Suggestions for Encouraging Migration from Bellisseria to the Mainland

[Kathlen Onyx]

17 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I also have trouble finding that Operation Mainland passport every time I look even keeping everything related to it in one folder, but I still make use of it and have found some great places I had never heard of.

Just put it in your "favorites" folder. 

Other than that I didn't read the rest of your post. They are always so long and my attention span doesn't last so I just skimmed it and responded to this part.

[Prokofy Neva]

BTW I should point out that Operation Mainland has a kiosk you put on your land whose script collects the number of stamps received, and sends you an aggregate report each week. So you can add those up to see how much usage your stamp gets in OM's game.

The Bellisseria stamp system does not have any reporting by aggregate in this way. You have to log on and observe the chat that says "So-and-so got a stamp!". You'd have to capture and collect all those, and who has the time? Not me. It's "nice to know" that at that moment when I happened to get that message if I was at the house itself or logging in, I could see the stamps get some usage. But those messages don't aggregate and deliver once a week so they are worthless. I try to refresh to content and keep them coming. 

It's hard to believe that the reason for this failure to aggregate the data is about "privacy" when the Belli stamp tracks *names*. So I can tell when that certain member of the BBB is stalking me through all my sites, Belli and Mainland. *Waves*.

Meanwhile, OM's system does NOT tell you the names, but just the aggregate. And that is more useful. If you see 0 for many days running, change the gift and advertise it. Update the content, etc. 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/15/2022 at 8:05 PM, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

You've hit on a lot of the reasons people don't choose to live on mainland.  Not enough infrastructure to get around by car, boat, or train.  Banlines or aggressive orbs. Ugly builds by neighbors. The price of good parcels with access is out of reach for many.  There are a few good cooperative "neighborhood" rental areas, but again it's a rental, not owned or it's too expensive to own with no guarantee it will stay looking nice when the neighbor sells.

I owned a nice parcel on Clyde for years, but the rotating obnoxious builds from neighbors, the misuse of the +/- 40 terrain change, then packed-in tiny rentals, then a store, then a breeding farm, ugly parcel surrounds, and sex furniture all over the G rated region made me just give up.  No one worked with the trees and parklike setting I had and I was there for years waiting out the rotation of parcel owners.

Buying a parcel in a nice, themed area like Bay City would be awesome, but it's not in my price range for virtual land.

You could move from Clyde easily, it's a buyer's market.

I find way more orbs in Bellisseria than on the mainland these days. The Lindens had a golden opportunity to ban orbs from the ground and allow them only in skyboxes, as many Mainland and island landlords do, and they missed it. It's still not to late to make a community like that even in Belli, however.

[Feorie Frimon]

36 minutes ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

Meanwhile, poor Kira is looking back and forth between these different arguments ... I had *no* idea there was even a "them and us" sort of mentality between Belli and Mainland or this level of animosity - and I have two Belli homes and buy/sell a small amount of properties on Mainland (and used to rent on Campbell Coast before ownership changed). Oh, and was a staffer on a private island (multiple regions) back in the day. *I* certainly don't differentiate and don't understand why it would matter...

And can't help thinking, SL is a world, Belli and the Mainland continents are like countries... so why can't people work together and make a passport/stamps game for all? Maybe, like RL passports, different in looks between Belli and Mainland, but otherwise the same? Combine the best of both worlds rather than snarking at each other. Sorry, but that's what I'm seeing here, and I've been reading Every Single Post.

Also... on a different subject... Wintercove? Where is that? I have two Snowlands properties in a really nice little valley. Am I in Wintercove and don't even know it? - Feel free to PM me if you don't wanna hijack this thread.

Oh - just for the record, I'm seeing excellent arguments and comments on both sides of this virtual fence. Just sayin'. 

I am actually working on a FT passport update that will work on either kiosk for either system… so long as the kiosks for both remain modifiable.
Currently kiosks go out as MOD for both systems - I’m working on something people can drop in a BBB kiosk that will allow that kiosk to then give out FT stamps too. 
Unless the permissions on BBB kiosks change going out moving forward (suddenly become NO MOD), this fix to the FT game should close the door on any drama once and for all. Mainlanders can play the BBB game (kinda) and it will save the location that rezzer the kiosk an extra prim cause they won’t have to Rez the FT kiosk. 
 

And for Wintercove - check this link out: 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Feorie Frimon
Details on ‘fix’

[Kira Skydancer]

Thanks for the Winter Cove link.

Now that I look at it, I think that must be the big walled community right behind a parcel I briefly had, and sold in like three days?  I'll check it out and confirm though.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Kira Trafalgar
hit send too soon

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You could move from Clyde easily, it's a buyer's market.

I find way more orbs in Bellisseria than on the mainland these days. The Lindens had a golden opportunity to ban orbs from the ground and allow them only in skyboxes, as many Mainland and island landlords do, and they missed it. It's still not to late to make a community like that even in Belli, however.

It's been a couple years since I owned any Mainland.  It might be time to try again.  I don't like the idea of renting, but maybe it's time to give ownership another shot.  I sometimes miss the full creativity and mixed in with all the bad neighbors were a few gems.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

It's been a couple years since I owned any Mainland.  It might be time to try again.  I don't like the idea of renting, but maybe it's time to give ownership another shot.  I sometimes miss the full creativity and mixed in with all the bad neighbors were a few gems.

There are completely empty sims where you could buy a 1024 or 4096 and be alone on the sim, or perhaps with one no-show end user like yourself. That isn't guaranteed to last. But it's easy to find places without "ugly neighbours". You can start by looking at the Linden auctions available, but flying around is maybe a better option. Land is for sale for 0.2/m. It's a buyers' market.

[Prokofy Neva]

9 hours ago, Feorie Frimon said:

I am actually working on a FT passport update that will work on either kiosk for either system… so long as the kiosks for both remain modifiable.
Currently kiosks go out as MOD for both systems - I’m working on something people can drop in a BBB kiosk that will allow that kiosk to then give out FT stamps too. 
Unless the permissions on BBB kiosks change going out moving forward (suddenly become NO MOD), this fix to the FT game should close the door on any drama once and for all. Mainlanders can play the BBB game (kinda) and it will save the location that rezzer the kiosk an extra prim cause they won’t have to Rez the FT kiosk. 
 

And for Wintercove - check this link out: 

 

I think ultimately the Lindens will veto this for various reasons. I totally get why you are challenging them in this way, and it does call their bluff, but that's just it, they therefore won't take kindly to it.

And I think reform of the BBB, which the Lindens co-opted and should indeed reform, could work as follows:

1. Instead of applying for a passport, every single person who gets a home in Bellisseria should automatically get a passport in their content mailbox. It could be enabled not only for the stamp game, but for any activity the Lindens could come up with, say, a scavenger hunt. They could leave blank pages and also make additions available in the same mailbox. They could add a step to authenticate the passport if that was necessary, but I don't see that it is. When I take out a Mole kettle, I can recolour it if it is on mod. So a passport that I take and collect stamps on will be mine.

2. The Moles should take over all the sites that they put in the BBB stamp game and make a separate Mole/Linden locations visa add-on so that they are not doling out this largesse to one group and denying it of another.

3. The Embassies should be left alone as resident outposts,  and the Lindens/Moles should stop facilitating them in any way, even symbolically by having Abnor Mole hand out keys. If the Lindens need to recruit the homeless and the renters (not land owners) to Bellisseria, they have better, more successful ways of doing this. The Mainland doesn't need an outreach program; the Mainland was the prototype for Bellisseria and not visa versa. The Mainland doesn't need to "wait patiently" for the Moles to "prototype" their work in Bellisseria -- their sites in Bellisseria are filled with resident-made content, many of them Mainland-based businesses or businesses that are unrelated to the BBB or anything in Bellisseria's "community that existed long before there was any Bellisseria. The BBB needs to disencumber itself of the view that time starts with them -- it's clear from Yukiko's post here that they have no grasp of history of SL -- which especially in the early days is the history of the Mainland --  or if they do, they think it's unimportant. Likely the Lindens and Moles have contributed to this perception; we see the results.

4. Usually player-made governments are disliked. They arrogate to themselves the management of others and gaining the devs' ears and they are resented. So they should just manage themselves and make their own activities; after all, some of them already left one shattered Mainland community behind them which isn't the best advertisement.

They made themselves and their friends ambassadors and claim that if in the quick time span allowed for this, no one else applied, that's their problem. Yet the Lindens, who back them, never posted a recruitment ad on their splash page or blog, nor were applications really solicited from prominent Mainland influencers. (I personally want nothing to do with player governments or this particular group but others might wish to). Once again, if the Lindens want people to sign up for premiums, they need their own networked ad system in world with their own ads, not only on infohubs, and ideally have positions on it available for PG ads for short durations for purchase.

Given that the embassies, after their initial ball, don't appear to engage in any activities whatsoever, and their ambassadors go back to Bellisseria to Bellisseria-based parties, either the Lindens will have to step in and get them to be more active, or create a new application process with better criteria and more openness. Or let them die a natural death. When the Lindens created the gateway system for various venues to receive and help newbies, they had a list of criteria that had to be met -- staff on hand, content, etc. etc. Yet they don't appear to have any of this criteria for "Embassies" which are often surrounded by abandoned land or no-show properties.

I suspect this time next year, all of this will be different for all kinds of reasons so there's no point in speculating further. I do think delivering the passport HUD into the mailbox automatically is the first step to broadening this experience.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:19 PM, Marigold Devin said:

With the best intentions, people aren't going to take up mainland again any time soon. It's always been "Marmite", I've always found it an interesting place to live, and plenty of rental people are happy with their set up too, but the Bellissarians are unlikely to be swayed, and I can't say I blame them. Bellissaria continent has made me see Second Life - Linden Lab really - in a much more positive light. The new homes have been built with long-term residents' suggestions in mind. 

I think it is very likely - and I was just having this conversation a few minutes ago in world with someone - that Linden Lab might actually chop off bits of the mainland where entire regions are just abandoned land. 

Edited to add:

My head is a bit foggy, I am going off to eat and hopefully wake up a bit, but Bay City comes into my head. When Bay City was created, that became very desirable (and expensive). People love the structured and community-orientated vibe - I think it is still classed as mainland (foggy head foggy head, might amend later). 

 

 

When people who don't live and work on the mainland come up with this "delightful" idea of having the Lindens "chop it up" or "delete parts of it" (Desmond Shang was among the first with this idea years ago, so you aren't the first), it's important to think about how this actually works.

Because there are people on these sims. 

So let's just take one area where I "reclaimed" an abandoned sim and developed it, and a few others have done so here and there, but large parts of it are abandoned. I've coloured in black the areas I know are abandoned because I go there all the time -- and there is tons more but I don't have time to draw it out. See the problem? It's a patchwork quilt. You can't just neatly cut out one full abandoned sim and pull together the sims next to it. You have entire empty sims with or or two owners. So what's the plan, those people have to all huddle together on one sim that is all empty, accepting a one-for-one compensation from LL? (the precedent is telehub land compensation and Mature venues that had to move to Zindra). But can you see what an insane job that is? Many of those people never log on and won't answer their email made for SL. So what, eminent domain is it, just mow through and carve up the land?

While some sim near you that you see may seem to lend itself to some cut-and-patch job as you imagine, many continents simply won't. Rather than deleting entire regions or parts of regions and trying to sew it back together, it would be better to put the old Linden Homes -- also a patchwork nightmare -- on to the entirely empty sims, possibly spilling over to any parts of sims that lend themselves to it. And then figuring out how to clear the rest -- if at all.

It's so clear, the attitude Bellisserians have toward Mainland "Yuck, Mainland," as one highly prominent Belli fellow commented at one of the embassy openings. That's it in a nutshell. We totally get it. But we lived here and worked these sims for years, sometimes paying what seem like fantastic, Blake Sea prices for regular Mainland sims back in the day (because that was the Lindens' only offer then.)

Whenever these schemes are discussed, compensation is never discussed, but I personally would harken back to the telehub compensation of $7/meter and one-to-one moves from Mature to Adult, meter for meter, as for Zindra. But better yet, I wouldn't make up these grandiose plans to delete the Mainland. The logic would have to be applied to Bellisseria. After all, after they roll out a new area, and the Game of Home gals rush through and pick out the best lots with their friends, and use various techniques to grab them, then they leave their previous homes empty. The patches begin to appear in old Bellisserian areas. How is that green dot population on the very first Belli homes doing? The same phenomenon works there as any other place.

I do a spot check of 6 of my rental sims and find a total of 14 people at 6:45 am EST. I look at 6 sims where I have Bellisseria homes and I find 3 people. 

It's just not realistic to think of how you would carve out some sims gracefully, and the work involved might not justify the costs you might save with less sims. Of course, the Lindens could dump the Mainland completely and say "move to Bellisseria or an island, sorry" or they could make an entirely new Mainland and say "first come first serve, but fill up the sims or no new ones will be put in" or some other stunt like that. 

We can see what the Lindens *are* doing, whether they announce it or not. Rolling out way more Bellisseria sims than they currently have demand for -- and waiting until existing sims fill up with their randomized system before letting people move to a new one, as they did with the Mainland, where each new, fast, pretty auctioned sim would cause a stampede away from slower, blighted sims.

They are churning through abandoned land very fast and getting it sold on demand to residents or sold on the auction -- although some of it is being abandoned again. Still, they might argue they are ahead. Eventually they will be "done" doing it their way, which is not clipping out sims or forcing migration off nearly empty sims but simply selling more abandoned land. In a year or less, they might be done with this. Or not. By then it will be clear if SL itself is viable as a whole.

The Lindens really should explain themselves clearly on this. They know better than Tyche what the score is. They should announce: 25% of the Mainland was abandoned, but we've now brought that figure down to 18% and by 2023, we will have it at 1%. We have no plans/we have plans to delete the Mainland. We will move all old Linden homes first on demand one one-to-one basis, then by fiat, preserving a few old builds as meeting places. It should be Mainland haters and Bellisseria glitterati getting their ear and building up a drumbeat; they should just tell us as soon as possible what their plan is both for old Linden homes and existing Mainland sims.

 

 

 

[Marigold Devin]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

When people who don't live and work on the mainland come up with this "delightful" idea of having the Lindens "chop it up" or "delete parts of it" (Desmond Shang was among the first with this idea years ago, so you aren't the first), it's important to think about how this actually works.

Not my idea at all, what I actually said was:

 

With the best intentions, people aren't going to take up mainland again any time soon. It's always been "Marmite", I've always found it an interesting place to live, and plenty of rental people are happy with their set up too, but the Bellissarians are unlikely to be swayed, and I can't say I blame them. Bellissaria continent has made me see Second Life - Linden Lab really - in a much more positive light. The new homes have been built with long-term residents' suggestions in mind. 

I think it is very likely - and I was just having this conversation a few minutes ago in world with someone - that Linden Lab might actually chop off bits of the mainland where entire regions are just abandoned land. 

Because there are people on these sims. 

So let's just take one area where I "reclaimed" an abandoned sim and developed it, and a few others have done so here and there, but large parts of it are abandoned. I've coloured in black the areas I know are abandoned because I go there all the time -- and there is tons more but I don't have time to draw it out. See the problem? It's a patchwork quilt. You can't just neatly cut out one full abandoned sim and pull together the sims next to it. You have entire empty sims with or or two owners. So what's the plan, those people have to all huddle together on one sim that is all empty, accepting a one-for-one compensation from LL? (the precedent is telehub land compensation and Mature venues that had to move to Zindra). But can you see what an insane job that is? Many of those people never log on and won't answer their email made for SL. So what, eminent domain is it, just mow through and carve up the land?

While some sim near you that you see may seem to lend itself to some cut-and-patch job as you imagine, many continents simply won't. Rather than deleting entire regions or parts of regions and trying to sew it back together, it would be better to put the old Linden Homes -- also a patchwork nightmare -- on to the entirely empty sims, possibly spilling over to any parts of sims that lend themselves to it. And then figuring out how to clear the rest -- if at all.

It's so clear, the attitude Bellisserians have toward Mainland "Yuck, Mainland," as one highly prominent Belli fellow commented at one of the embassy openings. That's it in a nutshell. We totally get it. But we lived here and worked these sims for years, sometimes paying what seem like fantastic, Blake Sea prices for regular Mainland sims back in the day (because that was the Lindens' only offer then.)

Whenever these schemes are discussed, compensation is never discussed, but I personally would harken back to the telehub compensation of $7/meter and one-to-one moves from Mature to Adult, meter for meter, as for Zindra. But better yet, I wouldn't make up these grandiose plans to delete the Mainland. The logic would have to be applied to Bellisseria. After all, after they roll out a new area, and the Game of Home gals rush through and pick out the best lots with their friends, and use various techniques to grab them, then they leave their previous homes empty. The patches begin to appear in old Bellisserian areas. How is that green dot population on the very first Belli homes doing? The same phenomenon works there as any other place.

I do a spot check of 6 of my rental sims and find a total of 14 people at 6:45 am EST. I look at 6 sims where I have Bellisseria homes and I find 3 people. 

It's just not realistic to think of how you would carve out some sims gracefully, and the work involved might not justify the costs you might save with less sims. Of course, the Lindens could dump the Mainland completely and say "move to Bellisseria or an island, sorry" or they could make an entirely new Mainland and say "first come first serve, but fill up the sims or no new ones will be put in" or some other stunt like that. 

We can see what the Lindens *are* doing, whether they announce it or not. Rolling out way more Bellisseria sims than they currently have demand for -- and waiting until existing sims fill up with their randomized system before letting people move to a new one, as they did with the Mainland, where each new, fast, pretty auctioned sim would cause a stampede away from slower, blighted sims.

They are churning through abandoned land very fast and getting it sold on demand to residents or sold on the auction -- although some of it is being abandoned again. Still, they might argue they are ahead. Eventually they will be "done" doing it their way, which is not clipping out sims or forcing migration off nearly empty sims but simply selling more abandoned land. In a year or less, they might be done with this. Or not. By then it will be clear if SL itself is viable as a whole.

The Lindens really should explain themselves clearly on this. They know better than Tyche what the score is. They should announce: 25% of the Mainland was abandoned, but we've now brought that figure down to 18% and by 2023, we will have it at 1%. We have no plans/we have plans to delete the Mainland. We will move all old Linden homes first on demand one one-to-one basis, then by fiat, preserving a few old builds as meeting places. It should be Mainland haters and Bellisseria glitterati getting their ear and building up a drumbeat; they should just tell us as soon as possible what their plan is both for old Linden homes and existing Mainland sims.

The Lindens really don't have to explain themselves clearly on this or anything else. They're obviously working out what works for them - as a business - like any other business, and will succeed or fail, depending on the decisions they make and the market supply and demand.

What you think they should do, and what I think they might do will probably be very far removed from what Linden Lab will actually do. 

 

 

 

 

I had land at Glockler and Corless (nice lighthouse there), which I sold at a nice tidy profit. 

Ohhh are they bots at Bleacher?

Logs in to go take a look. 

(Edited to add disclaimer: When I said there was/is a nice lighthouse there, I did NOT say that I sold it at a nice tidy profit. Just in case anyone should not be clear about this.)

Edited January 26, 2022 by Marigold Devin

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:53 PM, Yukiko Yeshto said:

Each time I go exploring on Mainland, and that happens often, I find new places. I would say that it started about half a year or even earlier ago that I could notice very visibly how mainland is receiving some love again; private home owners as well as people who offer something for the public. I notice also an increase of people putting an effort into offering additional infrastructure (I just did today's "Drivers Of SL" grid drive and passed by the 8z road which is offered by a resident), and just the last few days I had quite many talks with various community owners, and landholders of public places, who almost all told me that they have actually been tremendously expanding during the last months. Of course, as it is part of SL, things can always change overnight, and sometimes, long-time communities fall apart for various (often enough sad RL) reasons. Then there might be a very noticeable recession happening while people try to figure out how to move on. Changes happen, and sometimes something is gone for good, but then also I observe community members doing their best to preserve and to continue even if that means they had to take a step back first to build up with smaller holdings.

I think that a lot of these things also have to do with personal perception. For me, it rather looks like the entire opposite. From my personal experiences, I would say that a lot seems to have to do with networking. Once you ran into a person who  has the right connections, it kinda becomes a "self-runner". I myself happened to end up in that position where I am hardly able anymore to catch up fast enough to explore all those awesome communities and projects all around Mainland. There are just too many.

Putting the option of living on a private estate a bit apart here and focusing on Bellisseria and Mainland, but in my opinion, both have similar audiences. For me, Bellisseria is an environment that allows people to experience community and living without the hassle of having to figure out how infrastructure or matching landscape could be implemented, or worrying about some of the downsides that may occur on mainland (such as ban lines). I would say that when LL says that the Linden Homes are "starter homes", one of the aims is to allow the residents there to put their focus on figuring out how living together can look like, and how a great neighbourship can be an awesome base for community-focused projects to be initiated. Whereas Mainland allows all that freedom to do "whatever" (within TOS, of course) right from the start but also comes with that big challenge of, for example, having to deal with neighbours who might appear to be rather community-hostile. However, it is their right to do so which is also one of the eligible perks of Mainland, but if you are a community-driven person, then - I agree - this can be very appalling if you have never experienced that it all can be handled in a different and positive manner as well, and might drive you to stay at Bellisseria, or move to a private estate. But let's also not forget that very interesting and even long-term communities and projects have their roots in that spirit of using this freedom that is possible at Mainland for the better of the whole SL community.

In summary, I would say both Mainlanders and Bellisserians can benefit from each other. I also know more people who have land holdings on both, Mainland and Bellisseria, and some even additionally at private estates, than people who have land at one spot solely. Obviously, there is a high interest in experiencing all options offered. Maybe, it doesn't always matter where you live but how you live. It would be a shame if all that good potential of all these communities would be wasted when at the end of the day, everyone actually just wants the same: the freedom of being able to choose whatever fits personal interests best, in an overall huge SL community that offers something for everyone.

Wishing everyone a splendid weekend, many good thoughts, and keep supporting all of SL community! 

I actually think none of the suggestions you make are good ones, although I know your heart is in the right place.

First, there is nothing about Bellisseria whatsoever that is "good for the Mainland," nor was it ever intended as such. The Lindens might have some patter about "starter homes" but the reality is, they are trying to lure their premium customers into this more manageable area so they look good and complain less -- then LL looks good and complains less. They are lavishing all their attention on Bellisseria and have not a thought in their heads or "roadmap" for the Mainland beyond rolling out Premium Plus -- which, whenever I hear it discussed, for example at a Linden office meeting, it is conceived in terms of making larger lots for Bellisseria or more home choices, not anything about Mainland renovation or perks although of course they can be applied there, too. We constantly get updates about new Bellisseria themes and features. We don't about the Mainland. End of story.

The Lindens have no ramp out of Bellisseria, their ostensible "starter home area" into the Mainland as you have rightly pointed out -- and that's deliberate. They don't like the Mainland, it's a headache for them, it's a White Elephant they don't know how to put to sleep. They have never fleshed out the Knowledge Base, to the point where they don't even really explain how group land works (this is why I put a tutorial about it into Memory Bazaar, the infohub in Ross). It's very hard to do and confusing, and no about of lessons on kiosks somewhere or classes can cut it. People learn by doing and ask on the forums. The Lindens could try to do more on this but they won't. Next.

In 2006, the Lindens completely shattered the economy by doing a number of things that were disastrous for the Mainland, chief of which was enabling private island owners to divide up islands into parcels they could "sell" -- although they still remained in the ownership of the estate owner (much like Governor Linden still remains the owner of any Mainland sim or parcel even when you buy it). This may have been a way of siphoning off the Mainland into other managers' hands, and challenging the waterfront monopolists like Anshe Chung. It didn't work, because these parcels were more expensive, with a fee to buy them which was quite high back then, and then tier which was higher than Mainland rent. This land glut, coupled with the Linden churning through auctions, did lead the LindEx to crash to a value of only 325 to the dollar (today it's around 240, which gives you an idea how awful these measures were). The Lindens then installed the Zindra continent, hoping they'd siphon off all the adult activity into a more manageable realm which would also be out of site of all the corporations and universities they were chasing to buy sims for RL activity that didn't involve sex on the beach.

Remember, when they first created the Mainland, with a shot from a gun, they would use canons to blow up terrain instead of terraforming, and they saw it mainly as just a big sandbox to mess around in and build things and knock them down. They were happy when the early residents did this. They let them jeer at newbies who came in who wanted little houses with picket fences, they made only a few zoned "suburbia" sims which they indicated their scorn of, by putting in dead palm trees, and they let griefers harass anyone who tried to make a coherent community and do things besides blowing up stuff in sandboxes.

Time passed, and they improved their behaviour, and frankly the Mainland looks better today than it has in a long time due to the work of residents -- not Lindens. And again, the Lindens have no ramp -- the ramp from Bellisseria leads only to Embassies which they want to use to pipe residents back into Bellisseria, not to better Mainland. I really think people need to get off this ahistorical and unfounded notion that Bellisseria is some prototype or test case which will be replicated "back" to the Mainland. It won't. It *is* the center of gravity now.

The experiences you had are anecdotal. Yes, they happen. I fly around to some 65 sims constantly and see a lot of others on the way. I see land for "sale" which is really a scheme to have rentals show up on the map. I find that an unconscionable practice and rarely do it myself -- what if it sells out from someone who paid the rental box and you're not online?! As for "land on another continent," if a rentals agency has an outpost in one continent that takes people to another, I don't see that as fraud, it's just an office that has teleport boards, it's common. As for "waterfront" or "sailing land," yes, I see that all over, about little puddles bound on all sides by neighbours with ban lines. But it's more of a phenomenon around Blake Sea; it's not so common on Sansara and other continents. 

What I see is tons of land for sale, and at reasonable prices, even on mainland. I know, because I just bought half a sim after I was forced to move my tenants out of another waterfront sim that was mangled by a Linden auction. I paid $7/m for waterfront and $2/m for hind land. There haven't been prices like that since 2004. All around me, for sale and on auctions, I see land even for $3/m which is good land. There is tons of abandoned land, even waterfront, that can be requested and if not got outright, then bid on the auction. It's not the morass you claim when you see enough of it. I realize you travel an awful lot, more than I do, but on *this* subject, I think you are letting a few edge cases loom larger and ruining the picture of what is not as bad as you say. As I sit here looking at the map of Heterocera, I see very nice waterfront at 6.8/m and 9.8/meter. What's stopping anyone from buying it and having way more prims and flexibility than on Bellisseria? The lots are not that big so it really is affordable. Once you bracket out "Blake Sea" you see a more reasonable picture.

As for venue creators "tremendously" expanding -- I know people who have done that, and others who expand and contract because the economy and the land business in general is at a low point. For some that's an opportunity to expand and grow. For others it's a signal that they have to be sure they will get that tier covered a year from now even if the land was cheap and the tenants are available or visitors leaving sufficient tips. Always you have to ask: how is this land getting paid for?

I've actually seen a number of highly visible and once successful communities FAIL, with people trying to recover by going into other, non-land related business, or picking up the pieces. Again, you are sufficiently vague here that it's not persuasive, whatever you think you saw. How many people did you speak to? How do they pay their tier? It is very hard to gather information in SL because people won't tell you the truth.

In short, the only thing I personally would expect from the Lindens -- expect, rather than wish -- is that they do no harm. "Above all, do no harm." Generally if they leave the Mainland alone, it will fend for itself.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

20 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

I had land at Glockler and Corless (nice lighthouse there), which I sold at a nice tidy profit. 

Ohhh are they bots at Bleacher?

Logs in to go take a look. 

(Edited to add disclaimer: When I said there was/is a nice lighthouse there, I did NOT say that I sold it at a nice tidy profit. Just in case anyone should not be clear about this.)

This is what you wrote, twice:

I think it is very likely - and I was just having this conversation a few minutes ago in world with someone - that Linden Lab might actually chop off bits of the mainland where entire regions are just abandoned land. 

What part of that is NOT chopping off bits of mainland?  I have no idea what your claim is here but we can all read what you wrote.

I'm glad you made a "nice tidy profit" getting out of Glockler. Glockler was largely abandoned -- I looked it over at one point to see if it made sense to get most of that sim -- and then a big chunk was auctioned just this past November. Now the sim ahead of it, Gubby, which sort of has Blake waterfront that depends on the kidness of strangers is up for sale for a fantastic price.

Maybe the Lindens should carve deep sea channels in every sim that is abandoned and then sell the coastal areas on the auction since Blake fetches such a huge price.

As for your social Darwinism -- schooling me on what the Lindens do as "best for business" -- especially after you "got out just in time" for a "nice tidy sum" -- I'm afraid the Lindens aren't as cruel as their fans and would-be explicators. They know they have to have some decency in winding down their past programs -- which is why they ultimately paid compensation to telehub landowners rather than face a bait-and-switch lawsuit. Angering thousands of people who live on these sims and sometimes paid a lot for them -- and forcing them to leave SL altogether or launch lawsuits or press campaigns -- is hardly good for business.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Marigold Devin]

6 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is what you wrote, twice:

I think it is very likely - and I was just having this conversation a few minutes ago in world with someone - that Linden Lab might actually chop off bits of the mainland where entire regions are just abandoned land. 

What part of that is NOT chopping off bits of mainland?  I have no idea what your claim is here but we can all read what you wrote.

I'm glad you made a "nice tidy profit" getting out of Glockler. Glockler was largely abandoned -- I looked it over at one point to see if it made sense to get most of that sim -- and then a big chunk was auctioned just this past November. Now the sim ahead of it, Gubby, which sort of has Blake waterfront that depends on the kidness of strangers is up for sale for a fantastic price.

Maybe the Lindens should carve deep sea channels in every sim that is abandoned and then sell the coastal areas on the auction since Blake fetches such a huge price.

To be absolutely clear, you said:

"When people who don't live and work on the mainland come up with this "delightful" idea of having the Lindens "chop it up" or "delete parts of it" (Desmond Shang was among the first with this idea years ago, so you aren't the first), it's important to think about how this actually works."

An idea is not what I had. 

A thought was what I had. 

They are very different things.

And again... what the Linden's perhaps should do - or rather what you think they should do, and what they actually will do, are probably going to be very different things. 

I imagine they roll with laughter at some of the crap the residents come out with, in the main, apart from those who actually do have great ideas and become Lindens (and Moles) after proving their true worth by doing something other than talking utter bullsh1t on forums.

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Marigold Devin

[Prokofy Neva]

25 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

To be absolutely clear, you said:

"When people who don't live and work on the mainland come up with this "delightful" idea of having the Lindens "chop it up" or "delete parts of it" (Desmond Shang was among the first with this idea years ago, so you aren't the first), it's important to think about how this actually works."

An idea is not what I had. 

A thought was what I had. 

They are very different things.

And again... what the Linden's perhaps should do - or rather what you think they should do, and what they actually will do, are probably going to be very different things. 

I imagine they roll with laughter at some of the crap the residents come out with, in the main, apart from those who actually do have great ideas and become Lindens (and Moles) after proving their true worth by doing something other than talking utter bullsh1t on forums.

 

So I'll leave you to ponder the "difference" between "an idea" and "a thought," and for extra credit, think of "Sometimes A Great Notion," both the book and poem with that line.

And the reality here is that I said "when people..." and if you applied it to yourself, that's on you. And you did indeed mention an idea you heard from someone about chopping out Mainland, and thought fit to post it on the forums. You yourself "got out" of the Mainland from all appearances.

It doesn't matter if LL is some immoveable, cold, and impersonal force that "does what it wants" -- except that you can be damn sure the Moles are busy changing the bannisters on that stairway even as we speak. When people portray LL in this fashion, it's often in the hope that this monstrous, indifferent force will be deployed against their enemies, real or imagined.

And the reality is, the Lindens talk very, very pragmatically about the Mainland. They won't pay for sims to link it up one more drop than they wish it to. They are busy dumping huge swathes of abandoned into the auction, in huge pieces. They are rolling out numerous Bellisseria sims. So it's not rocket science, you just look at the map.

Sorry, but I don't view the path to human value as lying through attempts to get a job as a Mole or a Linden. I have a profession, thank you very much, and I think that even as an amateur in SL, without any coding or graphics skill, I can do very well and help others to have a good SL too. 

The best ideas in SL frankly come from the residents more than the Lindens, and the whole concept of Bellisseria is one they copied from Mainland or private island communities that existed long before Belli was even conceived. While the Lindens were allowing IMPEACH BUSH signs to be scattered all over the Mainland and pondering whether banning such an extortionist was politically correct or not, or while they were busy allowing a certain university to keep sending students -- and even a professor -- into SL to crash sim after sim and be allowed new chance after new chance on alts -- we were making tidy little parcels with fences and trees and parks. Hello!

Shame on you Marigold, you're usually better than this.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/16/2022 at 2:34 PM, Qie Niangao said:

To be honest, I too am not sure what would happen. The nightmare scenario would be that existing Mainlanders simply tier down to half their previous level to keep just the Mainland they had before. That won't happen, but nor is it guaranteed to be a win for the Lab. I suppose land barons would profit at least for a time, while folks compete to buy whatever land is available to fill out their accustomed tier level. That kind of churn would surely benefit the land barons but we can't really begrudge them that if the end result is that everybody gets more of what they want.

Such a move is semi-precedented, back when the bonus tier (only) doubled from 512 to 1024m² which applied to both Linden Homes and Mainland proper. I guess a wimpy version of the proposal would be to again double only that bonus tier, but only for Mainland proper not Belli/Linden Homes. At least that would somewhat offset the big penalty Mainlanders pay in land impact and costs of acquiring the parcel and build.

The nightmare scenario would be that existing Mainlanders simply tier down to half their previous level to keep just the Mainland they had before

That'd be me. The writing is on the wall as far as the Lindens' attitude toward Mainland, and they simply allow their most aggressive fans to do their talking for them.

[Feorie Frimon]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 Given that the embassies, after their initial ball, don't appear to engage in any activities whatsoever, and their ambassadors go back to Bellisseria to Bellisseria-based parties, either the Lindens will have to step in and get them to be more active, or create a new application process with better criteria and more openness. Or let them die a natural death. When the Lindens created the gateway system for various venues to receive and help newbies, they had a list of criteria that had to be met -- staff on hand, content, etc. etc. Yet they don't appear to have any of this criteria for "Embassies" which are often surrounded by abandoned land or no-show properties.

I suspect this time next year, all of this will be different for all kinds of reasons so there's no point in speculating further. I do think delivering the passport HUD into the mailbox automatically is the first step to broadening this experience.

My verdict is still out on the Embassies - I have faith and hope that whatever they do will encourage community and exploration on the mainland and I like that the Embassies are supposed to be ‘separate’ from the BBB.

My big concern is I’ve now been informed by three different Ambassadors over the last three weeks that in order for them to take the position, they have had to agree not to do anything with Operation Mainland - some have even said they were pushed heavily to not even associate with me or be my friend!

And that’s just the people who TOOK the Ambassador role! That doesn’t include everyone else. And get this - all of those people who came to me with video and screenshots and other information won’t go public with any of it because they don’t want ‘anyone to get mad at them’ or ‘loose their position’ or ‘have their account banned.

What am I suppose to do with that?

Honestly? I HOPE someone from that groups says on this thread that they ‘don’t do that’ or that they ‘didn’t know about this’. Maybe it will encourage all these people they’ve bullied into ‘staying quiet’ or ‘only talk to people I want you to talk to’ or ‘do what I want you to do’ to call them out and put an end to this nonsense once and for all. And for those of you blowing up my messages telling me that they are sorry they can’t say anything out loud, this isn’t a jab at you for keeping quiet - I understand your reasons and I’m not mad at you. But you also have to understand that your silence enables more cyberbullying at me - directly. And the paves the way for every other person that comes along that they decide later they don’t like.

Honestly? I am disappointed in Linden Lab the most. I’m trying to help make things better and help people have fun - I’ve been doing that for over 12 years in SL. I get that people don’t like each other, but I never thought the Lindens would let the BBB bully me or humiliate me in the BBB group. I definitely think that ‘not having anything to do with Operation Mainland’ is a pretty terrible requirement for a ‘mainland ambassador’ and I’m sad that anyone on the Linden staff would condone that kind of behavior. I was a pretty big ‘Mole - LDPW’ fangirl until this stuff started happening a few months ago.
 

But I digress - So… the question is… we want to help relations between Belli and Mainland? To encourage people to move from one to the other and create a full and healthy Secondlife community? 
 

Start by getting a different group of people heading up this ‘Bellisaria Volenteer Group’,  and when you get these new people, tell them it’s not okay to act like petulant highschool children and bully people into doing what you want. Tell those new volunteers to focus on doing stuff FOR Bellisaria - not spending time trying to figure out how to make my life (and the lives of those they don’t like) more difficult. I am not the first person who’s been harassed, insulted, humiliated, attacked, etc. by this group - I’m just the only person who will stand up and say something right now. 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Feorie Frimon
Added more details and fixed typos

[Qie Niangao]

9 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The writing is on the wall as far as the Lindens' attitude toward Mainland, and they simply allow their most aggressive fans to do their talking for them.

I guess, but I'm not sure I can decipher this wall-writing.

It's certainly possible for the Lab to just let Mainland fade ever further into quaint irrelevance. The Lab always favors showering attention on the current hotness even if it's cooled to lukewarm, rather than facing old problems and doing anything about them. So Belli is where it's at, still, and Mainland is nobody's next bonus. On the other hand, Mainland has been out of favor for most of its history (not as profitable as Estates, not as shiny as Linden Homes / Belli) and yet it has improved over the years.

The lure of current hotness is why now may be a good time to look for options to enhance Mainland, as potential coattails to Premium Plus, whether part of that offer or a coincident change to the base Premium subscription.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

33 minutes ago, Feorie Frimon said:

My verdict is still out on the Embassies - I have faith and hope that whatever they do will encourage community and exploration on the mainland and I like that the Embassies are supposed to be ‘separate’ from the BBB.

My big concern is I’ve now been informed by three different Ambassadors over the last three weeks that in order for them to take the position, they have had to agree not to do anything with Operation Mainland - some have even said they were pushed heavily to not even associate with me or be my friend!

And that’s just the people who TOOK the Ambassador role! That doesn’t include everyone else. And get this - all of those people who came to me with video and screenshots and other information won’t go public with any of it because they don’t want ‘anyone to get mad at them’ or ‘loose their position’ or ‘have their account banned.

What am I suppose to do with that?

Honestly? I HOPE someone from that groups says on this thread that they ‘don’t do that’ or that they ‘didn’t know about this’. Maybe it will encourage all these people they’ve bullied into ‘staying quiet’ or ‘only talk to people I want you to talk to’ or ‘do what I want you to do’ to call them out and put an end to this nonsense once and for all. And for those of you blowing up my messages telling me that they are sorry they can’t say anything out loud, this isn’t a jab at you for keeping quiet - I understand your reasons and I’m not mad at you. But you also have to understand that your silence enables more cyberbullying at me - directly. And the paves the way for every other person that comes along that they decide later they don’t like.

Honestly? I am disappointed in Linden Lab the most. I’m trying to help make things better and help people have fun - I’ve been doing that for over 12 years in SL. I get that people don’t like each other, but I never thought the Lindens would let the BBB bully me or humiliate me in the BBB group. I definitely think that ‘not having anything to do with Operation Mainland’ is a pretty terrible requirement for a ‘mainland ambassador’ and I’m sad that anyone on the Linden staff would condone that kind of behavior. I was a pretty big ‘Mole - LDPW’ fangirl until this stuff started happening a few months ago.
 

But I digress - So… the question is… we want to help relations between Belli and Mainland? To encourage people to move from one to the other and create a full and healthy Secondlife community? 
 

Start by getting a different group of people heading up this ‘Bellisaria Volenteer Group’,  and when you get these new people, tell them it’s not okay to act like petulant highschool children and bully people into doing what you want. Tell those new volunteers to focus on doing stuff FOR Bellisaria - not spending time trying to figure out how to make my life (and the lives of those they don’t like) more difficult. I am not the first person who’s been harassed, insulted, humiliated, attacked, etc. by this group - I’m just the only person who will stand up and say something right now. 

 

That's pretty terrible, and you've made your point effectively, but your belief that something might yet come of ambassadors like this is mistaken. It can't; it won't -- even if you replaced all of them. Because the premise is flawed -- that we Mainlanders need evangelizing and need to be herded into Bellisseria. We don't, for one, and for two, quite a few of us already have Bellisseria houses but we don't need to be in/around the BBB and their Lindens/Moles to have fun or a worthy second life worth living.

The list of names speaks for itself, and to pretend that these are "the best candidates for outreach to the Mainland" or "independent of the BB" is merely laughable. It's all the same as the BBB -- no need to burn in the point as simply reading the list explains it, and if you need it spelled out, look at their profiles.

I was banned from one of the openings for asking the obvious, straightforward question, "Which friend of the BBB will be the next ambassador?" This was considered rude, inappropriate, untoward, unfair, etc. etc. But it was just the natural question to ask, given what we see before our eyes, and sure enough, that next one *was* a friend, seen at all the parties and gallery openings and visible on the Fairgrounds right now as we speak.

And as I myself was told in a RL foundation job once, "We don't care if you pick your friends, just pick good friends." ARE they good friends? Some of them have obvious talents and anybody who gets a group together and keeps them together to do anything in SL is to be commended, even if it is only a boat parade. Of course, leaving behind a failed community highlights the problem as well, but whatever, virtual worlds are like that, right? Make a new alt, give it a new name, start over? Delete that land, get another one? 

Again, these embassies have zero traffic since the day of their Grand Balls; no evidence of anything but them making stamps of themselves to add to the stamp game -- stamps that get to be in multiple colours unlike the stamps of those of us who host venues, which must be only one colour.

Does this sell premium accounts? 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

44 minutes ago, Feorie Frimon said:

Honestly? I am disappointed in Linden Lab the most. I’m trying to help make things better and help people have fun - I’ve been doing that for over 12 years in SL. I get that people don’t like each other, but I never thought the Lindens would let the BBB bully me or humiliate me in the BBB group. I definitely think that ‘not having anything to do with Operation Mainland’ is a pretty terrible requirement for a ‘mainland ambassador’ and I’m sad that anyone on the Linden staff would condone that kind of behavior. I was a pretty big ‘Mole - LDPW’ fangirl until this stuff started happening a few months ago.

Well, that's exactly how NOT to promote good feelings between Bellisserian and Mainland residents. Brilliant strategy there by that group, I must say. 

Makes you wonder why they find the concept of "anyone can play the Mainland passport game" so very threatening. I wish I had screenshots, etc. to share, because I would be happy to do so. This needs to be dealt with because it's not reflecting at all well on LL or Bellisseria in general. The Lab needs to take a real hard look at who is running the ambassador project and do some house cleaning there, because who would want to leave Mainland to join a community with that kind of attitude?

 

[Feorie Frimon]

17 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Well, that's exactly how NOT to promote good feelings between Bellisserian and Mainland residents. Brilliant strategy there by that group, I must say. 

Makes you wonder why they find the concept of "anyone can play the Mainland passport game" so very threatening. I wish I had screenshots, etc. to share, because I would be happy to do so. This needs to be dealt with because it's not reflecting at all well on LL or Bellisseria in general. The Lab needs to take a real hard look at who is running the ambassador project and do some house cleaning there, because who would want to leave Mainland to join a community with that kind of attitude?

 

That’s all I’m saying! This is 100% the point. This entire thing has made my 12 relationship with SL (and let’s not talk about the $$ I’ve spent - Oh Lord! LOL) turn bitter. Over some stamps and a ‘cool kid club’. I don’t understand why it has to be ‘Bellisaria’ and ‘the Mainland’ or ‘people can only play what I want them to play’ or ‘do what I want’ or ‘talk to the people I want them to talk to’. It’s so stupid and it doesn’t help anything. In fact it breed animosity! 
 

If I thought Philip Rosedale would listen to me, I’d shine a light on this exact scenario as a glaring example of what is wrong with the direction we are going and this weird ‘divide’ being encouraged between residents. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Feorie Frimon

[Rufferta]

Setting up a Mainland Embassy in Bellisseria:

I have some time and tier available and I'm thinking of setting up a "Mainland Embassy" in some part of Bellisseria. I'm thinking such an embassy might be helpful to newcomers whose experience has only been in Bellisseria and who might be interested in venturing outside.

This 'Embassy' could provide links to posts and places that can offer help and advice on topics like:

What do we mean by Mainland?

Geography of Second Life

Who can buy land.

How to find land.

How to evaluate land before you buy it.

What is tier, anyway?

Renting vs. 'buying'.

Finding a house or structure that will fit on your parcel. 

How to make your own house.

Skyboxes.

Terraforming and terrain.

How to take advantage of the 10% group discount for land.

How to be a good neighbor.

Decorating on a prim budget.

 

I would be interested in knowing if the BBB would allow me to place one of their passport machines on such a parcel, especially since I am willing to let other groups have their kiosks in said 'Embassy'. 

I'm not social and can't offer big events or hoopla, but I can make up "Honorary Ambassador" certificates for anyone who wants one.

There will always be free coffee and donuts.

 

Added: This is not my original idea, it was inspired by others' suggestions. It makes sense that if Bellisseria has embassies on the Mainland, Mainland should have one or more embassies in Bellisseria. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Rufferta
correction

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 hour ago, Rufferta said:

Setting up a Mainland Embassy in Bellisseria:

I have some time and tier available and I'm thinking of setting up a "Mainland Embassy" in some part of Bellisseria. I'm thinking such an embassy might be helpful to newcomers whose experience has only been in Bellisseria and who might be interested in venturing outside.

This 'Embassy' could provide links to posts and places that can offer help and advice on topics like:

What do we mean by Mainland?

Geography of Second Life

Who can buy land.

How to find land.

How to evaluate land before you buy it.

What is tier, anyway?

Renting vs. 'buying'.

Finding a house or structure that will fit on your parcel. 

How to make your own house.

Skyboxes.

Terraforming and terrain.

How to take advantage of the 10% group discount for land.

How to be a good neighbor.

Decorating on a prim budget.

 

I would be interested in knowing if the BBB would allow me to place one of their kiosks on such a parcel, especially since I am willing to let other groups have their kiosks in said 'Embassy'. 

I'm not social and can't offer big events or hoopla, but I can make up "Honorary Ambassador" certificates for anyone who wants one.

There will always be free coffee and donuts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is a really great idea, and it's totally in line with the previously stated vision for Linden Homes, that they be "starter homes". The information you dispense will be very helpful for those ready to branch out beyond the safe walls of Bellisseria into the fun of land ownership on the Mainland. This has a lot of potential as a fun, inclusive, informative project.   

[Feorie Frimon]

1 hour ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I think this is a really great idea, and it's totally in line with the previously stated vision for Linden Homes, that they be "starter homes". The information you dispense will be very helpful for those ready to branch out beyond the safe walls of Bellisseria into the fun of land ownership on the Mainland. This has a lot of potential as a fun, inclusive, informative project.   

Agreed! Please let me know if you need any help!

[Prokofy Neva]

5 hours ago, Rufferta said:

Setting up a Mainland Embassy in Bellisseria:

I have some time and tier available and I'm thinking of setting up a "Mainland Embassy" in some part of Bellisseria. I'm thinking such an embassy might be helpful to newcomers whose experience has only been in Bellisseria and who might be interested in venturing outside.

This 'Embassy' could provide links to posts and places that can offer help and advice on topics like:

What do we mean by Mainland?

Geography of Second Life

Who can buy land.

How to find land.

How to evaluate land before you buy it.

What is tier, anyway?

Renting vs. 'buying'.

Finding a house or structure that will fit on your parcel. 

How to make your own house.

Skyboxes.

Terraforming and terrain.

How to take advantage of the 10% group discount for land.

How to be a good neighbor.

Decorating on a prim budget.

 

I would be interested in knowing if the BBB would allow me to place one of their kiosks on such a parcel, especially since I am willing to let other groups have their kiosks in said 'Embassy'. 

I'm not social and can't offer big events or hoopla, but I can make up "Honorary Ambassador" certificates for anyone who wants one.

There will always be free coffee and donuts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I told Feorie this idea some time ago and that I planned to do it, which is why she mentioned it here. It won't be the first time an idea is mentioned without attribution but I don't care. But you're welcome to try as well. I have a home and an ambassador and a stamp even already and will apply for it when I finish decorating -- which I've been slow to do, as I'm busy with other more pressing things. But there should be a dozen such ventures of different types, they will all have enough to do. More people should do this and make a network.

But you should hardly be asking the BBB if they would 'allow you" to place your kiosk on a Bellisserian property. They are not in charge of resident content in Bellisseria, my God! I put my SL Public Land Preserve info giver and Mainland Appreciation Society giver on my Bellisseria Commissary property in Belli and links to various sites. You should put anything you want within the TOS. You can't put these lots in search, but you can try making a group and getting members or just spread the word in the usual way on social media etc. 

Please do jettison the idea you need anyone's permission for this. No! There are all kinds of things on Bellisseria properties. You cannot have search or items for sales, but galleries for example, have LMs that link to their main gallery where works are for sale. All your ideas for topics/tutorials are great -- go for it if you want to spend $99 annualized.

I wonder if there is a category of people who have only been to Bellisseria and never anywhere else. I doubt it because for a new person to jump right into a premium account and understanding of tier and homes is not common, although I do find real newbies (or returnees after 10 years in my own rentals so I suppose its possible). The real task is to convince people who developed a prejudice sometimes by hearsay in their circle, and sometimes by direct experience, that they should come back to the Mainland.

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But you should hardly be asking the BBB if they would 'allow you" to place your kiosk on a Bellisserian property. They are not in charge of resident content in Bellisseria, my God! 

I believe what Rufferta said is that she wonders if the BBB group will let her put a *BBB* kiosk on her property. I suppose they do have control over that.