind using Voice. There is a built-in power discrepancy that occurs, for example, in Linden office hours, where the Lindens get to talk in Voice, but not everyone in the meeting wants to/is able to use Voice, and the dynamics always end up being: Linden Voice, resident type.

I find people stay on topic more in SL inworld meetings.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

15 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I get that people here have come to know a certain amount of comradery among forum members and it's become an important part of their daily life. 

You could use an outside forum resource such as https://www.createaforum.com/ 

I have used this forum software in the past and it's very easy to set up and moderate.  You could then invite anyone you wish and have all those discussions that are no longer allowed here.  Just a thought. To keep it interesting you could have  @Scylla Rhiadraand @Arielle Popstar co-moderate it.  

Well, I can only speak for myself, obviously -- but I actually have no shortage of places to discuss politics, either in-world or in RL. I am a participant in a few feminists boards (you want bloodbaths? Don't slip in the pools on your way in!), and I talk a lot about this stuff professionally. In-world, I run or co-run two largish feminist groups, and a fairly large left wing activist group: I also handle the Twitter account of the latter.

I am not really here because I want to talk politics here. I've not done an actual calculation, but I doubt that more than 25%, and probably significantly less, of my posts here are in any way political. Not only do I post in places like the Peeves thread, and about SL generally, but I'm also very active in the picture threads and the Creation forum.

I talk about politics here mostly when, for some reason or another, it comes up in conversation.

And that's one reason why this new rule change isn't likely to see me abandoning the forums -- although there's certainly a likelihood of my posting less in GD if the place becomes as dull as I think it might.

[Ceka Cianci]

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It just surprises me somewhat in that though I didn't visit or post very much pre pandemic, this forum did strike me as somewhat edgy and aggressive and still was when I came. Various posters have mentioned that it has been much worse even in past so yes, what gives to try cleaning it up to this extent? The new owners cleaning up?

I look at this page https://community.secondlife.com/online/?filter=filter_loggedin and see that really there isn't that many following this thread anyway as most are reading something in other parts of the forum which must be more exciting and then begs the question of why the Lab and various critics posting in the thread, have an issue with some of us entertaining ourselves with a more political or other controversial sort of topic. For those of us who are not builders, creators or developers, this is our entertainment and if they would stop shutting threads down before we have had our say, they wouldn't get restarted elsewhere

Personally I think the lab should bear a lot of the responsibility for how the forums have turned out for the simple reason that they didn't penalize posters who were clearly not following the previous guidelines by allowing alt accounts and using them when their main one was banned. They didn't listen to suggestions about giving us more defined response choices, thereby not having to actually post disagreements. Plenty of times I would have just responded with a simple "Disagree" rather then left with "Confused" or "Laugh" response which didn't fit. To voice my disagreement then forced me to actually respond thereby creating even more arguments. Not allowing thread or even Forum section hiding. 

Well, It really doesn't matter how we got here, you can bet it was a team effort.. I know I gave my fair share over the years that probably lead to more than one change or another and sure over time I helped in the shake and bake with this one..

I'm pretty confident that  when they shut the forums down for 10 days, that I was a big contributor in that team of players that had them hitting the eject button.. There were no forums at all for  that whole time..

Bad times happen, we adjust and go for a good bit, then after awhile bad times come again..

No sense pondering on then and who to blame, if we're in here then we're all in it together..

I mean did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour? No and we won't give up now.. Lets light this keg! Whos with me!! *runs out of the room in a war chant*

 

......... Sorry, I got all excited there for a minute........

I'm goin in world.. see ya all later..

[Seicher Rae]

4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

 

No sense pondering on then and who to blame...

I mean did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?

I, for one, think pondering on who to blame is quite fun...

and

just cracked up at the bolded bit up there ↑