Payment info on file

[Adam Spark]

22 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm not referring to just those who own stores. My statement was general in nature, so there aren't any potential customers. There are those who need to keep stress levels down to a minimum. And please, don't try to claim those people shouldn't be in SL or online. 

If there is no incident to start with, there is no need to deal with it and you aren't cutting yourself off from potential customers. Griefers are not customers. They are there to cause problems, to disturb people, not to make purchases. If someone is a potential customer, they're most likely going to already have PIOF and have already bought Ls to make the purchases with, so they won't be excluded.

Griefers don't go to places to buy things, they go to places to make trouble.

I meant visitors. I used the term correctly the first time, the second I misused customers when i meant visitors. I wasn't referring to economic reasons at all.

There is nobody who shouldn't be in SL, or online, and I've never given a speck of a reason to make anyone think I've thought otherwise.

If the place is meant for visitors, yes they are cutting themselves off to  potential visitors. To each their own, I guess.

There are great people with no info on file. There are even customers with no info on file. I had no info on file for years, using linden dollars I earned working in SL only. There are also griefers that have been fully engaged in SL, including those who are customers.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Adam Spark

[Anna Salyx]

10 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My Alts don't have payment info on file either. They just get an allowance from my main. I've never had an issue with the alts being rejected or barred access from anywhere because of the lack of payment info.

You bring up an interesting point.  For good or for bad, if I see someone that's more than a a few months to over a year old, well made avatar (body, head, clothes, etc not from freebie places) with PIOF, my first instinct and inclination/thought is: "This is an alt." And, again for good or for ill, it colors how I view and/or interact with them. That is, as a host at a club, is this someone I might have recently kicked or banned and this alt is trying to get around that.  Or is it someone I know trying to pull a fast one on me or my club/group by hiding who they really are.  both have happened enough, sadly, that that's a valid suspicion.  Naturally this isn't always the case and I don't have this knee jerk reaction when just out and about, only when someone starts hanging out at my place of work or the places I go to chill at when not working.  I'm never bring it up or ask, and try to treat everyone as a unique person, but it it sticks in the back of my head.  but at the same time, a good stalker will make sure that the PIOF is there so cover that track.  so.  there is that too.

Anyways, I'm just rambling on on a thought that zipped into my head at your comment, not calling out.  everyone plays different and not any one way is more right or wrong than any other.  (unless the goal is to hurt someone who did not agree to that; that's wrong.)

Pax.

[belindacarson]

You could try asking billing support, I don't recall the number off the top of my head, but if you're not in the USA use Skype to call it for free from abroad.

[SandorWren]

16 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It needs to be removed entirely.

The financial relationship between LL and their customers is no one's business, especially when this information's only purpose is to ostracize and exclude people.

 

 

Some of us thought of it as a sort of age verification system to make sure that we aren't providing sexual services to anyone underage. Because a person can't have a credit card account under the age of 18. But they can be authorized users at 14 in Canada, so it really doesn't indicate anything. As it was discussed in another thread, we have to accept LL's verification as people being over 18. And if someone is 13 years old in SL, then they would logically have to be over 18 in RL. Also, a person can make an alt with no payment info, and pay themselves from their other account, as Anna brought up.

 

11 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I disagree. I've rarely even notice that part of a person's profile. How this seriously  impacts a new user experience is baffling to me.  It did, however keep the griefer from continually landing on my land with a series of alts with no payment information and having to continually ban alt after alt.

I never thought of this aspect, but it could be very helpful in situations like that. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Bagnu

[SandorWren]

And speaking of griefers, it reminded me of a nagging beggar. He was constantly nagging myself and my partner for money. So I told him he can have money. If he comes home with us and has sex with me and my (beautiful female) partner as well. He IM'd back saying I was crazy, and never bothered us again. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Bagnu

[LunaRavencroft]

For me.. personally.. it's a completion thing. A matter of pride, if you will. I love things being complete. I loved (when I first existed) having a last name, etc..

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

15 hours ago, Adam Spark said:

I've never thought of it before, but this is so true. I understand why you need to have payment info on file or used in certain situations. But there really isn't one that requires John Doe avatar knowing.

Even the land option to not allow access to those without info on file (which is ridiculous in its own right, but I digress) doesn't require the status to be displayed publicly. The only time you "need" to know anything about my business engagement with Linden Lab is if you see me in a premium only area.

I wish they would remove it. Serves no purpose. That box should be change to only indicate if the avatar is a Linden Staff or Resident. Nothing else.

[Coffee Pancake]

Go make 2 new avatars.

Add PIOF on file to one of them.

Try and participate in SL by going to popular locations.

See which one gets banned on sight more.

SL sucks for new residents, we're openly hostile because that one time some jerk was bad, and PIOF is a key part of that mechanism. 

[Sprout Evergarden]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:35 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

It needs to be removed entirely.

The financial relationship between LL and their customers is no one's business, especially when this information's only purpose is to ostracize and exclude people.

 

 

I turn on payment information requirement in every parcel I own because it is the single best way to stop "Throw away accounts" from visiting to cause trouble. Which is what linden lab indented the feature to be used for as a Security feature. Security is Ostracizing and exclusionary by it's verry nature it mostly goes after people who wish to do bad things but can occasionally get people with no bad intentions 

Even real life law has to dance around these lines there is a thought experiment that is hotly debated in Law enforcement circles called the freezing Man  which reads as the following. 

A hiker in the mountains gets cought in a blizzard which restricts his visibility and the accompanying windchill is regarded Dangerous to human life. Fortunately the hiker comes across someone's Hunting cabin and find's a key for it hidden under the mat and he goes inside purely to shelter himself from the elements. while he is sheltering the blizzard dumps enough snow on the ground to make the trails impassable and the weather becomes cold as well so he winds up staying a few days in the cabin until it is safe to go back outside

During the hiker's stay he burned the cabin owners firewood and ate some cans of beans found in the pantry. Should the hiker be charged with one or more of the following Trespass (Class A misdemeanor... ticket and sent on your way)  or burglary (class F felony  12.5 years in prison)

yes you can go to prison for saving your life in this way if the Jury does not pay attention to all the elements of a statute 

[Lucia Nightfire]

I operate an adult animesh entertainment service in SL. The entire service/moderation is fully automated, meaning there is no staff employed nor on-site.

I require not only PIOF to use the service, but PIU as well. I also require minimum 30 days SL account age and a minimum height be maintained at all times.

I also monitor if users wear flagged content, particularly child/cub mesh heads/bodies.

I have personally witnessed problems in the AFK industry in regards to both a*e pl*y and fraud (Linden Assessments).

The aforementioned requirements are in place to protect myself and to keep the occurrence of a*e pl*y and fraud to an absolute minimum.

I want to exhaust every possible angle in ensuring that an adult is using the service.

A user with PIOF & PIU is far less likely to risk engaging in these two acts as it could lead not only to all of their current & future accounts being permabanned, but possible involvement with law enforcement.

Deterring griefers is another benefit, but it is the not highest priority.

In regards to publicly displaying PIOF or PIU in profiles, I'm torn.

I certainly agree the info isn't "everyone's" business, but when a user involves them self with publicly offered/operated adult services, I feel owners/staff need access to the info via profile and/or script.

Casinos are another area, but I think people with both PIOF & PIU are automatically checked for this at the server before they can enter skill gaming regions. Account profiles might not show updated PIOF & PIU until they relog though. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-230847

Sadly, non-skill gaming parcel/region access cannot be set up to require both PIOF & PIU, only PIOF.

Registering PIOF is one thing, but actually using it (PIU) puts fraudsters at risk.

The PIOF creation bug when purchasing products on MP with L$ should have been fixed a few years ago.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Quistess Alpha]

42 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

PIU

Acronym translation please?

[Liaa Nova]

On 12/5/2021 at 2:35 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

It needs to be removed entirely.

The financial relationship between LL and their customers is no one's business, especially when this information's only purpose is to ostracize and exclude people.

I have suggested this to them, no idea what they did with the suggestion. I am very against this being in a profile, it's nobody's business and attracts the wrong people

 

 

[Liaa Nova]

7 hours ago, Atosuria Daviau said:

I turn on payment information requirement in every parcel I own because it is the single best way to stop "Throw away accounts" from visiting to cause trouble. Which is what linden lab indented the feature to be used for as a Security feature. Security is Ostracizing and exclusionary by it's verry nature it mostly goes after people who wish to do bad things but can occasionally get people with no bad intentions 

Even real life law has to dance around these lines there is a thought experiment that is hotly debated in Law enforcement circles called the freezing Man  which reads as the following. 

A hiker in the mountains gets cought in a blizzard which restricts his visibility and the accompanying windchill is regarded Dangerous to human life. Fortunately the hiker comes across someone's Hunting cabin and find's a key for it hidden under the mat and he goes inside purely to shelter himself from the elements. while he is sheltering the blizzard dumps enough snow on the ground to make the trails impassable and the weather becomes cold as well so he winds up staying a few days in the cabin until it is safe to go back outside

During the hiker's stay he burned the cabin owners firewood and ate some cans of beans found in the pantry. Should the hiker be charged with one or more of the following Trespass (Class A misdemeanor... ticket and sent on your way)  or burglary (class F felony  12.5 years in prison)

yes you can go to prison for saving your life in this way if the Jury does not pay attention to all the elements of a statute 

Sure, but it doesn't need to make it visible

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

In regards to publicly displaying PIOF or PIU in profiles, I'm torn.

I certainly agree the info isn't "everyone's" business, but when a user involves them self with publicly offered/operated adult services, I feel owners/staff need access to the info via profile and/or script.

Do you think account hackers go after those residents who have no PIOF? They use the same info you do and though you get the opportunity to protect yourself from a*e pl*yers and such like, it is at the expense of making residents more vulnerable to those who break into people's accounts. After a friend was recently hacked, I am personally getting more careful about what account I store my Lindens on and for which one I purchase the preponderance of products for. If I was to be interested in your products or those of any other adult product content creators, it would not be for my account with the PIOF listing since I realize that it puts a target on my back for those who engage in account hacking for fun and profit. From that perspective I would not even be that happy with that info being accessible through user created scripts since then anyone could still gather a list of accounts that are most likely to have L$ in them even if that info is not listed right out in the profile. I really do not think your right to feeling safe that your products are being bought by those you think are worthy of them, trumps my right to to privatize my financial relationship with LL.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

Acronym translation please?

Payment Information Used

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I have personally witnessed problems in the AFK industry in regards to both a*e pl*y and fraud (Linden Assessments).

If removing PIOF and PIU results in the end of AFK sex, I think the case for removal just got a lot stronger .. sheesh.

[Lucia Nightfire]

17 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Do you think account hackers go after those residents who have no PIOF? They use the same info you do and though you get the opportunity to protect yourself from a*e pl*yers and such like, it is at the expense of making residents more vulnerable to those who break into people's accounts. After a friend was recently hacked, I am personally getting more careful about what account I store my Lindens on and for which one I purchase the preponderance of products for. If I was to be interested in your products or those of any other adult product content creators, it would not be for my account with the PIOF listing since I realize that it puts a target on my back for those who engage in account hacking for fun and profit. From that perspective I would not even be that happy with that info being accessible through user created scripts since then anyone could still gather a list of accounts that are most likely to have L$ in them even if that info is not listed right out in the profile. I really do not think your right to feeling safe that your products are being bought by those you think are worthy of them, trumps my right to to privatize my financial relationship with LL.

In that regard, any Mainland or Linden Homes parcel owner or any skill gaming region or Premium sandbox visitor also would also be just as easily "scraped" or targeted.

Sadly, I do not have an answer that will satisfy all parties.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Lucia Nightfire

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

6 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Do you think account hackers go after those residents who have no PIOF? They use the same info you do and though you get the opportunity to protect yourself from a*e pl*yers and such like, it is at the expense of making residents more vulnerable to those who break into people's accounts. After a friend was recently hacked, I am personally getting more careful about what account I store my Lindens on and for which one I purchase the preponderance of products for. If I was to be interested in your products or those of any other adult product content creators, it would not be for my account with the PIOF listing since I realize that it puts a target on my back for those who engage in account hacking for fun and profit. From that perspective I would not even be that happy with that info being accessible through user created scripts since then anyone could still gather a list of accounts that are most likely to have L$ in them even if that info is not listed right out in the profile. I really do not think your right to feeling safe that your products are being bought by those you think are worthy of them, trumps my right to to privatize my financial relationship with LL.

I believe that stuff could be done internally without being displayed on the profiles. If a land owner sets up the PIOF and/or PIU, the system will permit that avi to proceed.