A New LEA? How Can LL Best Support the Arts in Second Life?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Door's been slammed in my face before I ever even pulled into the driveway.

Why do you think so, Selene? Some of the proposals here certainly suggest that new and emerging artists -- or even just those who are not well known or established -- should be a part of any new initiative?

There's no consensus here, just a whole bunch of different ideas.

[Selene Gregoire]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Why do you think so, Selene? Some of the proposals here certainly suggest that new and emerging artists -- or even just those who are not well known or established -- should be a part of any new initiative?

There's no consensus here, just a whole bunch of different ideas.

The limits/restrictions that are being proposed.

https://epochmagonline.com/can-we-limit-art-46f50e8da2be

The very last sentence:

Quote

Perhaps the sole limit of art is humanity itself, which in the long run will decide the ideas, techniques, and types of art are to stay and be appreciated by future generations.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The limits/restrictions that are being proposed.

By whom? What sorts of limits or restrictions trouble you?

[Selene Gregoire]

26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

By whom? What sorts of limits or restrictions trouble you?

Bits and pieces from pretty much everyone in the thread. Define art.

Between my answers here and the article I posted, I don't know how else to put it into words. 

This may be one of those "brain, brain, what is brain" days.

 

[kiramanell]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

If this thread is any indication of how LEA is going to be run in the future... you won't be seeing any of my work. Door's been slammed in my face before I ever even pulled into the driveway. Which makes me wonder if this wasn't part of the problem to begin with. Artists being shut out/left out just because they are different.

Good luck. You guys are going to need it.

 

Wait, what happened?! I'm not seeing it.  Was it was something I said, then I apologize. Heck, I was only supposed to lurk here anyway,

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

If this thread is any indication of how LEA is going to be run in the future... you won't be seeing any of my work. Door's been slammed in my face before I ever even pulled into the driveway. Which makes me wonder if this wasn't part of the problem to begin with. Artists being shut out/left out just because they are different.

Good luck. You guys are going to need it.

Apparently, ya gotta be fartsy, not just artsy.

[Selene Gregoire]

15 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Wait, what happened?! I'm not seeing it.  Was it was something I said, then I apologize. Heck, I was only supposed to lurk here anyway,

I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything you said. Don't lurk on my account.

[kiramanell]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Why do you think so, Selene? Some of the proposals here certainly suggest that new and emerging artists -- or even just those who are not well known or established -- should be a part of any new initiative?

There's no consensus here, just a whole bunch of different ideas.

 

So many different ideas even, I'm having a hard time keeping up. 😍

But waxing serious for a moment, if I read you right, Scylla (and, in all unmodesty, I think I was), then I really saw you argue pro inclusiveness, rather than having a small 'clique' of established artists/rulers, who determine what goes.

[Selene Gregoire]

25 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Apparently, ya gotta be fartsy, not just artsy.

I got the opposite impression. You have to be artsy without being fartsy.

 

ETA: In the sense that, for example, for many centuries pottery was not considered an art, whereas today it is. Pottery was even called artsy fartsy by many critics.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Prokofy Neva]

I think Dekka Raymaker has made some very interesting points about art versus craft that seem particularly true of the medium of Second Life; Mollymews is right about the essential ephemeral nature of SL art and Scylla Rhiadra has some good ideas for the modalities of a revised LEA.

I think first, the idea that the Lindens "must" support the arts is flawed because they are not a government and we are not a people. Or at least, they are not a liberal democratic government under the rule of law, and we cannot vote or have the power of the purse through a parliament, and the free press and justice system to back it up. So the analogy is flawed. It inevitably degenerates to its actual nature, which is that a corporation with its own interests chooses the people and projects that they feel best reflect those interests and naturally gravitate to their friends, which makes it essentially unfair, strife-prone and actually not good art.

Real artists in SL don't need someone to give them a sim. They either value it enough to pay for it themselves or get friends to do so, or they do things like buy little pieces of abandoned land scattered around the mainland and put up works, such as what I have seen recently with the "holy spaces" idea in some of the bleakest parts of the Mainland.

People mourn the passing of great sims but they seldom want to spend the real money required to keep them going, which doesn't mean $100 in a tip jar. And the artists don't want to do what it takes to raise money in SL because they are allergic to commerce.  I just visited yet another great work of art sim where there wasn't a single souvenir for sale for any low or high price, but only hugely high-priced rentals in one area that might or might not take off.

As in RL, artists tend to be leftists and liberals who embrace various social theories antithetical to capitalism, so they don't believe in business sustaining their efforts. But rather than endlessly hammer on the Lindens or make do with committees of their friends, that's where they should be going, to businesses in SL that can afford sustaining the arts as a form of advertising or simply public good will. There is an enormous amount of cash in the breedables, vehicles, sex furniture, rentals businesses (those with huge numbers of sims, which would not be me). So that's where the money is and that's where the support can and should come from.

In the setting of SL, which is kind of like a cross between an Ayn Rand novel, McDonald's,  Tompkins Square Park and the Calafou Hackers' farm, i.e. extreme technocapitalism and technocommunism, it might make more sense either to find ancient Medicis, patrons of the arts, or crowd-funding or some rabid collective. There is no government and in fact no "public" in SL that you can reasonably access.

There is a market, if distorted, of people who do pay for art works, sometimes a lot -- I remember I once sold an original single work of Starax's for US $300 and I myself often buy art works that amount to motel art in my rentals for $1000L or more. Such is Second Life.

There is an enormous amount of art in SL that sustains itself, some with one-person shows on little lots or through sales or other things. It might pay to expand the notion of what is art, i.e. to me a themed, landscaped sim can be art and SL photographs can be art, which are usually not what people are thinking of in these discussions. There are installations that the highbrows of SL whisper about in hushed tones but to me it looks like a lot of derivative Boston art school rejects, broken umbrellas, doll parts and mournful circus music. I recently went around with a flaming porcelain doll head in hand to satirize one with piano music blowing around on the ground.

On the other hand, some pieces of what seems to be the shoddiest mass art from Raglan Shire Art Walk or something, amidst the fractals and twisted prims just make you happy and you want to look at them all the time.

In RL, even museums that get government grants have to have things that sell in the gift shop and the SL artworld needs a lot more of that. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Selene Gregoire]

I think I'll just go peddle my art elsewhere outside of SL.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I think I'll just go peddle my art elsewhere outside of SL.

Considered setting up a “patron” account? People donate, you use that to make art, donators get to see the art.

[Selene Gregoire]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Considered setting up a “patron” account? People donate, you use that to make art, donators get to see the art.

I'm in kind of a Catch 22 situation. I don't have the money to get the materials I need as "proof" of my ability (and I'm not just trying to scam people) so setting up any kind of patron account is pointless as I don't currently have anything to "show".

You got have money to make money. I simply don't have it and likely never will. That's just how it is.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Selene Gregoire]

I do have one question before I go to lurking on this thread myself.

Would any of you consider either of these images a work or works of art? File size limit is making me do this in two posts.

And it's not letting me post the other one... one moment please.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[kiramanell]

5 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I'm in kind of a Catch 22 situation. I don't have the money to get the materials I need as "proof" of my ability (and I'm not just trying to scam people) so setting up any kind of patron account is pointless as I don't currently have anything to "show".

 

Way I understood Patron accounts, is that you don't immediately need to sell anything. You can just offer one of the many options available for patronage, to just let your patrons send their financial contribution to you on a 'per item released' basis (with a max per month, iirc).

[Selene Gregoire]

Yay for page refresh.

ETA: better cropped image

Edited July 31, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Selene Gregoire]

43 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Way I understood Patron accounts, is that you don't immediately need to sell anything. You can just offer one of the many options available for patronage, to just let your patrons send their financial contribution to you on a 'per item released' basis (with a max per month, iirc).

This one is on me, not you or anyone else. To me, it's like accepting charity. I can't do it that way. It just feels wrong to me. 

[Seicher Rae]

14 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But at the heart of designing a new mission has to be the question . . . who are we doing this for? Is the idea to support "artists"? Or is it to produce public art that will enhance the culture of Second Life, and the experience of its residents?

I come down pretty firmly on the side of the latter. I actually don't believe artists are a sort of special breed of people who merit cossetting and special consideration. What is important is what they produce, and how that impacts upon other lives than their own.

So, while I would generally (with reservations) agree with Dekka that art is not "democratic," in the sense that its status or excellence should be subjected to popular vote, I personally don't see any point to a program like this one unless it is impacting upon as broad a range of residents as is possible, and consistent with its status as "art" (whatever we might decide that means). Artists who want to be "nurtured" and allowed to just do their own thing without any interference or evaluation from outside should buy their own sims, or find a tame patron. That's not what this program should be about.

I agree that the art produced is more important than the artist who produced it, and it should be for any LEA that goes forward.

Good luck to any who want to decide what is art. There's been debate about is it art? or is it craft? probably since the first person traced her hand on a cave wall. When I was taking both fine and applied art classes in university, there was that distinction. Illustration was a craft, not art! Painting was art, but photography was still if-y, especially if there were a lot of dark room modifications. There's creativity in a lot of things, I'm not sure there is the same amount of art. I personally shudder at everything is art because I think that ultimately reduces down to nothing is art. But it is difficult to run a program based on I know it when I see it. The areas in RL where I can sit and absorb art for hours on end may be the exact same areas where people rush through to get to something better, and there are certainly gallery and museum exhibits where I question the sanity of whoever allowed that stupid thing in, while obviously it was deemed worthy to be shown.

Perhaps there can be different segments of art at LEA. Sims dedicated to decorative art (which would include those fairy mushrooms!), performance art, audio art, prim art, mesh art... let the audience enjoy and define what is art by their virtual feet and perhaps wallets (tip jars).  I would like to see more inclusiveness, not less, and while I'm not particularly interested in fairy mushroom sims, perhaps others are. But at some point, someone needs to say yes and someone needs to say no. Unless you let absolutely everything in, someone is going to be pissed off.

I think as we've discussed, new artists should be encouraged, and all things being equal given the nudge, but the work should dictate the inclusion, not the artist.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Seicher Rae
to remove the million quotation marks I tossed about with abandon

[Aemeth Lysette]

12 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

This one is on me, not you or anyone else. To me, it's like accepting charity. I can't do it that way. It just feels wrong to me. 

If you think about it, a grant is charity anyway. If you didn't come up with it and someone else is hosting you, it's charity. So in that regard, you can procure your own land grant anywhere.

One thing you can do is fundraise for your project. Sell some prints of your designs, and state that the proceeds will go to creating a temporary art experience project that's like a cool walking simulator (a walking simulator is a game where you walk through and enjoy the build itself, and it has an overarching theme). Then just keep that project going til the rent runs out. Host some parties on it, fundraise for the next one... voila.

[Selene Gregoire]

Without going into reasons that are personal...you have to have money to make any money. I don't have any money. I don't have any means of getting any money any time soon.

It is that cut and dried.

[Zeta Vandyke]

IMO it should not be up to LL to invest in art/artists. I would rather see them investing (time and money) in better performance, lower land tier and things like that affecting everyone, and not just people who create "art". 

If someone loves to create art installations and someone else loves to create beautiful landscapes. Why would the first get to do it for cheaper or free, while the other has to pay at full, while both their works can be equally enjoyable for other residents?

Very much agree on what Prokofy Neva stated above. If an artist is relevant and appreciated enough they can find ways to support themselves. Sell their work and designs for example, add rentals, or whatever everyone else has to do to support their SL hobby. Or just accept that their recreational past time will cost them money, like it does to so many.

[kiramanell]

3 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

I agree that the art produced is more important than the artist who produced it, and it should be for any LEA that goes forward.

Good luck to any who want to decide what is art. There's been debate about is it art? or is it craft? probably since the first person traced her hand on a cave wall. When I was taking both fine and applied art classes in university, there was that distinction. Illustration was a craft, not art! Painting was art, but photography was still if-y, especially if there were a lot of dark room modifications. There's creativity in a lot of things, I'm not sure there is the same amount of art. I personally shudder at everything is art because I think that ultimately reduces down to nothing is art. But it is difficult to run a program based on I know it when I see it. The areas in RL where I can sit and absorb art for hours on end may be the exact same areas where people rush through to get to something better, and there are certainly gallery and museum exhibits where I question the sanity of whoever allowed that stupid thing in, while obviously it was deemed worthy to be shown.

Perhaps there can be different segments of art at LEA. Sims dedicated to decorative art (which would include those fairy mushrooms!), performance art, audio art, prim art, mesh art... let the audience enjoy and define what is art by their virtual feet and perhaps wallets (tip jars).  I would like to see more inclusiveness, not less, and while I'm not particularly interested in fairy mushroom sims, perhaps others are. But at some point, someone needs to say yes and someone needs to say no. Unless you let absolutely everything in, someone is going to be pissed off.

I think as we've discussed, new artists should be encouraged, and all things being equal given the nudge, but the work should dictate the inclusion, not the artist.

 

^^ Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Selene Gregoire]

48 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

If an artist is relevant and appreciated enough

That pretty much leaves me out since I'm neither relevant nor appreciated in the "art world". You could say I'm a complete unknown.

[Qie Niangao]

52 minutes ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

IMO it should not be up to LL to invest in art/artists.

There's likely some marketing value in SL having art content. There may be more marketing value in SL being seen as a good place to do art. Probably the Lab could do better at actually reaping that marketing value.

But Marketing is a black box to me and I have no idea whether there's return on the Lab's arts programs. I don't think it's very expensive to leave some regions on the map for artist use, as long at they don't need to invest much more employee time beyond that.

In Sansar, presumably as a marketing initiative, the Lab is investing time and effort to promote cultural applications. Well, okay, comedy nights and a concert, but that's "cultural" enough I suppose.

(Free association: There's a lot of talk about how decrepit all the software is that runs Second Life. I wonder if decade-old Marketing initiatives, too, need updating or even blank-sheet redesign. In both software and business, it's easy to overlook dependencies that come unravelled with a gentle tug.)

[kiramanell]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

There's likely some marketing value in SL having art content.

 

Yes. Although difficult to quantify exactly (but LL's marketing bean-counters probaby can), associating yourself with major things humans do (like art) probably doesn't hurt, in terms of attracting ppl. Just hope they won't think to shift to Sansar for that.