Loot Boxes Revisited

[So Whimsy]

20 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

Grumbling as she feels dragged into an endless argument about something she doesn't really care about, /me says "The difference between SL and most MMoRPGs  is there is no such thing as advancing game play. There's no score in SL You don't win or lose SL.  So that Belgian law has no bearing on SL."

The point of this thread and ensuing discussion flew so high above your head it's way past the stratosphere

Here's a tip, nothing, nothing at all in this thread has anything to do with the differences between SL and an mmorpg. That's never been up for debate, but thank you for the giggle!

Here's another tip, the belgian law has not outlawed lootboxes because of the environment they're in. But hey, you probably won't read this either and just up your postcount by writing posts that are so utterly left field I think you're in the wrong forum alltogether lol.

[Selene Gregoire]

6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I don't believe i said all... I listed the ones that you have to use USD to buy them. However, there is NO way to pay a gatcha machine in SL directly with USD. You MUST convert it to $L. 

The point is, whether they are paid for directly with real money or indirectly by purchasing with ingame currency (which is paid for with real money), has no bearing on whether or not SL gachas are considered lootboxes by law.

 

[So Whimsy]

Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

The point is, whether they are paid for directly with real money or indirectly by purchasing with ingame currency (which is paid for with real money), has no bearing on whether or not SL gachas are considered lootboxes by law.

 

That's what I told him earlier in this thread, my fingers are crossed that he'll understand it better hearing it from you. Sometimes I think I speak some long dead language no one speaks anymore.

[kali Wylder]

7 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

The point of this thread and ensuing discussion flew so high above your head it's way past the stratosphere

Here's a tip, nothing, nothing at all in this thread has anything to do with the differences between SL and an mmorpg. That's never been up for debate, but thank you for the giggle!

Here's another tip, the belgian law has not outlawed lootboxes because of the environment they're in. But hey, you probably won't read this either and just up your postcount by writing posts that are so utterly left field I think you're in the wrong forum alltogether lol.

I read it.  You are probably right as I did not read the whole thread but I did see the thing about advancing game play in there somewhere. I have no interest in my post count, why should I? Or is that just another put down?

[So Whimsy]

Just now, kali Wylder said:

I read it.  You are probably right as I did not read the whole thread but I did see the thing about advancing game play in there somewhere. I have no interest in my post count, why should I? Or is that just another put down?

Nothing I wrote was a put down but written in jest asI was honestly amused (not in the bad way). A post so out of left field isn't annoying or upsetting, it's hilarious and I do apologize for tending to forget that so much gets lost not only in translation but also by writing text without hearing the tone of voice or seeing the face.

If you're bored you should actually read what it's all about and then re-read your post, I think you might end up giggling, too.

 

[Desudesudesuka]

Artificial scarcity is an enemy we should not have to deal with in a system where data can just have copy/mod permissions and let people mod their avatars, or have some degree of certainty in buying something without missing out for a very inexcusable reason.

Much like no-modify items, no-copy items are deleterious to lasting SL gameplay. I want to say every user would prefer to be able to copy items they have and modify them without losing the original or changes to it. Gacha will entertain the gambling addicts panning for fool's gold, but the rest of us are left with useless little stones coming mainly in colours meant to be bland or offensive. The community is divided on this and there are those of us actually boycotting gacha, which is a sign to me something is majorly wrong with it. It would be interesting to see a poll on how many people gamble vs how many do or do not buy the resales. I don't even buy resales.

[Selene Gregoire]

15 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

That's what I told him earlier in this thread, my fingers are crossed that he'll understand it better hearing it from you. Sometimes I think I speak some long dead language no one speaks anymore.

I know the feeling. 

While my native language isn't dead, it is headed that way. 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

9 hours ago, Fionalein said:

It isn't already happening? Take a compu gacha with 24 pieces, 2 pieces are "rare" and "rare rate" is 1 out of 10....

common chance = (1/22)*(9/10) = 0.041

rare chance = (1/2)*(1/10) =0.05

The rare is the actually most likely price... people will quite often get them and try playing to complete the set after they "already" got "the rares"

My point is that it's not always specified 80% of the gatcha machines i've seen only tell you that this, or that is "rare" but not "how rare" exactly.

And even if it's specified, the script can literally be doing anything under the hood, such as favoring group members, or giving rares to specific users, or waiting for other specific events in an effort to maximize the amount of plays per user.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

6 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Its been a year, they should have added it in by now. If they thought they were the same or even cared. 

Why is it a "Gacha problem?" What is the problem with them? If you don't like them, dont play them.  End of problem. 

By your own logic then ripping game content to sell in SL must be legal since so many marketplace sellers are getting away with it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

20 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The point is, whether they are paid for directly with real money or indirectly by purchasing with ingame currency (which is paid for with real money), has no bearing on whether or not SL gachas are considered lootboxes by law.

 

Please list the aplicable laww that says gachas and lootboxes are the same. If they were the same then the countries that have outlawed Lootboxes would have done the same with gachas, be they virtual or the ones in stores. 

18 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

That's what I told him earlier in this thread, my fingers are crossed that he'll understand it better hearing it from you. Sometimes I think I speak some long dead language no one speaks anymore.

Ah, the old, I'm wrong because you say so line. Because you say they are the same I must be wrong in saying they are different. 

Just now, Kyrah Abattoir said:

By your own logic then ripping game content to sell in SL must be legal since so many marketplace sellers are getting away with it.

No, ripping game content is illegal as it breaks many copyright laws. There are no laws against reselling gachas on the MP. Where did you even get that idea from anything i posted? Talk about a post from left field. Selling gahca either inworld or on the MP isnt "getting away with" anything, its completely legal.

[Selene Gregoire]

As a long time SL consumer, there is something I need to get off my chest and this is directed mainly at the content creators and any of them who might want a new customer.

I can live with no transfer because I do understand the reasoning and logic behind it. The only gripe I have about it is not being able to share an item with an alt. It isn't something I would make a habit of doing (that's just me) but there are times when a very lovely outfit would look just as well (if not better) on one of my alts and I just can't afford to buy another one or two. Real money gets tighter with each passing year.

I can sort of live with no modify. I do understand that some things, like a specialized script, shouldn't be altered. On the other hand, there are those of us who are proficient enough in such things. Which leads me to...

no copy. The one thing I absolutely refuse to do is pay for an item that is no copy. If the item is mod it makes zero sense for it to be no copy. It makes zero sense when something happens on LL's end and you lose that item and are either stuck with paying for another one, having to hunt down a re-delivery kiosk or give it up to being lost in the ether.

This is just me, sticking to my "buy only those things which are copy/mod/no trans or full perms". I've come a long way from "make all the things NO PERMS!" as I believed, 14 years ago, was only right and proper. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Here's the main issue. Second Life is not considered a game. All of these laws and regulations are aimed at games. 

"Minnesota introduced a bill in April 2018 that would prohibit sale of games with loot-box systems to children under 18 years of age, and require specific labelling on these games to alert consumers to the loot-box system."

"The Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB), like PEGI, provides voluntary video game content ratings for games in the United States. ESRB does not consider loot boxes as a form of gambling, and will not rate such games with their "Real Gambling" content descriptions. ESRB considers that loot boxes are equivalent to collectible card game booster packs, and that the player is always receiving something of value with opening a loot-box purchase, even if it is not something the player desires. The Board further stated that games that are labelled with "Real Gambling" will likely be then rated "A-O" (Adults Only), to comply with gambling laws; retailers typically do not stock such games, and would thus harm a publisher."

The ESRB has no rating for Second Life. None. They do not consider SL a game. Therefore laws that apply to games in the US do not apply to SL. Until such time as SL is considered a game by the powers that be, those laws wont apply. 

If gachas are actually gambling they would have been caught up in the huge gambling round up and regulation that happened a few years ago. LL did not do such as they are not considered gambling. 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

Nope, mandoling box - lute boxes loot different and are usually way more expensive - mine cost 300€ you get a lot of lootboxes for a lute box

Then google search failed. Those were supposedly lute cases for sale currently.

[So Whimsy]

Just now, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Here's the main issue. Second Life is not considered a game. All of these laws and regulations are aimed at games.

No. They're aimed at the function of lootboxes which is the same function that gacha's have. Games are just the vehicle and where they appear. It's not the deciding factor of why they were outlawed. Stop being obtuse holy crap.

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Syn Anatine

[Selene Gregoire]

15 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Please list the aplicable laww that says gachas and lootboxes are the same. If they were the same then the countries that have outlawed Lootboxes would have done the same with gachas, be they virtual or the ones in stores. 

You're reading a bit too much into my words there. I made (and make) no claim of any law that makes that distinction.

There may not be any law in any country at present that does but that does not mean it won't happen in the future. The past is full of such instances where laws have been ratified and then later amended. I don't know of any country where this hasn't happened.

[Desudesudesuka]

Not the same? It's literally a case of a tidal wave vs a tsunami. Gacha is essentially a lootbox with 1 item. Gacha itself is a thing, and a word that's primarily found in Asian markets, but lootboxes are effectively the western equivalent. If they were not the same companies would just be adding gacha to their games to circumvent anti-lootbox laws. Dota 2 and CSGO and TF2 all use what are definitely gacha if you look at how they work, but those are classed as lootboxes. So dispensing with all the semantics that ignore cultural differences, this is just about banning all the lootboxes.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Desudesudesuka

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

No. They're aimed at the function of lootboxes which is the same function that gacha's have. Games are just the vehicle and where they appear. It's not the deciding factor of why they were outlawed. Stop being obtuse holy crap.

 

Try reading more than the first line.. The US doesnt consider them gambling. If they did they would have rounded them up in the gambling change that happened a few years ago.  Its not being obtuse, its called the law. If something is illegal in one format but another has no issues, then that other format is a different one. The LAWS being made about lootboxes all pertain to games. Try understanding the law and how it works. 

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You're reading a bit too much into my words there. I made (and make) no claim of any law that makes that distinction.

Actually you did. 

54 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The point is, whether they are paid for directly with real money or indirectly by purchasing with ingame currency (which is paid for with real money), has no bearing on whether or not SL gachas are considered lootboxes by law.

Which is where i asked what law... Lootbox laws pertain to games, there isn't a single government agency that considers SL a game. How would Lootbox game laws pertain to SL gachas? 

[Fionalein]

4 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Try reading more than the first line.. The US doesnt consider them gambling. If they did they would have rounded them up in the gambling change that happened a few years ago.  Its not being obtuse, its called the law. If something is illegal in one format but another has no issues, then that other format is a different one. The LAWS being made about lootboxes all pertain to games. Try understanding the law and how it works. 

OK, this leaves us with one question: Is SL a game? And no, drake neither your nor LL's opinion are relevant here ... we must ask: Is it a game by law?

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fionalein

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Just now, Fionalein said:

OK, this leaves us with one question: Is SL a game? And no, drake neither your nor LL's opinion are relevant here ... we must ak: Is it a game by law?

Did you miss my post from a few minutes ago? 

 

14 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

"The Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB), like PEGI, provides voluntary video game content ratings for games in the United States. ESRB does not consider loot boxes as a form of gambling, and will not rate such games with their "Real Gambling" content descriptions. ESRB considers that loot boxes are equivalent to collectible card game booster packs, and that the player is always receiving something of value with opening a loot-box purchase, even if it is not something the player desires. The Board further stated that games that are labelled with "Real Gambling" will likely be then rated "A-O" (Adults Only), to comply with gambling laws; retailers typically do not stock such games, and would thus harm a publisher."

The ESRB has no rating for Second Life. None. They do not consider SL a game. Therefore laws that apply to games in the US do not apply to SL. Until such time as SL is considered a game by the powers that be, those laws wont apply. 

The ESRb is the entity that decides what rating ALL games in the US get. All of them, PC, console, board games, everything. They have no rating for SL as they do not consider it a game. It was never marketed as such. It was never designed as such. It is a virtual world. 

[Selene Gregoire]

8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Actually you did. 

You're reading what I said wrong. Granted, I should have left "by law" off the end of that sentence. It's a habit I've been trying to break.

 

ETA: Read through the links I posted earlier. That should tell you why I've said the things I have.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Kyrah Abattoir]

4 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The ESRb is the entity that decides what rating ALL games in the US get. All of them, PC, console, board games, everything. They have no rating for SL as they do not consider it a game. It was never marketed as such. It was never designed as such. It is a virtual world.

The ESRB typically doesn't rate the online part of games, for good reasons.

[Fionalein]

8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Did you miss my post from a few minutes ago? 

 

The ESRb is the entity that decides what rating ALL games in the US get. All of them, PC, console, board games, everything. They have no rating for SL as they do not consider it a game. It was never marketed as such. It was never designed as such. It is a virtual world. 

The law does not care for the opinion of a private organisation...  well at least not in civilized countries. You brought up the law, now please dont mix it up with self-regulatory quasi-laws.

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fionalein

[Selene Gregoire]

Quote

Are all games and apps required to have a rating?

The rating system is voluntary, although virtually all video games that are sold at retail or downloaded to a game system in the U.S. and Canada are rated by the ESRB. Many U.S. retailers, including most major chains, have policies to only stock or sell games that carry an ESRB rating, and console manufacturers require games that are published on their systems in the U.S. and Canada to be rated by ESRB.

Quote

How was the rating system created?

The ESRB rating system was devised in 1994 after consulting a wide range of child development and academic experts, analyzing other rating systems and conducting nationwide research with parents. ESRB found that what parents really want from a rating system is both age-based categories and, equally if not more importantly, concise and impartial information regarding content. Parents felt strongly that a rating system should inform and suggest, not prohibit, and should reflect the product overall rather than quantifying every instance of potentially objectionable content.

Today game consumers play games on a variety of platforms and devices, and parental concerns go well beyond content to include other elements like user interactions or the sharing of a user's location. In fact, parents today tend to place equal importance on upfront guidance about interactive elements as they do the actual content in a game.

With this philosophy in mind, the ESRB administers a three-part system that includes Rating Categories, Content Descriptors and Interactive Elements.

Quote

Why does the ESRB rate apps?

Like video games, apps are a form of interactive digital product that may be intended for users of different ages. The ESRB rating system has established itself as a familiar, reliable means for parents to gauge the suitability of games for their children, and with the recent explosion of apps there are several mobile and online storefronts that have opted to adopt the ESRB rating system for that reason. Additionally, since a game is often made available on many different platforms - including in the form of an app for various mobile devices - consumers benefit from having a consistent rating standard that applies across the board.

 

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.aspx#2

Note that the first quote says "virtually all" and not "all". That means that not all video games or apps that are sold are rated by the ESRB.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

The law does not care for the opinion of a private organisation...  well at least not in civilized countries. You brought up the law, now please dont mix it up with self-regulatory quasi-laws.

 

Actually, the law in the US does care. Anyone under 18 can not buy a game rated M by that private organization. 

If gahcas were such a huge problem as the people in this thread make them out to be, Belgium would NOT have left them out. 

[Selene Gregoire]

Just now, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Belgium would NOT have left them out. 

Can you back that statement up with legal documentation?