performance I think we should, collectively, be somewhat embarassed.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Gavin Hird said:

The moving of creator tools outside of SL. Sure, all the old creator tools are still there, but unless you use them for anything but very basic build elements, you are basically laughed out of the place. In the Marketplace any such creation would be doa.

"If mesh hadn't been introduced it wouldn't be more popular than prims" isn't exactly a winning argument.

The reason that mesh items are more popular than their prim equivalents is that they're more efficient in terms of land impact, which equates to more stuff rezzed for less monthly tier.  The rise of mesh (and subsequent fall of prims) is purely the result of consumer demand.  The argument that mesh somehow sucked the joy out of creating things using prims only works if your motivation is to be a merchant rather than a creator.

With the use of materials you can still create decent quality content in-world using nothing but prims and if you combine those with a well-made modular mesh building kit and some tileable trim sheets you can create things that rival the majority of mesh items, you just have to sacrifice additional LI in some areas.

The introduction of mesh made it harder to become a merchant without using external software, the drop in creativity is because consumer demand is for prefabs which suggests that the majority of residents don't care about creativity, they just want pretty houses they can rez and decorate with all their pretty furniture and virtual bric-a-brac.

 

[Gavin Hird]

57 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

"If mesh hadn't been introduced it wouldn't be more popular than prims" isn't exactly a winning argument

 

Which is not what I said.

I specifically mentioned the collective effort of building where everyone could participate because all the build tools were inside SL.  There was a long period of 10 years where this was the driving force of the participants. This has been replaced by snotty consumers who complain about everything not being cheap enough, or good enough or me, me, me.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

48 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said:

Which is not what I said.

I specifically mentioned the collective effort of building where everyone could participate because all the build tools were inside SL.  There was a long period of 10 years where this was the driving force of the participants. This has been replaced by snotty consumers who complain about everything not being cheap enough, or good enough or me, me, me.

You listed "The moving of creator tools outside of SL" as one of the reasons for a lack of enthusiasm when it comes to creating content for SL.  Since creation of sounds, textures, and animations have always relied on external software it seemed safe to assume that you were referring to sculpted prims and/or mesh replacing traditional prim builds.

As I pointed out, if utilized correctly mesh can still be a very useful tool for creativity within SL, however in order for that to happen a lot of creators would need to educate themselves on the concepts of creating modular environments and, even more unlikely, residents/customers would need to learn a little about the principles of level design and the responsible use of assets and resources.  If more residents wanted to be creative and build things for themselves in-world then consumer demand for such modular kits would be probably be higher than the demand for prefabs.

Incidentally this is also what makes lag the eternally insoluble conundrum of Second Life, as a platform its appeal is that it allows you the freedom of unfettered creativity, the ability to fill a small space with an incredibly wide range of content with very little apparent consequence, which in turn means your pc has to struggle with hundreds of unique assets when rendering every frame.

Even if both creators and residents started utilizing mesh and textures in a more responsible and resource friendly manner when creating environments it wouldn't matter because each region would collectively still be filled with hundreds of unique items of furniture and decoration from a myriad of different creators.  Second Life is, by its very nature, doomed to be a laggy patchwork of random creativity.

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Fluffy Sharkfin

[Gavin Hird]

It is actually fantastic the renderer does as good as it does with all the random content that is thrown at it. 👍

[Flea Yatsenko]

3 hours ago, Gavin Hird said:

Don't be fatuous.

Try and explain how easy it is to game studios that use months on end to create game props and meshes that both look good and have as little budget as possible both in mesh size and rendering time.   

 Game development and SL development are different. Lots of stuff is cheated in video games, even AAA games. Even playing a big game like Xenoblade 3 I see faces that don't line up in places letting you see through the ground, things that aren't textured right, UV seams in the wrong places where it's obvious there's a texture not lining up right.

Games are meant to be ran through most of the time with people not paying attention. I've seen games just mirror textures that had text on them so the text was completely backwards and inverted to the point it made zero sense (in an AAA game).

If you sell someone something like clothing or a skybox in SL, they are going to look at it for possibly hundreds of hours. If you make a product that's a landing spot for a popular sim, you'll have hundreds or thousands of people over the lifetime of that area staring at it. SL people don't move like they do in video games. You have to do your absolute best to make sure there's no obvious issues with mesh people will see. Not so much with games.

So game content creators can take a lot of shortcuts and pump stuff out quickly because most people will just run past it and never pay attention ever again. It becomes really obvious if you start playing non AAA Japanese games.

14 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

It's tough as well for users, if they can't run with decent performances and/or good rendering quality with ALM on. You are not in control of what people can afford as a computer to run SL... And I'm pretty sure that you'd rather see them buy your stuff instead of using that money to upgrade their PC... 😜

You must understand that the ”choice” they make by turning ALM off is not a true choice, but the result of a compromise; if the drawbacks for enabling ALM are just unacceptable (be it because of the PC power or because of a particular use case), I do not see why we should impose them.

 

I'd rather have people see things in ALM and in all their glory for the effort I put into stuff. If people are just looking at lifeless baked textures, they're probably going to just leave for a platform that looks better. I want to make SL look great and help people have fun building and make cool stuff. Straight up baked textures look really outdated, I understand why people need to do it. But I'm not running a charity, I'll put a lot of hours into a high end product.

I don't want to kick anyone out of SL because of their hardware. I'm just saying it's created a problem for users and content creators. Look at when mesh was introduced. Everyone jumped on it instantly, not only did it enable a ton of cool possibilities, but it got away from every custom mesh object (sculpty) having the same number of verts whether it was a huge object or tiny, which actually improved performance. I remember when building with sculpty, if you wanted to do something like make a large plane with the edges beveled down, you'd need tons of verts wasted on the big flat space so the texture wasn't completely stretched. I'm going on a tangent but my point is that when mesh was introduced it made SL run better (in theory), gave users a better experience and cooler in world stuff, and gave content creators a huge amount of possibilities.

The graphical changes they are doing are just things to keep SL from being completely outdated graphically, but it divides the user base and muddles things for content creators. Look at how things were when mesh was released. Now look at PBR and materials from a content creator perspective. It was obvious to get mesh products out ASAP when it released. PBR and ALM, you have to consider who is using what hardware and if it's even worth your time to build. PBR is amazing from a content creator standpoint, but realistically I probably won't even bother using it for a while after release, because the amount of people who will be able to run it at a good experience will be even lower than those that can run ALM with spec+normal maps.

Actually, from a business perspective, it makes more sense for SL to run great and look great on more computers than possible instead of being an elitist, because it means your market is much much larger. Would you rather make stuff that only looks good on $700+ graphics cards or would you rather make stuff that looks great on 7 year old laptops? Obviously the market for supporting older hardware is much, much greater. Which means much more money for content creators and much more happier users looking and nice stuff. Which is why I'm saying the graphics situation in SL is more of a huge conflict for content creators and users when it should be something that helps everyone. The content creators who realize this are also holding SL back from progressing. But it's another problem with the market in general that needs to be addressed. Throwing features at the renderer isn't going to make SL look amazing. Why are people going to build for PBR when it means an even smaller market than spec+normal materials? In theory SL need something that will make SL run better and look better at the same time, but of course that's always a lot easier said than done.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

42 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

In theory SL need something that will make SL run better and look better at the same time, but of course that's always a lot easier said than done.

As monumental as the first task may seem (i.e. "make SL run better") it pales in comparison to the second since what "looks better" is clearly highly subjective depending on each residents personal tastes and their reasons for being in SL.

[Henri Beauchamp]

Pictures and videos are better than just words, since most people (and me among them) will only believe what they can see.

Let's first deal with the anti-aliasing problems in deferred rendering mode (ALM), which is the main reason why I (and likely many other SLers) am not using ALM, most of the time (while my PC is plenty-powerful enough):

Here are three pictures, taken in Port Babbage, where you can see the masts and rigging of pretty ships disfigured by ALM:

• ALM + FXAA (LL's AA shader)
• ALM + SMAA (Alchemy Next's backported shader)
• Forward rendering (native 4xSSAA).

As you can see, only forward rendering is capable to render properly the thin edges that make up the masts rigging...

FXAA is also so blurry, that it is right out unacceptable (it blurs the details in the textures themselves), while SMAA only blurs the edges (which, sadly, also blurs a bit the edges inside textures with transparency, such as tree leafs in a foliage texture, for example). (*)

 

Now, here is a video that also demonstrates another extremely annoying artifact induced by anti-aliasing (both with FXAA and SMAA) in deferred rendering, and which appears when you move around; I call it ”edges wobbling”, and it is right out ugly, like you will see by watching this video (note: since it's hosted on my ISP's site and I have to respect a quota, it will likely be removed in a few weeks).

 

As long as LL will not come up with a solution for these annoyances (TAA, perhaps ?), I am afraid ALM will stay off 80% of the time for me (I only use it where it makes sense, i.e. where there actually are some interesting materials to see).

-----------

(*) Users with a high DPI screen (120 dpi and over) are of course less likely to see/notice the blur, but with a 92 dpi screen (such as for a standard Full HD 24” monitor), the blur is obvious (and unacceptable).

Edited November 8, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[NiranV Dean]

6 hours ago, Gavin Hird said:

Don't be fatuous.

Try and explain how easy it is to game studios that use months on end to create game props and meshes that both look good and have as little budget as possible both in mesh size and rendering time.   

I'm not. You said its hard making low poly models, i gave you a guide that shows its actually pretty easy.

I learned these optimisation "tricks" from a professional modeller, you may recognise his name: Krample (Kampffisken) aka Gordon (the maker of Orange Nova Avatars). He was streaming preparing his Kobold for a VRChat release, i tuned in and he showed off some easy tricks to quickly optimise models very effectively.

And yes, optimising for an actual game engine is more involved, i know that because as the pictures above show i'm also working in Unity (for VRChat) and i very much care about having a good performance ranking, the good performance ranking is quite limiting and requires a lot of optimising depending on the model. No more than 70k polys ever, no more than 8 faces (materials) total, no more than 8 meshes or 2 skinned meshes, practically no particles and god have mercy on you if you want to do something like physics or dynamic bones (flowing hair, moving tail etc). I've also optimised my model for the Quest version which imposes very strict limits for a good rating. Less than 10k polys, no more than a single mesh or skinned mesh, no more than a single face (material), no sounds, no more than 90 bones (SL's Bento skeleton would already fall through), no particles whatsoever, no shaders no nothing. If you compare this to Second Life where commonly avatar bodies have 100's of faces (possible materials) its a nightmare. But SL is much simpler in that regard, all you need to do in SL to achieve an optimised model is reduce polycount, reduce faces, reduce separate item count (keep the mesh as one single thing with 8 faces and make good use of them), offer LOD options (although for avatars this sadly doesn't matter really...) and make some intelligent use of textures (don't use 1024x1024 on fingernails, which also links back into making better use of the 8 available faces). That's really it. Achieving 40k polys, 1 single mesh with 8 faces and decent memory usage (~10-20MB VRAM usage) for an avatar is quite easy.

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Pictures and videos are better than just words, since most people (and me among them) will only believe what they can see.

Let's first deal with the anti-aliasing problems in deferred rendering mode (ALM), which is the main reason why I (and likely many other SLers) am not using ALM, most of the time (while my PC is plenty-powerful enough):

Here are three pictures, taken in Port Babbage, where you can see the masts and rigging of pretty ships disfigured by ALM:

• ALM + FXAA (LL's AA shader)
• ALM + SMAA (Alchemy Next's backported shader)
• Forward rendering (native 4xSSAA).

As you can see, only forward rendering is capable to render properly the thin edges that make up the masts rigging...

FXAA is also so blurry, that it is right out unacceptable (it blurs the details in the textures themselves), while SMAA only blurs the edges (which, sadly, also blurs a bit the edges inside textures with transparency, such as tree leafs in a foliage texture, for example). (*)

 

Now, here is a video that also demonstrates another extremely annoying artifact induced by anti-aliasing (both with FXAA and SMAA) in deferred rendering, and which appears when you move around; I call it ”edges wobbling”, and it is right out ugly, like you will see by watching this video (note: since it's hosted on my ISP's site and I have to respect a quota, it will likely be removed in a few weeks).

 

As long as LL will not come up with a solution for these annoyances (TAA, perhaps ?), I am afraid ALM will stay off 80% of the time for me (I only use it where it makes sense, i.e. where there actually are some interesting materials to see).

-----------

(*) Users with a high DPI screen (120 dpi and over) are of course less likely to see/notice the blur, but with a 92 dpi screen (such as for a standard Full HD 24” monitor), the blur is obvious (and unacceptable).

I know what you mean. I have a 40" TV right in front of me (1m). I can essentially count pixels but the texture blur does not phase me at all. It is absolutely minimal and by no means unacceptable for something that is essentially a free option. I don't expect FXAA to be the be-all-end-all. It's just a simple edge detection post process shader that doesn't even make use of depth, its not meant to be perfect, its not meant to deliver the best quality, it is meant to deliver some basic AA that eliminates the worst offenders of jagged edges at practically zero cost. Nothing more than that. Also didn't you show me that MSAA is available in deferred? (although i had to relog for it to take effect) Right now after the performance update i can't get MSAA to work anymore at all.

But if you want to go ahead and bring TAA to SL be me guest: https://de45xmedrsdbp.cloudfront.net/Resources/files/TemporalAA_small-59732822.pdf

Edited November 8, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Atomic Infinity]

I think there will always have to be tickboxes to turn the fanciness on and off, it is in the nature of SL being adaptable to the purposes of the residents.

If what you like to do is decoration of your virtual home in a beautifully rendered 1024 full of deliciously materialised homewares then sure, turn up all the bells and whistles, shade everything and make it look totally stunning. In a limited draw distance a lot of computers will handle that. It looks fantastic and a lot of people enjoy just that.

Similarly if you like to wander a detailed region-sized space on foot, taking in the scenery and chatting with your friends, you might like to have the shadows and such to enhance the feeling of the place. But the ability to have full on materials on absolutely everything visible will need more processing power (= RL $) and you probably won't notice the bulk of those bumps and shinies on the small stuff anyway.

If your SL involves multiple region travel, or racing at speed, or hurling yourself down an icy mountain, (or indeed combinations of those at the same time) your rendering requirements are very different. 

I imagine most of us like to do all these things and more, just in a different order. There is no 'one size fits all'.

Regardless of how much the average SL user can spend on hardware, there is no single 'correct' graphics setup for a virtual world as diverse as ours. It saddens me to see someone say they want the low graphics options removed because it does not fit their use of SL. This is an inclusive world, and my varied use of SL is just as valid as anyone else.

[NiranV Dean]

19 minutes ago, Atomic Infinity said:

Regardless of how much the average SL user can spend on hardware, there is no single 'correct' graphics setup for a virtual world as diverse as ours. It saddens me to see someone say they want the low graphics options removed because it does not fit their use of SL. This is an inclusive world, and my varied use of SL is just as valid as anyone else.

That's why there's options to change the quality of each subfeature of each rendering path. If deferred with shadows and ao is too much, you can always turn off shadows and ao, keep the slightly better look, materials support, infinite light support at a very slight performance cost. But this extreme inclusiveness has always been detrimental for SL's development as a platform and for each and every user not on the low end of the spectrum.

I can give you a content example: Baked AO and prim shadows. They are used for lower end hardware, predominantly for forward rendering but if you like me have deferred rendering and realtime shadows and AO enabled you will see them stack, creating really bad looking stuff. It looks nice for low end, but it looks absolute garbage (and is actually slower and more wasteful for deferred because not only do you render a shadow prim, which also casts a shadow, its just another texture needed to be loaded that is completely unnecessary). Why did we have to accept the downgrades all this time and no one gave a crap but now that we are finally moving forward after 10+ years everyone gets riled up. Why do we insist on supporting even the oldest and most outdated of things when all it does is hamber SL's development and content creators? Inclusiveness only goes so far. It's so incredibly hypocritic of the community to complain that SL doesn't make any progress but at the same time demand their outdated 2007 stuff to still function and look exactly the same 15 years down the line and then when SL finally decides to make progress the community is in uproar, every single time. The lack of SL's progress is a problem of our own making a problem that i have seen in no other community.

I find it incredibly sad that i had to take a beating for 10+ years now because of said "inclusiveness". Where is MY inclusiveness? Did i get anything the past 10 years? No, i was shunned upon, my stuff was denied, improvements (free ones at that) were denied, why? Because of low end users. I have as much sympathy for them as they did for me, now they get the shaft.

[animats]

Re anti-aliasing:

I tried that scene from Port Babbage with my own system. This uses Rend3/WGPU/Vulkan, and is deferred rendering.

With anti-aliasing set to 1: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932728788079493181/1039604027815637012/antialiasingtest.png This looks like the bad example from the LL AA viewer.

With anti-aliasing set to 4: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/932728788079493181/1039611301963509800/antialiasingtest4x.png This looks much better.

The ship's rigging, at anti-aliasing set to 4:

Now the ropes have no gaps.

It's not about forward vs. deferred rendering, it's just the anti-aliasing setting. It takes more GPU effort to do this, but not more CPU.

[Henri Beauchamp]

38 minutes ago, animats said:

It's not about forward vs. deferred rendering, it's just the anti-aliasing setting. It takes more GPU effort to do this, but not more CPU.

OpenGL and Vulkan do not do things exactly alike... I'm pretty sure it would be possible to achieve a better AA quality in deferred rendering with OpenGL, but the current shaders (be it FXAA or SMAA) just cannot do it...

[Gavin Hird]

5 hours ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

  In theory SL need something that will make SL run better and look better at the same time, but of course that's always a lot easier said than done.

Supporting arbitrary rigs would unleash a flood of creativity. I'd rather have that than PBR. 

[Flea Yatsenko]

4 hours ago, Atomic Infinity said:

I think there will always have to be tickboxes to turn the fanciness on and off, it is in the nature of SL being adaptable to the purposes of the residents.

If what you like to do is decoration of your virtual home in a beautifully rendered 1024 full of deliciously materialised homewares then sure, turn up all the bells and whistles, shade everything and make it look totally stunning. In a limited draw distance a lot of computers will handle that. It looks fantastic and a lot of people enjoy just that.

Similarly if you like to wander a detailed region-sized space on foot, taking in the scenery and chatting with your friends, you might like to have the shadows and such to enhance the feeling of the place. But the ability to have full on materials on absolutely everything visible will need more processing power (= RL $) and you probably won't notice the bulk of those bumps and shinies on the small stuff anyway.

If your SL involves multiple region travel, or racing at speed, or hurling yourself down an icy mountain, (or indeed combinations of those at the same time) your rendering requirements are very different. 

I imagine most of us like to do all these things and more, just in a different order. There is no 'one size fits all'.

Regardless of how much the average SL user can spend on hardware, there is no single 'correct' graphics setup for a virtual world as diverse as ours. It saddens me to see someone say they want the low graphics options removed because it does not fit their use of SL. This is an inclusive world, and my varied use of SL is just as valid as anyone else.

Heh, it's almost like the client should change graphical settings on the fly. Create a standard default preset, then custom presets for places like your home where you can crank the settings. When you TP to your home with the high settings, it turns on ALM, projected shadows, etc. TP to a new sim and it loads the defaults without ALM. Maybe if it's a really laggy place you set the preset to something really low. It takes so long to teleport to a new place, and it's all waiting on network stuff, seems like it's possible to do do something like this.

[Henri Beauchamp]

23 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said:

Heh, it's almost like the client should change graphical settings on the fly. Create a standard default preset, then custom presets for places like your home where you can crank the settings. When you TP to your home with the high settings, it turns on ALM, projected shadows, etc. TP to a new sim and it loads the defaults without ALM. Maybe if it's a really laggy place you set the preset to something really low. It takes so long to teleport to a new place, and it's all waiting on network stuff, seems like it's possible to do do something like this.

You could actually script that, using Lua, with the Cool VL Viewer... 😛

For example, I have a a small bit of Lua code that I can activate (via a Lua side bar button in the UI) to automatically adjust the draw distance (between 256 and 512m, by 32m step) to keep the fps rate between 60 and 120 fps: I use it while sailing/boating so to get the optimal draw distance and see as far as possible when along coasts or sailing across a channel (with few objects in the FOV), without getting a bad fps rate when sailing towards and approaching coasts close.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 hours ago, Gavin Hird said:

Supporting arbitrary rigs would unleash a flood of creativity. I'd rather have that than PBR. 

I tend to disagree and although I'd certainly like to see a more versatile and robust system for making rigged mesh/animesh (along with a re-examination of animesh land impact and an overhaul of the current animation system in general), I still think PBR is an equally important addition and will benefit a wider range of content and creators.

I suspect that part of the reason LL are considering taking such a bold step is that with the recent hype surrounding virtual worlds Second Life has on several occasions been brought up in comparison to similar platforms currently in development and, based on the majority of comments in articles and on social media from non-residents, one of the most common perceptions of SL is that it looks old and outdated.

If LL are hoping to garner further interest in SL as a platform and prove that it's still a viable competitor for all the new virtual worlds currently in development then it makes sense that taking steps to address the misconception that everything in SL looks like something from the late 90s/early 00s would be a priority for them.

[Gavin Hird]

15 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I suspect that part of the reason LL are considering taking such a bold step is that with the recent hype surrounding virtual worlds Second Life has on several occasions been brought up in comparison to similar platforms currently in development and, based on the majority of comments in articles and on social media from non-residents, one of the most common perceptions of SL is that it looks old and outdated.

I don't think that is the motivation at all. I believe the real motivation is to be able to run the viewer on Xbox. 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Quartz Mole

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

7 hours ago, Gavin Hird said:

I don't think that is the motivation at all. I believe the real motivation is to be able to run the viewer on Xbox. 

If that is the case then I'd recommend they stop playing around with PBR and any other features and concentrate all their efforts on figuring out how they're going to make SLs UI controller friendly, because it's been nearly two decades and it's still one of the most common complaints about the viewer among residents, even with a full keyboard and mouse, so imagine what the reaction of the average Xbox user will be when they first log in! 😅

Edited November 9, 2022 by Quartz Mole

[Quartz Mole]

The misfortunes of Meta/Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg, fascinating though they are,  are not, I think, on topic for this thread or these forums.  

 

[iceing Braveheart]

On 4/3/2022 at 5:03 PM, Suzanna Soyinka said:

With the low poly nature of collada mesh, and the low resolution assets SL is married to (2048x2048 is not a an HD resolution), the fact that my PC in 2022 gets the same 5 - 10 FPS on ultra with 256 draw distance in a sim that isn't EMPTY is literally embarrassing and really needs to be addressed if this platform ever wants to engage the modern user base that is out there, but avoids SL because it runs terribly and looks like a ten year old game even at its best.

I get 60-120 fps just change the default settings, example max particle count is the easiest way to lag out and crash lower it from the default 4096 to 768 or less, 768 was roughly high enough to load weather systems from someone's giant server in mainland not sure what 4096 is needed for? is it for avatars with effects or?

i also set flexiprims to lowest, trees to lowest, terrain to lowest,

shadows: sun and moon only no projectors, water reflections all avatars objects not everything

non imposter avatars 40

C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\viewer\user_settings

<key>RenderAvatarLODFactor</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Controls level of detail of avatars (multiplier for current screen area when calculated level of detail)</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>F32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

    <key>RenderAvatarLODFactor</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Controls level of detail of avatars (multiplier for current screen area when calculated level of detail)</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>F32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

    <key>ThrottleBandwidthKBPS</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Maximum allowable downstream bandwidth (kilo bits per second)</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>F32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

<key>WLSkyDetail</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Controls vertex detail on the WindLight sky.  Lower numbers will give better performance and uglier skies.</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>U32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

optional

    <key>RenderFarClip</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Distance of far clip plane from camera (meters)</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>F32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

 

the configuration i use only lowers fps a little with draw but then get to see everything everywhere in maximum detail

i took a picture with draw distance at 64 256 512 and 99999 because it is always good to have options.

 

[Rowan Amore]

Raising your draw distance when nothing is IN your draw distance is pretty irrelevant.  Just sayin'.

[Henri Beauchamp]

9 hours ago, iceing Braveheart said:

I get 60-120 fps just change the default settings

With what hardware ?...

9 hours ago, iceing Braveheart said:

example max particle count is the easiest way to lag out and crash lower it from the default 4096 to 768 or less

I always had them set at 8192... Never experienced particles-related crashes either, even during griefings.

Quote

768 was roughly high enough to load weather systems from someone's giant server in mainland not sure what 4096 is needed for? is it for avatars with effects or?

If your PC cannot render 4096 particles, then you have a problem... And particles are important, for chains, ropes, etc (with this clue you can tell what places I frequent 😄)...

Quote

i also set flexiprims to lowest, trees to lowest, terrain to lowest,

shadows: sun and moon only no projectors, water reflections all avatars objects not everything

non imposter avatars 40

OK, so here is what I get at the exact same place as yours, but with all graphics settings pushed to the max, including Classic Clouds on (something other viewers do not have), meaning even more (giant) particles, mesh boost factor to x3 (again a Cool VL Viewer exclusivity), no impostors, no limit on avatar complexity (and one other avatar in close FOV), all shadows, etc, and 512m draw distance:

46fps, i.e. over twice your figure, but since we do not know what is your hardware (mine is listed in the About box you can see in the screen shots)...

And with 256m draw distance:

118fps...

But like Rowan remarked, since there is almost no objects to see there, this is largely non-significative a benchmark !

Edited November 11, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[iceing Braveheart]

1 hour ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

With what hardware ?...

I always had them set at 8192... Never experienced particles-related crashes either, even during griefings.

If your PC cannot render 4096 particles, then you have a problem... And particles are important, for chains, ropes, etc (with this clue you can tell what places I frequent 😄)...

OK, so here is what I get at the exact same place as yours, but with all graphics settings pushed to the max, including Classic Clouds on (something other viewers do not have), meaning even more (giant) particles, mesh boost factor to x3 (again a Cool VL Viewer exclusivity), no impostors, no limit on avatar complexity (and one other avatar in close FOV), all shadows, etc, and 512m draw distance:

46fps, i.e. over twice your figure, but since we do not know what is your hardware (mine is listed in the About box you can see in the screen shots)...

And with 256m draw distance:

118fps...

But like Rowan remarked, since there is almost no objects to see there, this is largely non-significative a benchmark !

<key>RenderMaxPartCount</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Maximum number of particles to display on screen</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>S32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

 

[Henri Beauchamp]

38 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

key>RenderMaxPartCount</key>
        <map>
        <key>Comment</key>
            <string>Maximum number of particles to display on screen</string>
        <key>Type</key>
            <string>S32</string>
        <key>Value</key>
            <real>99999</real>

You know, using the debug settings floater to set huge numbers serves no purpose: the number of particles is limited (clamped) in the viewer code to 8192, because they must fit a single vertex buffer, which size is also limited...

Most other render settings are also clamped (if they were not, you'd get magnificent crashes): use the graphics settings sliders and spinners to set the parameters.

And 64m DD now ?

And still no info about your hardware...

Edited November 11, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp

[iceing Braveheart]

13 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

You know, using the debug settings floater to set huge numbers serves no purpose: the number of particles is limited (clamped) in the viewer code to 8192, because they must fit a single vertex buffer, which size is also limited...

And 64m DD now ?

And still no info about your hardware...

are you not able to view signature❔

https://valid.x86.fr/6via0v

Edited November 11, 2022 by iceing Braveheart