Discrimination rules to be added to TOS?

[Cate Foulsbane]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If you owned a beach in SL and this avatar was roaming around among other "adult" avatars, would you take action?

My partner and I own two parcels devoted to sailing activities...both are open to the public. I can't be in both places 24/7 but visit regularly to check for debris, etc. If I see an avie looking like the one mentioned/shown, I ban. It is my judgement that the clothing is not appropriate, it's my place, I'm the boss, I can do what I want. Same goes for avies that show up with a slave in chains or leashed...out, gone, presto. I don't advocate LL banning everything I don't like, but I do think I have a right to keep my own places free from things that are disturbing to me. My partner agrees.

[Seicher Rae]

1 minute ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

My partner and I own two parcels devoted to sailing activities...both are open to the public. I can't be in both places 24/7 but visit regularly to check for debris, etc. If I see an avie looking like the one mentioned/shown, I ban. It is my judgement that the clothing is not appropriate, it's my place, I'm the boss, I can do what I want. Same goes for avies that show up with a slave in chains or leashed...out, gone, presto. I don't advocate LL banning everything I don't like, but I do think I have a right to keep my own places free from things that are disturbing to me. My partner agrees.

I agree with everything you said, basically your sim, your rules. Law of the land.

However, just a question. I sometimes wear cuffs and am sometimes leashed. I do sometimes honestly, truly, forget that some things are on, if I'm exploring I don't always look at my avatar. Do you ever just send an IM and ask for them to get inline with your dress code? I know I would appreciate that rather than being banned poof! Same with a child avatar? Tell them "banned unless you xyz asap?" I know that opens you up for getting verbal BS in IM, which would be an automatic ban from me too. Just curious. This has never happened to me, and I'm a very responsible avatar around other people and their places. But my memory is horrid, and I could totally see me forgetting I had on "stuff."

[Cate Foulsbane]

3 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

Look at how often people post a Gladys Kravitz gif here in the forums. I suspect that most of us will avoid being branded as a nosy Gladys, even when we have every right to speak up or intervene.

Had to chuckle about that one. I haven't been around long enough to see those gifs but if one is ever used about me I will either laugh or ignore. I say what I feel and believe and don't worry much about what others will say...unless they make a good point, educate me, etc. 

 

[Cate Foulsbane]

10 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Do you ever just send an IM and ask for them to get inline with your dress code? I know I would appreciate that rather than being banned poof! Same with a child avatar? Tell them "banned unless you xyz asap?"

There have been a few times when I have done just that. The usual response is that the person I have IM'd leaves immediately...or starts giving me a load of cacadoodee which results in a ban. The ones I don't bother to IM are generally displaying behaviors that are inappropriate for the parcel's status as M or clearly intending to provoke if not grief. I don't wait around, I ban. As for banning child avies, never. Furries, dinosauers, robots, etc..never. 

 

[Cate Foulsbane]

8 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is what the thread is supposed to be about, so shouldn't be surprising. What was your take on the comment then?

I now confess that I have been blundering about without knowing what the Original Post (OP?) was about. Big mouth, not much info. But...if it's about banning child avies, furries, etc., from public places run by LL, I vote NO. If it's about a parcel or sim owner banning individuals based on appearance, I vote YES. It is my choice to not go to nightclubs that allow child avies, to not go to nightclubs that ban furries or other non-human adults, to not go to sex clubs, to not go to clubs that ban trans men or women, etc. In other words, have what you want on your own parcel...I can either visit or not visit, it's up to me. If you want to visit MY places, take off your leash, free your slave, don't have sex on my dock, and don't dress like a 5 yr old trying to attract a sugar daddy.

 

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Edited August 22, 2022 by Cate Foulsbane

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

I now confess that I have been blundering about without knowing what the Original Post (OP?) was about. Big mouth, not much info. But...if it's about banning child avies, furries, etc., from public places run by LL, I vote NO. If it's about a parcel or sim owner banning individuals based on appearance, I vote YES. It is my choice to not go to nightclubs that allow child avies, to not go to nightclubs that ban furries or other non-human adults, to not go to sex clubs, to not go to clubs that ban trans men or women, etc. In other words, have what you want on your own parcel...I can either visit or not visit, it's up to me. If you want to visit MY places, take off your leash, free your slave, don't have sex on my dock, and don't dress like a 5 yr old *****.

The OP argues that the ToS's strictures against discrimination should apply to even private sims, and that no one should have the right to ban someone if they are a furry or child avatar.

[Love Zhaoying]

Ok, I can't look away from this trainwreck long enough, to NOT post why I think it bothered me - and it wasn't the kid's stuff.

Subconsciously, it was the "cage" stuff!

One of the very scariest things I ever saw in Second Life - which I also had (non-SL) nightmares about  - was when I saw a small avatar thrashing? running? in a cage that was hung from a shop ceiling.

In the nightmare versions, it is not necessarily a sentient being, but perhaps implied as semi-sentient. Trying to escape its eternal torment.

Sweet dreams, y'all!

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Scylla Rhiadra]

52 minutes ago, Cate Foulsbane said:

My partner and I own two parcels devoted to sailing activities...both are open to the public. I can't be in both places 24/7 but visit regularly to check for debris, etc. If I see an avie looking like the one mentioned/shown, I ban. It is my judgement that the clothing is not appropriate, it's my place, I'm the boss, I can do what I want. Same goes for avies that show up with a slave in chains or leashed...out, gone, presto. I don't advocate LL banning everything I don't like, but I do think I have a right to keep my own places free from things that are disturbing to me. My partner agrees.

So, here's the issue.

You've said nothing here that I personally disagree with.

But what happens when a region or parcel owner decides that they want to ban anyone representing as a black or Asian person?

What about banning people who are gay or trans?

Personally, and it is personal, I'd want to see the "non discrimination" clause applied to RL constituencies and identities. I'd like to prevent people from banning avatars who are, for instance, Asian in appearance, or whose profile makes it clear they are gay. Discrimination against furries? Well, maybe I'm not quite so fussed about that -- but there are people who are. Same with kids: I think you should probably be able to ban child avatars.

What about male or female avatars? Should women in SL be permitted to have women-only spaces? Lesbian regions sometimes enforce this rule -- recognizing of course that you can only judge the avatar, and not the person behind the avatar.

What I'm trying to suggest in a round-about way is that it's "complicated." The "My sim, my rules" crowd would argue that you should be able to ban anyone for anything. And, in practice, that's mostly what LL permits.

But it kind of makes a joke of the language against discrimination in the ToS, doesn't it?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Ok I had to go back to around the time I first heard it.. It may not mean the same thing today, but  it started out as CApture Role Play.

I remember mazes being involved and wanted to try out the mazes.

Mah ebidence from the archives.

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/317/48/128981/1.html

Yep, this. CARP = Capture Role Play. It's a term that has somewhat fallen out of use in SL, actually, and it's not terribly prevalent IRL, but I still use it because it's easier than writing "r*pe role play." I probably shouldn't use it, as there are many different flavours of the latter.

[Innula Zenovka]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But what happens when a region or parcel owner decides that they want to ban anyone representing as a black or Asian person?

What about banning people who are gay or trans?

Personally, and it is personal, I'd want to see the "non discrimination" clause applied to RL constituencies and identities. I'd like to prevent people from banning avatars who are, for instance, Asian in appearance, or whose profile makes it clear they are gay.

That's covered, I would have thought, by the Community Standards:

Quote

Intolerance

Linden Lab encourages social interactions between users across multiple countries. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation is prohibited. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame users or groups are similarly prohibited.  

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Discrimination against furries? Well, maybe I'm not quite so fussed about that -- but there are people who are. Same with kids: I think you should probably be able to ban child avatars.

Not protected categories under the Community Standards.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Apparently I am horribly ignorant of TOS (readily admit it, I don't do much of anything, as far as I know, that would come close to a violation so... willfully ignorant I guess). So that said, I'm a tad confused. I think you are saying that AP in SL is the only thing singled out for banning as a representation of illegal activity. And if so, that is an interesting point I have never thought of. Of course, then you'd be getting into "illegal where?" issues, if you look at drug laws. They aren't even uniform in the USA for pot. (pauses a moment to be wistful at the thought of a  Mountie on his horse hand delivering my bag of gummies, like my bff asures me happens all the time).

AP is not the only thing banned, but it is one of the very few things named explicitly in the ToS. Maybe in fact the only thing explicitly named -- I'd have to look again.

And yes, this is about legality. LL's banning of AP is the direct result of extremely bad press from 2007 or so, and the very real threat that the platform would find itself banned in some (mostly European) jurisdictions.

I'd say more, but I'm waiting for the Mountie who's delivering my beef vindaloo, saffron rice, and onion bhaji, and samosas.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra
Ugh

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

That's covered, I would have thought, by the Community Standards

Is it, though, Innula? The language is certainly there. But in practice?

I'll focus on gender for the moment because it's the most egregious one: there is literally nothing one cannot simulate doing to a woman in SL. You can vivisect her and slow cook her, all the while sexually violating her. You can shoot her in the head or impale her while sodomizing her.

How does the language of the CS actually apply to such cases?

ETA: More generally, there ARE sims and clubs that ban people for the reasons supposedly proscribed in the CS. I've seen extreme racist representations and language handled by governance, but I have never heard of a sim being compelled to accept a certain kind of customer they didn't want.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yep, this. CARP = Capture Role Play. It's a term that has somewhat fallen out of use in SL, actually, and it's not terribly prevalent IRL, but I still use it because it's easier than writing "r*pe role play." I probably shouldn't use it, as there are many different flavours of the latter.

Thing is CARP was never about roleplaying or simulating R*pe, everyone entered a shared playspace, spent significant time messing about getting their avatar looking attractive and figuring out how combat systems worked. Encounters were pre gamed, flirted and teased, people had their favorites, and it rapidly got to the point that the play spaces dried up and everyone would hang out in the lobbies. People figured out it was just easier to get a room, or better yet, own a room and put actually good predictable things in it. In effect, creating the least surprising surprise sex adventure possible.

The CARP locations & groups became a starting point for people after a particular dynamic to their RP. The key words and themes have changed, but the people haven't.

Fantasy always dies on a hill of practical reality, people are lazy, it's a lot of work, truly random encounters can be fun but the novelty wears off real fast once mediocrity comes calling. So the themes and surprises change and have to keep changing, but not too quickly as no-one is actually after that anyway.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Thing is CARP was never about roleplaying or simulating R*pe, everyone entered a shared playspace, spent significant time messing about getting their avatar looking attractive and figuring out how combat systems worked. Encounters were pre gamed, flirted and teased, people had their favorites, and it rapidly got to the point that the play spaces dried up and everyone would hang out in the lobbies. People figured out it was just easier to get a room, or better yet, own a room and put actually good predictable things in it. In effect, creating the least surprising surprise sex adventure possible.

The CARP locations & groups became a starting point for people after a particular dynamic to their RP. The key words and themes have changed, but the people haven't.

Fantasy always dies on a hill of practical reality, people are lazy, it's a lot of work, truly random encounters can be fun but the novelty wears off real fast once mediocrity comes calling. So the themes and surprises change and have to keep changing, but not too quickly as no-one is actually after that anyway.

Interesting! And all the more reason for me to stop using the term as a catch-all.

[Innula Zenovka]

17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

How does the language of the CS actually apply to such cases?

While I'm not sure the distinction would work as a matter of legal interpretation, I think LL must be looking at the intent behind the particular RP.   

If the region is devoted to a form of consensual sexual RP, then that's OK, even though they enact clearly objectionable racist and sexist tropes.   

If, however, it's primarily intended to promote racism or sexism, then that's a different matter and the ban hammer is likely to fall.

That's my understanding, anyway, based solely on my observation of what LL seems to permit and not to permit.

[Seicher Rae]

29 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, here's the issue.

You've said nothing here that I personally disagree with.

But what happens when a region or parcel owner decides that they want to ban anyone representing as a black or Asian person?

What about banning people who are gay or trans?

Personally, and it is personal, I'd want to see the "non discrimination" clause applied to RL constituencies and identities. I'd like to prevent people from banning avatars who are, for instance, Asian in appearance, or whose profile makes it clear they are gay. Discrimination against furries? Well, maybe I'm not quite so fussed about that -- but there are people who are. Same with kids: I think you should probably be able to ban child avatars.

What about male or female avatars? Should women in SL be permitted to have women-only spaces? Lesbian regions sometimes enforce this rule -- recognizing of course that you can only judge the avatar, and not the person behind the avatar.

What I'm trying to suggest in a round-about way is that it's "complicated." The "My sim, my rules" crowd would argue that you should be able to ban anyone for anything. And, in practice, that's mostly what LL permits.

But it kind of makes a joke of the language against discrimination in the ToS, doesn't it?

Oy oy oy. My logical brain wants to make a blanket rule: Land owners can ban whatever they darn want in SL. (RL, again, doesn't play by the same rules, last I looked there are not sentient tiny plaid bunnies running around, unless your Mountie also delivered some really good acid.)

If you have a very monitored RP sim for medieval France, you should be able to require that only which would appear in that time period is allowed, and in proper period dress. So... no anthropomorphic animals. If you have a women's only club, etc... 

It isn't unusual to see in certain places, "humans only" and "no child avatars." ok. But if that sign were to read, "white humans only"??? My logical brain says, if you can say "female only" and "no children" and "nothing with a bento tail" then you should also be able to say "whites only." Ick ick ick.  I'm still leaning towards that (ick) and would never go to such a place. I'm sure the place would be packed. Sigh. 

Logic. Hurts. Brain.

[Seicher Rae]

35 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yep, this. CARP = Capture Role Play. It's a term that has somewhat fallen out of use in SL, actually, and it's not terribly prevalent IRL, but I still use it because it's easier than writing "r*pe role play." I probably shouldn't use it, as there are many different flavours of the latter.

It is possible the term you want for r*pe RP is CNC. Consensual Non Consent. That is done in RL and SL. That's the term I hear when people are talking about those sims.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Ceka Cianci]

38 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yep, this. CARP = Capture Role Play. It's a term that has somewhat fallen out of use in SL, actually, and it's not terribly prevalent IRL, but I still use it because it's easier than writing "r*pe role play." I probably shouldn't use it, as there are many different flavours of the latter.

The only reason I look these up is because, For the life of me I can't remember them or keep up with them.. lol

A big reason for that is, people just don't spell things out nowadays.. hehehe

Edited August 23, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Interesting! And all the more reason for me to stop using the term as a catch-all.

I think it works as a safe umbrella term for everything that spawned from it, however distasteful whatever the current trending fantasy keywords or themes are. Many might not even look like CARP at first glace, a great deal of effort has gone in to minimizing the effort needed to play.

 

2 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

It is possible the term you want for r*pe RP is CNC. Consensual Non Consent. That is done in RL and SL. That's the term I hear when people are talking about those sims.

CNC is a better term, but perhaps harder to explain. Some have an intentional pedantic difficulty understanding such statements.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Innula Zenovka said:

If the region is devoted to a form of consensual sexual RP, then that's OK, even though they enact clearly objectionable racist and sexist tropes.   

If, however, it's primarily intended to promote racism or sexism, then that's a different matter and the ban hammer is likely to fall.

Not sure I can think of any form of RP that is not "consensual," barring things like coercion that I'm pretty sure LL would not intervene in. So . . . in practice, any sexual RP. Also, arguably, racist RP, such as a "plantation" or slave market sim might offer.

Your second point is, I think, a good one. Except that we have had groups here that promote all sorts of racist, transphobic, misogynist, homophobic, etc., views. The National Front was here, and the Proud Boys. There is no end of groups proclaiming women are inferior, and so forth.

But in general, I think they are more likely to act on those. 

Except the misogynist ones. It's open season on women in SL.

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not sure I can think of any form of RP that is not "consensual," barring things like coercion that I'm pretty sure LL would not intervene in. So . . . in practice, any sexual RP. Also, arguably, racist RP, such as a "plantation" or slave market sim might offer.

Your second point is, I think, a good one. Except that we have had groups here that promote all sorts of racist, transphobic, misogynist, homophobic, etc., views. The National Front was here, and the Proud Boys. There is no end of groups proclaiming women are inferior, and so forth.

But in general, I think they are more likely to act on those. 

Except the misogynist ones. It's open season on women in SL.

 

 

Maybe I phrased my first point poorly.   I had in mind forms of RP where the point is for people to get their kicks by enacting particular sexualised roles, demeaning or degrading though these might be, rather than intentionally to demean or degrade particular groups and to encourage others so to do.   

[Seicher Rae]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not sure I can think of any form of RP that is not "consensual," barring things like coercion that I'm pretty sure LL would not intervene in. So . . . in practice, any sexual RP. Also, arguably, racist RP, such as a "plantation" or slave market sim might offer.

Actualllllllly, yes, it can be non-consensual, especially with RLV, and there are a lot of jerks out there. And people who have agreed to xyz in a RP have a jerk decide in the middle of it 'I'm also gonna do efg because you're so into it."  If you are someone who immerses, you have now have an emotional assault to deal with. The lines between RL and SL and RP and "real play" can get very blurry.

Of course if that happens, depending on the sim, you a) TP out of there or turn off SL and exit the RLV etc. and b) report the abuse to the sim owners. I assume there are places, though, where "whatever. you're here, you got what you got."

Edited August 23, 2022 by Seicher Rae
wow did I really mess up a sentence!

[Rowan Amore]

While CS say one thing, this is quite interesting from the ToS under Conduct by users...

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content, including any Content that is illegal, harassing or violates any person's rights.

You agree that you will not:

(v) Post, display, or transmit Content that is obscene, hateful, involves terrorism, or is racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; or

(vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent.

[Lindal Kidd]

22 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

CNC. Consensual Non Consent.

Oh, fudge. Now I am going to have to find another name for the Resident Geek's Computer Numerical Control thingie (well, it's not actually HIS yet, but it's on his wish list)

[Rolig Loon]

17 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

While CS say one thing, this is quite interesting from the ToS under Conduct by users...

6.1 You will not post or transmit prohibited Content, including any Content that is illegal, harassing or violates any person's rights.

You agree that you will not:

(v) Post, display, or transmit Content that is obscene, hateful, involves terrorism, or is racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; or

(vi) Post, display or transmit any Content or conduct or host any activity that is sexually explicit, or intensely violent.

And of course, that's in the forum guidelines too:

No Vulgarity, Profanity, and Sexually Explicit Content: Name calling, using profanity/expletives, or any language that is offensive, violent, pornographic, sexually explicit, or containing hate speech will not be tolerated on the Second Life Forums.