Being premium without premium benefits?

[Resi Pfeffer]

7 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I one automated renewal that sends me a notice one month before billing and then again one week before billing.  I know why companies don't -- They really don't want to remind you that you could cancel, but it would still be more customer friendly if they did.

Sometimes there is some light in the darkness. While years ago there just have been 12 and 24 month contracts, my ISP offers monthly termination.
Same thing with the cellphone contract. 20 Euro for telephone flatrate and 6GB data volume, terminable every month.
So, there is hope...

[Resi Pfeffer]

So, finally got an answer to the ticket i filed because of that issue.
In short words: "Thank you for your feedback. We will take your opinion into consideration."
As i work for a company what also deals with customers, i know what that sentence means, but at least it was nicely written.

Thats where i step aside now, back to Basic and Homesteads. Premium was just a half year adventure for me, and if someone else is bothered by the early loss of the LH, they better get their butts off the sofas.
 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typo, and added some words

[Lexbot Sinister]

When i discovered this, i was also quite upset. I don't see how it could be possibly legal to withdraw benefits that are already paid for, ahead of time.

I frankly don't care about the technical aspect of it, even though i understand quite well all the "why's" and "but's" . It simply doesn't matter, if they are unable to solve it with a technical solution, then too bad, refunds are due for the time i can not use the service as paid for.

I did also talk with support about it, and to boil down the conversation, no reasons were given, aside " it is how it is, live with it, whatever, are we done?"

Of course this is very handy for LL, to make people wait to unsubscribe, with always the chance they will forget or otherwise be unable to unsubscribe, and then they automatically get billed for another period of time.

 

I'm not buying the whole "but boohoo, what if peoples stuff gets returned?". Yes, what of it? Private landlords have been returning items after lease end since the beginning of SL landlords, and while some confused newbie gets upset, it's pretty simple to understand that the day you are no longer paying for a service, you get evicted. Whole sims have been returned that way, as well with sub-renters (rp sims etc) and it's up to the sub-renter to take their issues with the person they paid to.

 

There is nothing in this practice that will somehow automagically prevent your items getting returned by LL, if the main landowner fails to pay for the subscription. Cancelled credit cards, someone dying etc should have the same result, with the exception that LL continues to try to bill the original owner. Group land will be left to squat, at least for a while, but getting items returned by LL if no one is paying for the land, is still inevitable.

So it's not of any kind of protection for sub-renters from getting their items returned in the long run. LL doesn't contact sub-renters to tell them their main landlord has defaulted on payments.

To me, this seems extremely backwards. Protect those that have land that is unpaid for, but penalize with withdrawn service, those that are still paying but have an end date?  Odd way to prioritize...

Imagine other way around though, renting from a private landlord, you tell them you will need to end your sim lease in two months. I would say, most will thank you for the heads up, being given some time to plan ahead.  But imagine they did it the LL way. You tell them you will end the lease in two months time, everything is paid ahead, and they tell you to take your things immediately and leave. No money back. I know i'd be pretty livid.

[Alyona Su]

44 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

When i discovered this, i was also quite upset. I don't see how it could be possibly legal to withdraw benefits that are already paid for, ahead of time.

They do not withdraw benefits; you choose to give up and forego benefits. It's all on you, no one else.

[Resi Pfeffer]

52 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

When i discovered this, i was also quite upset. I don't see how it could be possibly legal to withdraw benefits that are already paid for, ahead of time.

I frankly don't care about the technical aspect of it, even though i understand quite well all the "why's" and "but's" . It simply doesn't matter, if they are unable to solve it with a technical solution, then too bad, refunds are due for the time i can not use the service as paid for.

I did also talk with support about it, and to boil down the conversation, no reasons were given, aside " it is how it is, live with it, whatever, are we done?"

Of course this is very handy for LL, to make people wait to unsubscribe, with always the chance they will forget or otherwise be unable to unsubscribe, and then they automatically get billed for another period of time.

 

I'm not buying the whole "but boohoo, what if peoples stuff gets returned?". Yes, what of it? Private landlords have been returning items after lease end since the beginning of SL landlords, and while some confused newbie gets upset, it's pretty simple to understand that the day you are no longer paying for a service, you get evicted. Whole sims have been returned that way, as well with sub-renters (rp sims etc) and it's up to the sub-renter to take their issues with the person they paid to.

 

There is nothing in this practice that will somehow automagically prevent your items getting returned by LL, if the main landowner fails to pay for the subscription. Cancelled credit cards, someone dying etc should have the same result, with the exception that LL continues to try to bill the original owner. Group land will be left to squat, at least for a while, but getting items returned by LL if no one is paying for the land, is still inevitable.

So it's not of any kind of protection for sub-renters from getting their items returned in the long run. LL doesn't contact sub-renters to tell them their main landlord has defaulted on payments.

To me, this seems extremely backwards. Protect those that have land that is unpaid for, but penalize with withdrawn service, those that are still paying but have an end date?  Odd way to prioritize...

Imagine other way around though, renting from a private landlord, you tell them you will need to end your sim lease in two months. I would say, most will thank you for the heads up, being given some time to plan ahead.  But imagine they did it the LL way. You tell them you will end the lease in two months time, everything is paid ahead, and they tell you to take your things immediately and leave. No money back. I know i'd be pretty livid.

Im glad, someone is with me
But i made my peace with that not so fine business model already.

Well, maybe its not a even a ripoff when everybody else is OK with that, right? I also pointed out the same like you, but no one really seems to care.
Me or you can tell 1000 times "Imagine you order a burger menu at McDonalds, and as you decide not to eat the burger, they also take away the fries and the coke." - it wont change anything.
As someone in this topic said already, maybe its a cultural thing? In europe they would have noooo chance at all, and a "Its because of the object return" would just guarantee them another laughter and a fine from the EU.

But does it matter to me or people who dont want a LH or mainland? I was fine for almost 13 years now being basic. Premium was just to try a LH once.
I can build on my homestead parcel, i dont need premium sandboxes, i dont like mainland because of the anarchy all over, the premium presents i get, i also can buy at the marketplace.

Chin up

[Resi Pfeffer]

23 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

They do not withdraw benefits; you choose to give up and forego benefits. It's all on you, no one else.

Im forced to give up my mainland/LH to be able to downgrade to basic to a  deadline (end of premium time)
I have paid until the last day (monthly/quarter/year) but i will loose something before the deadline. (mainland/LH).

Dont get me wrong. Not trying to get my LH back at all. And even better, when you and otherd are ok with the premium cancelling prozess. Then LL has done everything right. ^^
But like i said already, there are places on earth, where this never ever would be allowed. And im from one of that places. Maybe thats why it bothers me Lexbot that much.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer

[Silent Mistwalker]

Whoa. My already very long list of reasons to not go premium just got even longer. Good job LL! You're batting 1000! 

 

[Alyona Su]

51 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Im forced to give up my mainland/LH to be able to downgrade to basic to a  deadline

Edit to clarify: "General you" - not directed at Resi specifically LOL

You are not forced. You are choosing to do it. Otherwise, abandon your land and downgrade on the last day of your subscription. Do to any of it before the last day of the subscription is your proactive choice, you are not being forced to do anything. You can play the "victim" card if you choose, but everyone else sees the Emperor's new clothes for what they really are.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Alyona Su

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

I have paid until the last day (monthly/quarter/year) but i will loose something before the deadline. (mainland/LH).

For the Premium account that I most recently downgraded, I did it the evening before the billing would happen the next morning.  I didn't give up anything any sooner than I had to. 

If someone doesn't want to have to remember exactly when to do the downgrade, and therefore chooses to do it early, that is on them, not LL.

[TheVeryFirst]

I just went through this not to long ago. I went premium to get a house in Bellisseria, I got it but I don’t like the houses, rooms are to small for me. So I downgraded thinking, I’ll just stay in one of the older homes for the last two months of my premium. But I couldn't get a house and I saw no way of reversing my down grade to basic. I was, and am still not happy with how that works.

I paid for premium, I was still premium, I would liked to be able to use what I paid for!

And I know that I for one could very easily miss logging on to downgrade on time and be stuck with a bill from LL. All kinds of things could happen.

Someone needs to submit a ticket to be downgraded on a specific day and see if you can do that, but I doubt it.

And just for the record I am premium again, annual this time, and I’m back in Bellisseria living in my skybox, its big, roomy and I love it. My house is empty, well except for some clown that lives on the second floor, but I don’t use it so its okay.

[Mollymews]

5 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

I saw no way of reversing my down grade to basic

this is something that Linden could look into. An option on the page to reverse/cancel a downgrade. Not only for the reason that OP gives, but also sometimes we can rage/depressed/quit, which after a few days reflection we can come to regret

the current method to remedy this to file a ticket. A thing with reversing/cancelling a downgrade is that this is a mea culpa situation for the user.   With a ticket the user has to engage with another person (the ticket support person), which is quite a big step up, in these kinds of mea culpa situations, from pressing a button without having to interact with the other person

[Rolig Loon]

27 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

the current method to remedy this to file a ticket. A thing with reversing/cancelling a downgrade is that this is a mea culpa situation for the user.   With a ticket the user has to engage with another person (the ticket support person), which is quite a big step up, in these kinds of mea culpa situations, from pressing a button without having to interact with the other person

Well, not a big step.  After all, as a Premium member, you have access to Live Chat, and they will assist if you say that you regret having decided to downgrade.  Remember, you are still a Premium member until the end of the period you have paid for.  So, call Live Chat, reverse the downgrade, and wait until a few days before the end of your Premium period.  THEN downgrade.

[Mollymews]

5 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Well, not a big step.  After all, as a Premium member, you have access to Live Chat, and they will assist if you say that you regret having decided to downgrade.  Remember, you are still a Premium member until the end of the period you have paid for.  So, call Live Chat, reverse the downgrade, and wait until a few days before the end of your Premium period.  THEN downgrade.

rather than having to interact with another person (the support person) would it not be simpler from the user's perspective to be able to press a button to do the reversal

[TheVeryFirst]

10 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Well, not a big step.  After all, as a Premium member, you have access to Live Chat, and they will assist if you say that you regret having decided to downgrade.  Remember, you are still a Premium member until the end of the period you have paid for.  So, call Live Chat, reverse the downgrade, and wait until a few days before the end of your Premium period.  THEN downgrade.

 

But when you downgrade to basic do you still have Live Chat?

And no I was not still premium, a premium member can get a Linden Home, I couldn't, so no I was not still premium, at least that is what was painfully obvious to me.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

10 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

 

But when you downgrade to basic do you still have Live Chat?

And no I was not still premium, a premium member can get a Linden Home, I couldn't, so no I was not still premium, at least that is what was painfully obvious to me.

 

You are still Premium until the pre-paid time period runs out.  You still get your L$300 weekly stipend.  You still have access to all of the Premium only areas - you can even still get any Premium gifts that might come out during that time.  You do still have access to Live Chat, as well as the additional categories of Support Tickets.  

The ONLY Premium benefit that you have to forfeit in order to request the downgrade is usage of your 1024 Tier in any way -- i.e. owning Mainland, owning a Linden Home, donating tier to a group.

[Rolig Loon]

11 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

But when you downgrade to basic do you still have Live Chat?

And no I was not still premium, a premium member can get a Linden Home, I couldn't, so no I was not still premium, at least that is what was painfully obvious to me.

1. Once you are actually a Basic member, you do not have access to Live Chat.  However, your Premium membership is prepaid, so you are a Premium member until the end of the period that you paid for. You may use Live Chat, Premium sandboxes, get your weekly stipend, and all the rest.  However ....

2. As soon as you announce that you want to downgrade, you enter an in-between state where you are Premium Pending Downgrade. In that status, you cannot own land on the Mainland (including a Linden Home) because you have to abandon that land in order to downgrade.  That's why it's wise to wait until near the end of your Premium period before annoncing that you want to downgrade.

 

[TheVeryFirst]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You are still Premium until the pre-paid time period runs out.  You still get your L$300 weekly stipend.  You still have access to all of the Premium only areas - you can even still get any Premium gifts that might come out during that time.  You do still have access to Live Chat, as well as the additional categories of Support Tickets.  

The ONLY Premium benefit that you have to forfeit in order to request the downgrade is usage of your 1024 Tier in any way -- i.e. owning Mainland, owning a Linden Home, donating tier to a group.

 

There is talk of different levels of premium, apparently we already have it, but I don’t know what its called, Almost Premium? You know, when you only get some of what you pay for, but not all of it.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

29 minutes ago, TheVeryFirst said:

 

There is talk of different levels of premium, apparently we already have it, but I don’t know what its called, Almost Premium? You know, when you only get some of what you pay for, but not all of it.

 

It's actually called "Pending Downgrade" -- LL's terms.

[TheVeryFirst]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

It's actually called "Pending Downgrade" -- LL's terms.

 

Pending, LOL, words have meanings, this does not mean what they think it does.
Downgrade “has taken place”, complete return to Basic is “Pending”.

 

[Resi Pfeffer]

13 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

You are not forced. You are choosing to do it. Otherwise, abandon your land and downgrade on the last day of your subscription. Do to any of it before the last day of the subscription is your proactive choice, you are not being forced to do anything. You can play the "victim" card

You got me wrong, obviously. I dont feel like a victim at all. See it more as a fight for more customer rights. Everyone of us would benefit, not only me. Especially because i dont even see any benefits being premium for myself.
As i stated earlier, i just wanted to give it a shot. I was fine being basic for 12 years, and will be fine being basic for the next 12 years. No rage quit at all.

8 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If someone doesn't want to have to remember exactly when to do the downgrade, and therefore chooses to do it early, that is on them, not LL.

Thank you for the hint. I have hairdresser appointments, once a year i have to bring my car in for an oil service and especially at work i have to be aware of a lot of deadlines. So, im quite used to calendars and yellow sticky notes.
Ill accept you being fine having your screen frame covered with reminders, while i write my termination letter right after i sign a contract, without having any disadvantages.
Of course, ill have to accept LLs rules, when i accept their TOS, what i do. But still doesnt feel right to me.
 

[Alyona Su]

6 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

You got me wrong, obviously. I dont feel like a victim at all. See it more as a fight for more customer rights

I see how you have conveniently removed from your quote of my words the part where I say my response was to all readers and not specifically you. I never said you are acting the "victim" card. As for consumer rights: it's a moot argument; consumer rights are not in play here. Is it also not a right to choose not to proactively downgrade early? What you are saying, in essence, is that you expect different rights for yourself than for others.

All in all, it is already established that the reason for abandoning all land holdings or group-donating of land holdings prior to downgrading is not a policy issue, but rather a technical issue with the capability of the system as designed 16 years ago.

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

I see how you have conveniently removed from your quote of my words the part where I say my response was to all readers and not specifically you. I never said you are acting the "victim" card.

Did you get up with the wrong foot today? If you talk to all readers, then you also talk to me. I didnt quote or say anything out of context, so i would be happy, if you could keep your accusations for yourself.

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

As for consumer rights: it's a moot argument; consumer rights are not in play here. Is it also not a right to choose not to proactively downgrade early? What you are saying, in essence, is that you expect different rights for yourself than for others.

Jeez, whats the matter with you? When did i say that? I even stated in my last post, that all of us would benefit.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

it is already established that the reason for abandoning all land holdings or group-donating of land holdings prior to downgrading is not a policy issue, but rather a technical issue with the capability of the system as designed 16 years ago.

no that discussion  not too long ago was just speculation about what the reason could be, if this ever been offiicially announced or confirmed please put that in your post.

IF LL would be a EU company, it would be easy: FIX it or don't offer it at premium perk. And that is the only reason why for europeans this way of downgrading is against consumer rights, even when not being able to repair, it's still a thing for us. That your opinion can't match with that isn't our problem.

[TheVeryFirst]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

I see how you have conveniently removed from your quote of my words the part where I say my response was to all readers and not specifically you. I never said you are acting the "victim" card. As for consumer rights: it's a moot argument; consumer rights are not in play here. Is it also not a right to choose not to proactively downgrade early? What you are saying, in essence, is that you expect different rights for yourself than for others.

All in all, it is already established that the reason for abandoning all land holdings or group-donating of land holdings prior to downgrading is not a policy issue, but rather a technical issue with the capability of the system as designed 16 years ago.

 

I, IMHO, think the 16 year old system can’t do it, is a cop out. Even a bad programmer could come up with other ways of handling it. Just add a button to the web page saying, to downgrade and keep your premium benefits until the end of your subscription click here. It would set a reminder to billing not to bill for another iteration of premium and to downgrade the account to Basic.

All the web pages were not scripted 16 years ago and never changed, a more user friendly option can be made available.

 

[Alyona Su]

/me laughs

It is what it is, folks.