Re: Gacha Missing and EMPTY BOXES....

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

If you Google Gashapon, some of the machines have pictures while others are just items in a capsule with no picture up top.  I looked at a close-up of some of the capsules and not all capsules are somewhat transparent, some capsules you cannot see through them what is inside.  But, still there is no clear one way to have a Gashapon machine, some have pictures, others don't so I don't see them quite as gumball machines except for some which have all the same like shoes and the rare may be the black or the brown.  I buy second-hand anyways.  I'm not a machine player.  

 

I don't need to google it. There are reference links at the bottom of every wiki page. I've already looked into the history of both American and Japanese VENDING MACHINES back when the controversy first got started in 2017/8. I've already done the research and it wasn't just one or two articles I read. 

No one said they were gumball machines. If you are being intentionally obtuse, please, stop. 

 

[Finite]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

People insist on source links and when those links are provided, they don't even bother to read them. 🙄

 

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Interesting.

Studying Gacha Progression What is “gacha” and how does it differ from lootboxes?

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/492272/gacha-vs-loot-boxes

https://www.giantbomb.com/gacha-system/3015-8997/forums/are-gacha-systems-loot-boxes-wiki-focused-1828542/

Probably because the links you provided are forums just like the one we are chatting on. Do you read your own "sources"?

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

 

Probably because the links you provided are forums just like the one we are chatting on. Do you read your own "sources"?

I knew exactly what I was posting. The opinions of gamers.

[FairreLilette]

5 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

American and Japanese VENDING MACHINES back when the controversy first got started in 2017/8. I've already done the research and it wasn't just one or two articles I read. 

Well, I don't see what lootboxes and Gachas have to do with vending machines as we having vending machines for snacks and drinks as well as if you go to a laundromat there are vending machines for soap, etc.  

I don't know what you are going on and on about regarding vending machines.

What is in question is Gashapon which in English is called a "gacha game", sometimes for collectibles (SL), other times for collectibles in RL and other times in real life for a hidden gamble of complete unknowns.

[Finite]

7 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I knew exactly what I was posting. The opinions of gamers.

Gamers in an MMO would have a differing opinion considering gachas are pay to win in the type of games they play. It's not the same gacha in SL. Since there's no winning to advance in the game. It's just a different way of buying the same things you do.

It's kind of like asking a pro poker player what he thinks about card games then using that statement in an discussion about go-fish or UNO.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, I don't see what lootboxes and Gachas have to do with vending machines as we having vending machines for snacks and drinks as well as if you go to a laundromat there are vending machines for soap, etc.  

I don't know what you are going on and on about regarding vending machines.

What is in question is Gashapon which in English is called a "gacha game", sometimes for collectibles (SL), other times for collectibles in RL and other times in real life for a hidden gamble of complete unknowns.

The machines they come out of in real life are vending machines. That's why the gacha machines in SL look like vending machines. Because the machines that dispense the gachas are vending machines.

The question is, should gachas be considered a type of gambling by law? The answer is not up to us to determine. As I have said before that is up to the legislature. In MY opinion, the answer is yes. Because you are still taking a chance that you won't get what you are paying for and some people are not able to stop themselves.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

Gamers in an MMO would have a differing opinion considering gachas are pay to win in the type of games they play. It's not the same gacha in SL. Since there's no winning to advance in the game. It's just a different way of buying the same things you do.

It's kind of like asking a pro poker player what he thinks about card games then using that statement in an discussion about go-fish or UNO.

I disagree. It's getting a different view point from people who do have something in common with many in SL. They all play games that have lootboxes/gachas.

And why wouldn't I ask the poker player what he thinks of other card games? He might actually like to play something different for a change or not even play cards at all! ☺️

[RunawayBunny]

10 minutes ago, Finite said:

Gamers in an MMO would have a differing opinion considering gachas are pay to win in the type of games they play. It's not the same gacha in SL.

Not ture you may play gacha-like game in MMO(RPG) get a decorative item it has no game benefits or progression bonus.. yet considered rare but you will most likely get a common decoration which also has no benefit just a decoration.

Pay 2 Win usually refers a player who have advantage against other players with purchased items or bonuses. Decoration (which have no bonus advantage or progression advantage) items not considered pay 2 win.

Edited March 5, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

The machines they come out of in real life are vending machines. That's why the gacha machines in SL look like vending machines. Because the machines that dispense the gachas are vending machines.

The question is, should gachas be considered a type of gambling by law? The answer is not up to us to determine. As I have said before that is up to the legislature. In MY opinion, the answer is yes. Because you are still taking a chance that you won't get what you are paying for and some people are not able to stop themselves.

Yes, but the machine maker or how it got started is irrelevant.  

And, it's really Gashapons that are in question.

I'd have to see a wording of the bill and if they even have a legal definition of what a Gashapon or "Gacha" (English nickname) as well as lootbox is defined as because I'd like to know.

I also did not read your links yet because I'm having coffee and now breakfast.  You have to give people time to read.

First, I wanted to establish what is the legal definition of Gacha because I was getting it's randomized responses.  Plus, there is the pay to win and the progression thing, both of which SL doesn't have.  So, it's not all cut and dried yet.

But, I've also said if laws change, they change.  

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, but the machine maker or how it got started is irrelevant.  

And, it's really Gashapons that are in question.

I'd have to see a wording of the bill and if they even have a legal definition of what a Gashapon or "Gacha" (English nickname) as well as lootbox is defined as because I'd like to know.

I also did not read your links yet because I'm having coffee and now breakfast.  You have to give people time to read.

First, I wanted to establish what is the legal definition of Gacha because I was getting it's randomized responses.  Plus, there is the pay to win and the progression thing, both of which SL doesn't have.  So, it's not all cut and dried yet.

But, I've also said if laws change, they change.  

No, history is NOT irrelevant when it comes to legislature. Legislature is based on events that occurred in the past.

If you are a day behind on your reading why are you trying to discuss something you have yet to read up on? Wouldn't it be less confusing to do the reading first and then ask questions about what you don't understand?

[Finite]

Just now, RunawayBunny said:

Not ture you may play gacha-like game in MMO(RPG) get a decorative item it has no game benefits or progression bonus.. yet considered rare but you will most likely get a common decoration which also has no benefit just a decoration.

Yes and those types of purchases aren't the pay to win ones people crow about in gaming forums in relation to gacha or loot boxes. Again using irrelevance as an argument... Me buying a mount in WoW is not pay to win. Even If I was paying for a chance at the mount it's still not pay to win. Since I do not need the mount to advance in the game. Me purchasing a bunch of void stones in  Raid Shadow Legends for a chance to get a Maneater card so that I can go no-killer on Clan Boss. Is pay to win. Me playing gacha in SL to complete a set for something I do not NEED but only WANT not pay to win.

I feel like a lot of these arguments are based on a situation or situations in SL where you saw something you wanted and got upset that you had to play a game to get said item. So you google the term "Gacha" and point to any negative reference to support your anger. Even though those references have no relation to SL gacha. Other than the fact they use the same term "gacha".

[FairreLilette]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

No, history is NOT irrelevant when it comes to legislature. Legislature is based on events that occurred in the past.

If you are a day behind on your reading why are you trying to discuss something you have yet to read up on? Wouldn't it be less confusing to do the reading first and then ask questions about what you don't understand?

Well, if you knew then why didn't you bring Gashapon's to the table here.  No one did but me but that is basically what Gacha's are - the Gashapon's that have a picture I'd gather because there are Gashapon games that show no picture.  Now the Gashapon games that have no picture and it's just randomized stuff could be older and are no longer allowed.  I don't know all the specifics here.

But, as far as Gashapons and gambling and being illegal - for adults I'd say no, for minors I'd say yes.

[RunawayBunny]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

Me playing gacha in SL to complete a set for something I do not NEED but only WANT not pay to win.

SL cannot be pay to win because there is nothing to win

4 minutes ago, Finite said:

feel like a lot of these arguments are based on a situation or situations in SL where you saw something you wanted and got upset that you had to play a game to get said item.

Not true I will never play those games again I did once.. I know I have weakness for gambling, I can easily become addicted to it.

No matter how pretty or cool looking creation they made, disappointment (and overall bad feeling) after many failure makes it worthless IMO.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, if you knew then why didn't you bring Gashapon's to the table here.  No one did but me but that is basically what Gacha's are - the Gashapon's that have a picture I'd gather because there are Gashapon games that show no picture.  Now the Gashapon games that have no picture and it's just randomized stuff could be older and are no longer allowed.  I don't know all the specifics here.

But, as far as Gashapons and gambling and being illegal - for adults I'd say no, for minors I'd say yes.

Because gashapons are Japanese and I don't live in Japan. Those machines are not in the US where LL's domicile is located. LL has to comply with US laws first, then state. Everything else comes after. 

Regardless of whether anyone here wants to admit to it or not, experts in psychology and psychiatry will tell you that gambling is additive and that gashapons are gambling. It's not good for anyone.

 

[FairreLilette]

11 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Because gashapons are Japanese and I don't live in Japan. Those machines are not in the US where LL's domicile is located. 

That is how the English word "Gacha" got it's name though from the Gashapons.  Now older Gashapons could have been all encapsulated, hidden and no picture.  It looks to me like modern day Gashapons have a picture similar to a SL Gacha.  That is all I am saying.  I wanted to determine how is a Gacha similar to a loot box because reading about loot boxes they have different kinds such as pay to win, pay to progress, etc, which sounds like Las Vegas.

As far as gambling, not all people are addicted.  Just like with shopping, not all people are addicted.  But shopping addiction without even any Gachas involved is a known addiction.  Do we all stop shopping?  

I am not for more Puritanical laws for adults.  Minors is always a gray area but if a parent or an aunt give a child two dollars to play whatever Gashapon machine they wanted to in real life and get a toy, I don't see the harm in it.  The child gets a toy they may or may not like or they may trade.  In real life, I think it would be under adult supervision like most Arcades are.  I don't see the big deal really.  

I don't like gambling so I hardly ever go as I'd rather do something else.  But, the few times I have gone I took my winnings and went antique shopping and perhaps out to eat or a show.  I just don't care for gambling.  It does not addict everyone.  But, some of this still has gray areas such as pay to win and progression, that's Las Vegas stuff.  

[Finite]

15 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

SL cannot be pay to win because there is nothing to win

Not true I will never play those games again I did once.. I know I have weakness for gambling, I can easily become addicted to it.

No matter how pretty or cool looking creation they made, disappointment (and overall bad feeling) after many failure makes it worthless IMO.

I agree, you shouldn't play gacha if that's the direction where your mindset goes.

11 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Regardless of whether anyone here wants to admit to it or not, experts in psychology and psychiatry will tell you that gambling is additive and that gashapons are gambling. It's not good for anyone.

Yes gambling is bad. 

Gacha isn't gambling. If you see one item in the gacha that you want and everything else is trash to you then yes your ARE gambling to get that one item. But you made that decision yourself. It's not how the game is intended. And if you have a bad history with gambling then no, you probably should stay clear of gacha or really anything that has a chance element to it. But your personal experience doesn't have an effect on how I view the game. To me, it's just a fun, interactive way to buy things. And the things I don't want (usually duplicates) I can put up on my MP store or trade with other people. Which is also fun to me.

[Rowan Amore]

A vending machine would be all encompassing and again, you're arguing semantics.  You put money in, something comes out.

It's not a hard concept to grasp ffs.

vending machine. n. (General Engineering) a machine that automatically dispenses consumer goods

25 minutes ago, Finite said:

It's not how the game is intended

It most certainly is exactly how the game is intended in SL.  Otherwise, they would just sell outright.  For you it's fun.  For others, it IS an addiction.  No matter how you want to phrase it or justify it, it's still a gamble getting the one thing you might want so in the basic sense of the word, it is gambling.

ETA:  Only recently have they given the option to buy the fatpacks.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[RunawayBunny]

23 minutes ago, Finite said:

But your personal experience doesn't have an effect on how I view the game.

It summaries everything you are trying to say. Drugs also fun but illegal for a reason (addiction) but still some people will sell it because of money.. and some people will use addictive marketing strategies for same reason, money.

I am glad you are not vulnerable to gambling. It is really bad trait to have.

This topic going towards personal opinions and I gave my personal opinion I guess there is not much to discuss about it we will wait and see how it will affect laws multiple governments already working on it.

[Finite]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

 

It most certainly is exactly how the game is intended in SL.  Otherwise, they would just sell outright.  For you it's fun.  For others, it IS an addiction.  No matter how you want to phrase it or justify it, it's still a gamble getting the one thing you might want so in the basic sense of the word, it is gambling.

 

I love how people can argue for the sake of arguing while simultaneously agreeing with a statement.

28 minutes ago, Finite said:

If you see one item in the gacha that you want and everything else is trash to you then yes your ARE gambling to get that one item. 

Gotta love the forums.

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

I love how people can argue for the sake of arguing while simultaneously agreeing with a statement.

Around here, arguing is a hardcore sport and some people just gotta win.

[RunawayBunny]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

Around here, arguing is a hardcore sport and some people just gotta win.

People giving their personal opinion and trying to explain their opinions based on experience or knowledge..

It is a good thing in my country it is forbidden to discuss many subjects you will be immediately oppressed by strange society trapped in their own bubble... and it didn't end good for our society everyone expected to have same mindset.

[Rowan Amore]

14 minutes ago, Finite said:

I love how people can argue for the sake of arguing while simultaneously agreeing with a statement.

Gotta love the forums.

No, I was arguing that you said it wasn't how the game was intended.  The rest of the explanation is to point out that regardless of how you play, it's still gambling.  Whether you play once or 1000 times makes no difference.  To you, it doesn't seem like gambling yet that doesn't change the fact that it is.

 

[Rowan Amore]

[Finite]

25 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

it's still a gamble getting the one thing you might want so in the basic sense of the word, it is gambling.

 

Are we discussing the literal, "basic" sense of the word? Or the legal? I mean I woke up today and gambled that a bowl a cereal would tie me over instead of a full bacon and eggs breakfast. I also gambled that one shot of espresso would do instead of two. Should these be outlawed?

Also, if it is just one item out of the whole gacha that you are interested in then why would you gamble instead of buying it from the Marketplace? That seems way more logical than trying to get this one item. Is gacha meant to protect you from yourself or just be a game?

Edited March 5, 2021 by Finite

[Rufferta]

An interesting thread. I would like to add:

In the US there is a lively market selling 'subscription boxes'. The idea is that the buyer gets a 'curated' box which is guaranteed to be worth more than you paid for it. The boxes continue to come on a regular basis until you cancel your subscription.

There are also 'mystery boxes' which are a one-time thing. I love watching UTube 'unboxing' videos...

I believe that the appeal of mystery boxes and subscription boxes is the anticipation and the fun of getting a 'gift' in the mail.

In SL the period of anticipation when you 'pull' a gatcha lever is shorter, but the bursts of good feeling you get when you 'win' a rare makes up for the disappointment of getting a common. Yes, this can become addictive.

---

In Tofalar, near the southern edge of the region, there is a hut with a lot of information about gachas.

---

If SL had "Non Sequitur" as a last name, I'd buy it.