With Philip Rosendale returning to advise on SL I thought I might return. Should I? If so why?

[Polenth Yue]

Bad timing as you just missed Fantasy Faire, which runs tabletop gaming events (and a lot of other things, but that's the board game stuff). I've been to some skill gaming regions on hunts and have never seen someone playing those games. But that doesn't mean the same is true everywhere or that nothing is popular.

RFL has RelayStock at the weekend. Raglan Shire's Artwalk starts on Sunday. Sci Fi Con is a bigger event for RFL that starts on 18th May. If you have other interests, state them, and people can recommend events and communities. You need to see what's out there before you can come up with the plan that'll fix everything. Otherwise, you're the one falling into a nostalgia trap, by assuming that because stuff that was popular when you left is dead, everything is dead.

[Misty Rookstown]

On 5/12/2022 at 2:58 PM, Codex Alpha said:

Sure, I'm not taking a polarized position or anything, just pointing out that THAT section of SL could be marketed to gamers, RPG elements marketed to RPGers, Creative elements marketed to creators, Mr. and Mrs. Dressup elements marketed to that group - as all is possible in some form or another in SL.

These were all just as possible in Sansar(was lol) as well - as they are in Sinespace, and Altspace , etc. There is no reason to say it's a game or not a game, people still call it a game if they want or not - and will come and go based on that. "Game" also is used as a very wide word by many as well. But yeah, let's sit and debate it right - when the goal should be to get more users - from ALL entertainment types.

23,000 users in VRChat aren't worried about if it's a 'game' or not.. they're there because they want to be.

We've seen already what happens when VR platforms want to specialize in only ONE field, when they don't even have to. SL is fairly niche now, and we see that many want to keep it that way, or point out themselves that LL doesn't care to open it up wider.

Yes that is weird though.. I don't do any RPG on SL, but what would it matter if millions or billions were RPGing on SL? Wouldn't change anything for me, so not sure this attitude would exist "I don't want X activity growing here", etc.

All it would mean would be a large RPG community we could make, sell avatars, equipment and other stuff for them to use.. Bring it on!

I sell Dungeons and Dragons and other RPG books in my RL store. And even if you are looking at something limited like a World of War Craft MMORPG SL itself really has no role playing game elements at it's core. Some may engange in role playing ... but that doesn't make it a game. A real role playing game has elements like a quest/mission, has elements of leveling up and tracking progression etc. 

[Misty Rookstown]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:57 PM, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I noticed if anyone posts a video from SL on YouTube, that site refers SL as a game.

I noticed that some do that as well ... the ones I  see will also call it a horrible game in some of their videos ... well that's because it isn't a game by any real definition. They also come off as someone super super new to SL. 

[Misty Rookstown]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:10 PM, Polenth Yue said:

Bad timing as you just missed Fantasy Faire, which runs tabletop gaming events (and a lot of other things, but that's the board game stuff). I've been to some skill gaming regions on hunts and have never seen someone playing those games. But that doesn't mean the same is true everywhere or that nothing is popular.

RFL has RelayStock at the weekend. Raglan Shire's Artwalk starts on Sunday. Sci Fi Con is a bigger event for RFL that starts on 18th May. If you have other interests, state them, and people can recommend events and communities. You need to see what's out there before you can come up with the plan that'll fix everything. Otherwise, you're the one falling into a nostalgia trap, by assuming that because stuff that was popular when you left is dead, everything is dead.

Second Life would make a good tool for table top RPGs showing the space in three dimensions. In my game store in RL we have a TV table in the RPG room which uses maps including something like Dynamic Dungeon which uas animated maps. I have various tools on the computer in there and. If you have any links or references I would be interested in checking that out. 

I saw mesh made people with animated skeletons and such the other day using animations like avatars use. This could be a great possibility to use in RPGs in world. I would be interested in making some kind of RPG system in SL though I only have building skills and not so much in. I have a good number of ideas which could in theory unique RPG experiences on a big and large level. Utilizing a kind of instance system.  But to work right it would need a system that doesn't rely on collision for combat. There are too many ways to exploit that in SL. I would love to work on something like this if only I could find a good outside the box scripter and some good mesh builders and the like. I think there are enough tools to make something passable in SL rather than the gimpy stop motion creatures we seen int he past which tend to be laggy and wonky. 

So far I just set up an old school arcade area to get things going. LL was kind enough to let my other avatar Sorina Garrigus out of SL jail. Hopefully I will find a way to break even using ad boards but not sure yet. Just experimenting for now. If I find a way to make it work I will open some board game builds. Some of the stuff I have seems to no longer be available. Do stop by at least to check out the asteroids game Komikaze. It is one of the most impressive real time arcade games I ever seen in SL I was afraid it wouldnt work anymore. It seems to still work though ... it has some too many sound issues going off while playing but it worked just fine. 

[Codex Alpha]

13 hours ago, Misty Rookstown said:

I sell Dungeons and Dragons and other RPG books in my RL store. And even if you are looking at something limited like a World of War Craft MMORPG SL itself really has no role playing game elements at it's core. Some may engange in role playing ... but that doesn't make it a game. A real role playing game has elements like a quest/mission, has elements of leveling up and tracking progression etc. 

I guess my position wasn't clear enough on this issue.

No one cares what you, I or other people on SL want us (the gamer community) to refer to it as, and posting or repeating things like "But it's not a game" is pointless and a waste of time. We're going to call it a 'game' as that also encompasses being able 'play' at anything, competitive or not with goals or not.

Just like we can turn a Counterstrike server into a live music and nightclub with a custom map and a DJ piping in music back when "What You Hear" was available on soundcards, etc it doesn't really matter.

As I've said before, ignore gamers (As a developer who allegedly wants more users) at your peril.

Second Life is all things, and can be all, just like Fortnite can stream live events from musicians. It's just another place to be - so those will be either here or elsewhere. Looks like they're going to be elsewhere because simply put LL doesn't want them, nor do the existing community, etc. Without gamers though, which make up the overall largest majority of consumers in the digital space, any platform who refuses to (Or most likely - doesn't have the actual desire to ) welcome that community and give them the tools to build games and interactive worlds, it's just gonna be another empty niche platform.

Hmm, where and when did I and others say this before.. oh, another failed LL platform because they simply did everything possible to turn away the average gamer - who they consider trolls and griefers - yet those gamers spend billions a year on cosmetic items and other virtual assets. I'm seeing a pattern here after 10 years of participation

Edited May 17, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Love Zhaoying]

36 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

and posting or repeating things like "But it's not a game" is pointless and a waste of time.

But..isn't the entire SL experience pointless and a waste of time?

Aren't games pointless and a waste of time?

I'm really confused!

[Persephone Emerald]

54 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But..isn't the entire SL experience pointless and a waste of time?

Aren't games pointless and a waste of time?

I'm really confused!

My Mom always told me she didn't like to play games. She loved to go shopping though, and spent more money than she earned by charging for clothes, jewelry and household goods that she didn't really need. What is the bigger waste of time and resources then?, playing a game for a few hours or trying to fill an emotional void by shopping and buying stuff?

(I realize this post is OT, but then so is the argument about whether SL should be classified as a game or not.)

 

There are basically 2 ways to classify something as a game. Our continuing argument stems from people not recognizing that their way of classification doesn't always match someone else's way of classification, and likely never will.

1.  Game = a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

By this definition from the Oxford online dictionary, Second Life is not a game.

2. Game = an activity people do for fun with no financial or other obvious rewards.

 I made up this definition on the fly, which is what many people seem to do when classifying Second Life as a game.

 

When I was a kid I played with dolls, sometimes with a dollhouse or a toy RV.  I would make up stories about them to entertain myself. This was a form of play, but I don't think it would be classified as a game. Note the similarities to how many people use SL to play with avatars. We dress them up, give then houses, take them on adventures to virtual locations, and play with other people using their avatars in much the same way. We can create a context in which there is an element of competition with other people or with randomized outcomes, but this competition is not an inherent part of our ability to play with our dolls/ avatars.

Second Life is a platform for play, but is not in my opinion a game.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

1.  Game = a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

By this definition from the Oxford online dictionary, Second Life is not a game.

2. Game = an activity people do for fun with no financial or other obvious rewards.

 I made up this definition on the fly, which is what many people seem to do when classifying Second Life as a game.

By those definition, Jigsaw is terrible at games.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Codex Alpha]

23 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Second Life is a platform for play, but is not in my opinion a game.

LOL, who are you people?

This just goes to show that some people only read a portion of a comment and not all of it in context, and that's where problems start. I even provided examples of how an intended platform can be used as something else, and all of it is 'play' and 'playing' and people will still call it a game, and they don't care if someone gets triggered by that. So one could consider simply not repeating themselves.

On 5/17/2022 at 9:25 AM, Codex Alpha said:

No one cares what you, I or other people on SL want us (the gamer community) to refer to it as, and posting or repeating things like "But it's not a game" is pointless and a waste of time.

We're going to call it a 'game' as that also encompasses being able 'play' at anything, competitive or not with goals or not.

EDIT: I don't always want to seem that I am attacking a person personally when I respond, as that is not my intention.

In general, I respond to the ideas presented, and not the person underneath, and using 'one' or other non-personal appearing statements can be forgotten, tedious or come across as snobbish.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Codex Alpha
Meant to be impersonal, not to portray who I was responding to in a personal way

[Misty Rookstown]

56 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

1.  Game = a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

By this definition from the Oxford online dictionary, Second Life is not a game.

2. Game = an activity people do for fun with no financial or other obvious rewards.

 I made up this definition on the fly, which is what many people seem to do when classifying Second Life as a game.

Your second defintion you came up with doesn't work. It actually partly defines something as not being a game. There are a lot of people that do use SL for financial. In hobby board game circles some will call a game without strategy or the victory conditions don't matter not a game but an activity. The party game Telestrations is one example mostly because people disregard the points and just play it for laughs. Of course the more snooty board gamers will apply that idea to party games as a whole. 
The only reason people mistakenly call it a game is because without context it resembles a game that is in a 3d game. But without goals and quests of any kind provided by Linden Labs itself it simply is not a game. But there are games within that virtual world. To those that been in SL for a long time it would be as silly as calling Facebook and Twitter a game. 

[Misty Rookstown]

56 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

By those definition, Jigsaw is terrible at games.

 

 

Well Jigsaw cheats at games basically. I am really surprised that someone hasn't bought the licensing rights to produce home escape room games based on those movies. 

[Persephone Emerald]

1 minute ago, Misty Rookstown said:

Your second defintion you came up with doesn't work. 

That's my point. I don' think there is a true definition of what a game is that would fit for describing Second Life as such. 

Maybe someone here can come up with one, but just saying it's like a game in some ways or that some other platform refers to it as a game, is not actually giving a definition of the word "game" that also describes Second Life. 

[Misty Rookstown]

9 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

That's my point. I don' think there is a true definition of what a game is that would fit for describing Second Life as such. 

Maybe someone here can come up with one, but just saying it's like a game in some ways or that some other platform refers to it as a game, is not actually giving a definition of the word "game" that also describes Second Life. 

Well there isn't a description that fits the definition for the word game ... because it isn't one. It's pretty simple. Take a slot machine in a casino for example. It is a game of chance where you pull the handle you risk financial stakes in order to possibly win more money. But what is it if you take the money away. It would no longer be a game. It would be a device which you watch reels spin and hear sounds and lights from it. I don't come at this from a video game perspective but also for owning a physical board game store for roughly a decade. Calling it a virtual world is the best if not only description. But just like the actual world ... there are games in it. When people call it a game they are just in error for lack of an understanding on what else to call it. 

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Codex Alpha said:

I guess my position wasn't clear enough on this issue.

No one cares what you, I or other people on SL want us (the gamer community) to refer to it as, and posting or repeating things like "But it's not a game" is pointless and a waste of time. We're going to call it a 'game' as that also encompasses being able 'play' at anything, competitive or not with goals or not.

Just like we can turn a Counterstrike server into a live music and nightclub with a custom map and a DJ piping in music back when "What You Hear" was available on soundcards, etc it doesn't really matter.

As I've said before, ignore gamers (As a developer who allegedly wants more users) at your peril.

Second Life is all things, and can be all, just like Fortnite can stream live events from musicians. It's just another place to be - so those will be either here or elsewhere. Looks like they're going to be elsewhere because simply put LL doesn't want them, nor do the existing community, etc. Without gamers though, which make up the overall largest majority of consumers in the digital space, any platform who refuses to (Or most likely - doesn't have the actual desire to ) welcome that community and give them the tools to build games and interactive worlds, it's just gonna be another empty niche platform.

Hmm, where and when did I and others say this before.. oh, another failed LL platform because they simply did everything possible to turn away the average gamer - who they consider trolls and griefers - yet those gamers spend billions a year on cosmetic items and other virtual assets. I'm seeing a pattern here after 10 years of participation

You can call SL a game if you like. I can say it's technically not a game if I like. We can agree to disagree on semantics. Not recognizing that we're disagreeing on semantics means that any discourse we have is a waste of time though, because neither of us will be able to convince the other that they're wrong.

If you want to refer to Second Life as a game for the purposes of marketing it to the public, that's a use of the word for market purposes rather than descriptive ones. Just state that this is your purpose. Taco Bell can call what they put in their tacos "beef" even if it's less than half beef muscle tissue. An avocado dip can have no avocados in it. Subway can put enough sugar and filler in their bread dough so it can't be sold as bread in the EU. I'd rather we'd understand among ourselves as consumers that what we're eating isn't actually all food, nor is everything marketed as a "game" actually a game.

p.s.

Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they've been emotionally "triggered".

Edited May 17, 2022 by Persephone Emerald
to add p.s.

[Codex Alpha]

It's not about you and me, it's about wasting your time repeating yourself about it. It's not going to change.

Even today "You still playing Second Life? I don't like that game". I don't even bother a minute to argue whether it's a game or not.

All I care about is that they're not here due to issues they experience in SL as a non-creator such as lag and other issues. 19 of the original 20 I knew that were here are gone. They all call it a game. So who cares.

But I know you will anyway, so go ahead. How boring.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Adeon Writer]

Year 15, Week 2, Day 2: They're still arguing over if Second Life is a game or not.

[Codex Alpha]

21 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

Year 15, Week 2, Day 2: They're still arguing over if Second Life is a game or not.

It's not a game apparently, and they need to make sure we all know it

Meanwhile;

Edited May 17, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Jaylinbridges]

SL is an Optional  Game.  Does that satisfy everyone now?

 

[Coffee Pancake]

SL isn't a game in the same way anything directed by michael bay isn't a movie, but it is still entertainment.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

SL is an Optional  Game.  Does that satisfy everyone now?

 

And SL has "Games" within it you can play like Greedy Greedy and Cards Against Humanity.

[Silent Mistwalker]

[Arielle Popstar]

S/L is a game because when I first came, I had to run around competing with other players to grab L$ from money trees so I could eventually level up and buy better clothes. That in turn eventually gave me access to a higher class of society in terms of climbing the social ladder, renting and clubbing. 12+ years later it is still a competition for the best body/head, outfits, houses and toys or to at least maintain a certain status quo. Just as in real it is often called the Game of Life, this is the game of a second life. The prizes might be different but at the end of the day, it is still a game.

[Jaylinbridges]

A blast from the past (2007), highly edited...

If Second Life isn't a game, what is it?

The mainstream press has struggled with how to characterize Second Life. The term “3-D online virtual world” doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily as the term “game.” And it’s a whole lot harder to get in a headline. But what is it, really?...

Second Life is a 3-D online virtual world where avatars do the kind of stuff real people do in real life: Buy stuff. Sell stuff. Gamble. Listen to music. Buy property. Flirt. Play games. Watch movies. Have sex.

But is it a game?

Linden Lab, the company that created the platform that is Second Life, is emphatic that their creation is not a game.  “There is no manufactured conflict, no set objective,” says spokesperson Catherine Smith. “It’s an entirely open-ended experience.”

...

As the technology improves — performance issues and frequent maintenance outages are a common grouse among Second Life residents — more people will be using these virtual worlds for all kinds of reasons: Education, collaboration, research and — of course — entertainment. As that happens, what to call Second Life will be a moot point.

No matter what you call it — a game, not a game, waste of time — Second Life is not a passing fad. Universities and serious research organizations are using the simulated environment to perform inexpensive experiments. Some believe the future of work will be modeled after Second Life, with avatars from far-flung locales meeting up in a virtual world to make real-world decisions. Lofty plans, big ideas.

March 11, 2007, 3:23 PM PDT

By Kristin Kalning

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna17538999

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Jaylinbridges

[Nalates Urriah]

I suppose it depends on what one thinks (defines) is a game and then how they use SL.

The dictionary definition of a GAME is what the world goes by. SL does not fit the definition of a game. So technically SL can't be called a game. But, in the general parlance of practical language, SL is a game. So the debate is never about whether SL is a game, it is an argument of opinions about what the word means.

SL was originally designed to be a rapid game development platform. The idea of games within SL was the base idea. We see lots of games within SL.

Inline with that consider: Is Second Life a Game?

[Drayke Newall]

I would have thought the name would have shown it to be a game to every other person on earth other than some people in these forums that seem to think otherwise.

You are roleplaying your Second Life.

You create your avatar as you always wanted to look like or roleplay another life form. You buy land to build a house, you build that house or pay someone else to build it for you. You pay rent, you try to find ways to earn a living in your Second Life to buy things your second life avatar needs, you meet people, you go to shopping events/stores, pretend to dance at clubs or relax at your house listening to music or watching something on your TV in your house in your roleplayed digital Second Life.

You build things, make decisions for your avatar, you control every aspect of your avatar in its virtual world.

Sounds like a game to me...

Edited May 18, 2022 by Drayke Newall