Loot Boxes Revisited

[Prokofy Neva]

So here we go with the Loot Boxes again.

There's been a lot of speculation that the law *in one country* (Belgium) against loo tboxes and possible legislation in other countries will spell the end of gachas.

I don't think so. Not in the US, anyway.

First of all, after reading the Verge piece which references a few American congress people I think -- not likely. Gaming companies have powerful lobbyists and they are not likely to let this by.

There are also some important ways that gatchas are different than lootboxes, namely:

1. You must use "game currency" to buy them -- the "limited license to buy content" inworld. To be sure, those Linden dollars are purchased with real money, but there isn't a direct tie-in as you buy batches of dollars to spend inworld. 

2. The amounts in the microtransactions are very small -- not US $30 for a "loot box" but perhaps less than a penny for a single gatcha. Even if someone buys 25 to get the special VIP ward or whatever, they still aren't going to usually spend more than about US $10.

3. There is no game play, so the gatchas are not required for "game play".

4. The gambling in gatchas arguably comes not from the randomness per se, but the possibility of getting a rare and then being able to sell that -- perhaps for as much as $10, or perhaps even $20 if you have a whole set, but this is rare. Then -- again -- you'd have to show that the seller of these rares cashed out their money into real dollars.

Anyone who has played and sold gatchas knows that you never break even and overall, you lose, and don't make a profit. That's another factor.

So I think gatchas are here to stay.

[CheriColette]

At least in SL people can sell on or swap gatcha items 

[Zeta Vandyke]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So here we go with the Loot Boxes again.

There's been a lot of speculation that the law *in one country* (Belgium) against loo tboxes and possible legislation in other countries will spell the end of gachas.

I don't think so. Not in the US, anyway.

First of all, after reading the Verge piece which references a few American congress people I think -- not likely. Gaming companies have powerful lobbyists and they are not likely to let this by.

There are also some important ways that gatchas are different than lootboxes, namely:

1. You must use "game currency" to buy them -- the "limited license to buy content" inworld. To be sure, those Linden dollars are purchased with real money, but there isn't a direct tie-in as you buy batches of dollars to spend inworld. 

2. The amounts in the microtransactions are very small -- not US $30 for a "loot box" but perhaps less than a penny for a single gatcha. Even if someone buys 25 to get the special VIP ward or whatever, they still aren't going to usually spend more than about US $10.

3. There is no game play, so the gatchas are not required for "game play".

4. The gambling in gatchas arguably comes not from the randomness per se, but the possibility of getting a rare and then being able to sell that -- perhaps for as much as $10, or perhaps even $20 if you have a whole set, but this is rare. Then -- again -- you'd have to show that the seller of these rares cashed out their money into real dollars.

Anyone who has played and sold gatchas knows that you never break even and overall, you lose, and don't make a profit. That's another factor.

So I think gatchas are here to stay.

Basically most those points also count for poker played in SL with L$, still that got banned just as easy.

Gatchas are like fruit machines with a guaranteed price. And the more you spend in it, the bigger chance of a more worthy price. Hard to not see it as gambling.

Not that I want it banned. I wish poker came back too, was so much fun. Oh, and Belgium does not exist.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

The difference from gambling I think is,you are getting something for your money where gambling is most times win or lose..

You are getting either something you can use or something you can sell or trade with  others to complete each others sets..

Heck you can even open a gacha store that sells the pieces that people may have not gotten or the one piece they only want so they don't have to play gachas..

 

I think gambling you are stuck with the results where with gachas,you're not..

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Ceka Cianci

[So Whimsy]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The difference from gambling I think is,you are getting something for your money where gambling is most times win or lose..

That is not a difference but merely another form of gambling. It doesn't matter if its win/loose or win/get common prize you don't want.

I read this topic on another forum, and to me its quite clear. Gacha's are gambling, no matter how much some people try to deny it whether because they enjoy playing the gacha's or they're creators benefiting off of them.

See it like this. You come across a gacha machine, 10 commons, 1 amazing rare you *really* want. You have 1000L in your pocket. You check the MP and that rare goes for a minimum of 1500L. So you decide to try your luck (which is the sugarcoated term of 'you take that gamble'). The outcome doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that people put money into the machine wanting a certain item and they gamble with their Linden that have RL money value to get it.

Personally I do like Gacha's but I remember the time before them quite well, merchants put their best items in their stores not gacha machines. You didn't have to gamble to get the thing you want or buy it for inflated prices from someone else on the mp, you could simply right click and buy. The novelty!

Nowadays a lot of merchants put their best items into Gacha's, don't release new products into their stores at nearly the rate they used to and most of us end up paying more for the items than if they had been a normal store release.

 

The worst gacha's are those where you need the rare for the other pieces to come together. This is most often seen in clothing gacha's, and to some lesser extend in home gachas were the home is the rare, although its much easier to make the decor/furniture work in other houses.

[chibiusa Ling]

52 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Nowadays a lot of merchants put their best items into Gacha's, don't release new products into their stores at nearly the rate they used to and most of us end up paying more for the items than if they had been a normal store release.

And that is the exact reason why I hate Gacha. It's nothing more or less than a money grab and the creators know it. They know people are addicted to playing them and will spend thousands trying to get the one they want where as before they could just buy it for maybe 300 linden as a normal release. I haven't purchased from a Gacha machine in a long time now and have no intention of ever doing so again.

[Zeta Vandyke]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The difference from gambling I think is,you are getting something for your money where gambling is most times win or lose..

You are getting either something you can use or something you can sell or trade with  others to complete each others sets..

Heck you can even open a gacha store that sells the pieces that people may have not gotten or the one piece they only want so they don't have to play gachas..

 

I think gambling you are stuck with the results where with gachas,you're not..

 

 

The ban however would be because of Gacha being Lootboxes. And they indeed are. With a lootbox you also pay and always get something, only you do not know what you get, and most of the time its useless and you need to keep spending money gambling to get the pieces that are wanted. In some games lootbox items are also tradable/sellable. Does not make them less lootbox.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Syn Anatine said:

That is not a difference but merely another form of gambling. It doesn't matter if its win/loose or win/get common prize you don't want.

I read this topic on another forum, and to me its quite clear. Gacha's are gambling, no matter how much some people try to deny it whether because they enjoy playing the gacha's or they're creators benefiting off of them.

See it like this. You come across a gacha machine, 10 commons, 1 amazing rare you *really* want. You have 1000L in your pocket. You check the MP and that rare goes for a minimum of 1500L. So you decide to try your luck (which is the sugarcoated term of 'you take that gamble'). The outcome doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that people put money into the machine wanting a certain item and they gamble with their Linden that have RL money value to get it.

Personally I do like Gacha's but I remember the time before them quite well, merchants put their best items in their stores not gacha machines. You didn't have to gamble to get the thing you want or buy it for inflated prices from someone else on the mp, you could simply right click and buy. The novelty!

Nowadays a lot of merchants put their best items into Gacha's, don't release new products into their stores at nearly the rate they used to and most of us end up paying more for the items than if they had been a normal store release.

 

The worst gacha's are those where you need the rare for the other pieces to come together. This is most often seen in clothing gacha's, and to some lesser extend in home gachas were the home is the rare, although its much easier to make the decor/furniture work in other houses.

The thing is,the person putting that rare up for 500 or 1500 is someone that could have been in the same shoes as the one with 1000 looking for the rare..

There is a certainty to a gacha that you will get an item of value and not, have a chance at an item of value..The only uncertainty is which one..

One of the three elements to make something gambling is, uncertainty..

Gambling is,you might have a chance of winning something of value for your money..

A Game of chance is placing a bet and having a chance,not a certainty at an item of value..

I don't think that because of a chance at a rare was thrown in the mix, that it turns the whole thing into gambling..just about every item in those gachas that go for 75$L is about what you would get for 75$L..

Being able to turn right around and sell or trade those 75$l items for profit,definitely adds value behind those items we don't want..Because a person that gets two rares could put one up for 500 or 1500 on the market place,or that skin they can't use for sale at 150 or trade it with someone for the one they want.

 

To be stuck with a no transfer item and stuck with a bunch of the same things that have no value that we can't use..I could see that as taking a chance..But we're getting an item of value every time.

 

To be honest,I'm not a real gacha  go getter or anything like that..they can stay or go and I wouldn't care really..It's just less to clog up my MP searches if they do go ..hehehehe

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Ceka Cianci

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The difference from gambling I think is,you are getting something for your money where gambling is most times win or lose..

"Loot boxes" always give you something. Still classified as gambling by multiple countries now. (Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, China, South Korea, Minnesota US)

Some games allow the contents of a loot box to be traded or sold directly for real money (particularly on Steam).

There are third-party sites that allow you to literally bid your loot in order to win something better (or nothing at all).

Edited February 21, 2019 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Basically most those points also count for poker played in SL with L$, still that got banned just as easy.

Gatchas are like fruit machines with a guaranteed price. And the more you spend in it, the bigger chance of a more worthy price. Hard to not see it as gambling.

Not that I want it banned. I wish poker came back too, was so much fun. Oh, and Belgium does not exist.

 

Theresa Tennyson reminds herself to keep checking for announcements for Opposite Day.

I assume poker in SL paid out in Lindens, which are directly convertible more-or-less on demand for real-world currency.

Gacha gives you an object that doesn't have a guaranteed price and isn't directly convertible.

[Catrie]

27 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Gacha gives you an object that doesn't have a guaranteed price and isn't directly convertible.

Emphasis is mine. well yes gachas do give out prizes that aren't directly convertible. they can be resold and that money is a convertible.  there are a lot of gachas out there that I would have bought, had I been able to buy one of the items directly. most of the time I won't bother playing a gacha instead I will go to the MP. which means the creator isn't getting the money, a third party is. I would rather give my money to the creator, who spent time and effort making the thing,than on a third party who just got a lucky pull.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Catrie

[Zeta Vandyke]

14 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Gacha gives you an object that doesn't have a guaranteed price and isn't directly convertible.

Maybe not directly, but you can sell the items you "win". Or you end up deleting them meaning the comparison with fruit machines that you lost your money by the game of chance.

But I agree with you on the poker comparison, might not have been the best one. For me poker is less gambling actually than Gacha, it does require actual skill, combined with luck of the draw, where Gacha is just throwing in money and randomly win or loose. And poker you play for a L$ pot that has been filled by the players, you are not funding a greedy creator. (small ante maybe for the organizing venue). 

[Blush Bravin]

So I guess gumball machines are lootboxes?

[Ceka Cianci]

30 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

"Loot boxes" always give you something. Still classified as gambling by multiple countries now. (Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, China, South Korea, Minnesota US)

Some games allow the contents of a loot box to be traded or sold directly for real money (particularly on Steam).

There are third-party sites that allow you to literally bid your loot in order to win something better (or nothing at all).

See,now I wonder how much of a difference that makes..Because one is where someone can't sell or trade the items and can make an item worthless and leave someone with something of no value at all, while the other where we can sell and trade items, valuable..

Gambling is,I might have a chance at winning something of value..Illegal gambling anyways..Where the legal other is a game of skill to win something of value..

I'm sure in the states it's gonna jump around on what is what..Some states will be stricter than other states..

 

I think what i need is a clear definition, where they say something like,having a guarantee of one of these items of value is gambling as long as the player is uncertain of which one it is, rather than a chance at something of value is gambling..

I've had lootboxes in other games and get stuck with duplicates and can't do anything with them because I can't sell or trade them..To me that's rolling the dice on lootbox to have a chance to win something..

If I can still do something with it,then it's still an item of value..

Every legal definition I'm finding shows gambling as, might have a chance to win something of value..

I guess that's where I'm getting locked up on Gachas,because I can still do something with those gachas duplicates to get the one I want or to put some lindens in my account..

 

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

6 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Every legal definition I'm finding shows gambling as, might have a chance to win something of value..

That's because technology has surpassed our old/current laws and social norms in many ways, not just in the definition of gambling.

8 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I'm sure in the states it's gonna jump around on what is what..Some states will be stricter than other states..

The US as a whole doesn't seem to be doing much regarding this subject, but Minnesota specifically has age restricted loot boxes from anyone under 18.

9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

See,now I wonder how much of a difference that makes..Because one is where someone can't sell or trade the items and can make an item worthless and leave someone with something of no value at all, while the other where we can sell and trade items, valuable..

This whole thing started from Star Wars Battlefront 2, which did not have trading or selling. Belgium required the loot boxes to be removed from the game to be compliant with their laws. China and SK have similarly strict laws and passed a new one specifically for "virtual tickets" aka loot boxes, chests, keys, etc.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

I have my own unique "test" for what is gambling and what isn't. I can't stand gambling, like the opposite of an addiction. I feel ill when I lose the money. I don't feel ill if I win, but I also don't risk it further for the sake of more. For awhile when I was living hand to mouth, I had a post office box in a place where vouchers for free lottery tickets came in the bulk advertising envelopes. A lot of those envelopes were thrown away unopened, which meant there were vouchers to be had if you were there on the right day Using a voucher to get a free lottery ticket didn't constitute gambling for me. Risking any money won did.

When a group of RL friends played poker on our game nights, they'd offer to all chip in with a small stake for me. It still made me queasy, so I'd just socialise and see to the snacks.

That's how my test works. Can I stand it? The only way I can stand a gacha is if it's a good price and I'd be happy with pretty much any of the commons. Even then, I'd much rather buy it on special. The rest of the time, gachas are gambling according to the Bitsy Test.

Case closed

 

[Selene Gregoire]

[BloodSlaughter]

8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So here we go with the Loot Boxes again.

There's been a lot of speculation that the law *in one country* (Belgium) against loo tboxes and possible legislation in other countries will spell the end of gachas.

I don't think so. Not in the US, anyway.

First of all, after reading the Verge piece which references a few American congress people I think -- not likely. Gaming companies have powerful lobbyists and they are not likely to let this by.

There are also some important ways that gatchas are different than lootboxes, namely:

1. You must use "game currency" to buy them -- the "limited license to buy content" inworld. To be sure, those Linden dollars are purchased with real money, but there isn't a direct tie-in as you buy batches of dollars to spend inworld. 

2. The amounts in the microtransactions are very small -- not US $30 for a "loot box" but perhaps less than a penny for a single gatcha. Even if someone buys 25 to get the special VIP ward or whatever, they still aren't going to usually spend more than about US $10.

3. There is no game play, so the gatchas are not required for "game play".

4. The gambling in gatchas arguably comes not from the randomness per se, but the possibility of getting a rare and then being able to sell that -- perhaps for as much as $10, or perhaps even $20 if you have a whole set, but this is rare. Then -- again -- you'd have to show that the seller of these rares cashed out their money into real dollars.

Anyone who has played and sold gatchas knows that you never break even and overall, you lose, and don't make a profit. That's another factor.

So I think gatchas are here to stay.

They wil stay until people that are scammed get legal actions, or simply stop to buy lootboxs

You forgot to mention that good companies like EA GAMES , that care a lot  about their own image removed ALL THEIR LOOTBOX SYSTEMS. They changed their economic system completly after Belgium announce.

 

Some other, UBISOFT made a very funny statement: "we sell lootbox because people are buying them"

 

That is absolutly right. All comes from people stupidity or addiction.

 

LOOTBOXs, gatchas, wil continue until people  stop to buy those, simple

You know what to do then, boycott them or they wil keep on spreading/scamming.

Ill add that i got great admiration concerning those companies such as EA GAMES that removed instantly their lootbox after the belgium announce they take care about their image.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by BloodSlaughter

[Janet Voxel]

When I spent 1200L total and still didn’t get the skin I wanted, I considered it gambling. It’s gambling.

That is all.

Well, no it’s not. Gatchas are kind of like slot machines, but more of a rip off. At least with a slot machine you know there’s a big chance you’re going to lose. With a gatcha, you lose in a different way. Some of the things in them have so many parts, the odds are stacked so far against you it doesn’t make any sense. The fact is some creators can set the odds of the machine and some of them set the odds so minutely that you’ll get a rare, you’re better off playing a slot machine.

Playing a gatcha where there are 15 different items, the normal colors are Rare and Ultra rare means even if you get the rare you still have 14 items of the same color to get before you complete the set. That means you lost before you even started playing. Game over man, game over.

I play them, but I have a set of rules I follow. If it has a bunch of little parts, it’s out. If it’s two items and a rare something with 15 different colors, I’ll do it, but only three plays. Hair is usually a go. Shoes are usually a go, unless they’re funky colors that only go with a certain outfit.

So some of the machines are more loose so to speak, but it’s still gambling. It’s a little more complicated than “you still get something, no matter what.”

Loot boxes....skirt the gambling issue even more because you’re paying a flat fee for a bunch of items you aren’t 100 percent sure you’re going to like or want. You’re basically gambling on the creativity of the participants of that month’s contents.

I stay away from loot boxes more than I do gatchas because chances are you are getting it for a couple of creators, the rest of the stuff in there is going to sit in your inventory unused.

whether they’re gambling or not is secondary to the fact that they’re kind of a rip off.

[So Whimsy]

6 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

I stay away from loot boxes more than I do gatchas because chances are you are getting it for a couple of creators, the rest of the stuff in there is going to sit in your inventory unused.

whether they’re gambling or not is secondary to the fact that they’re kind of a rip off.

The lootboxes up for discussion here are not the ones we have in SL such as Powder Pack and the likes. Completely different things.

[Marianne Little]

4 hours ago, Catrie said:

Emphasis is mine. well yes gachas do give out prizes that aren't directly convertible. they can be resold and that money is a convertible.  there are a lot of gachas out there that I would have bought, had I been able to buy one of the items directly. most of the time I won't bother playing a gacha instead I will go to the MP. which means the creator isn't getting the money, a third party is. I would rather give my money to the creator, who spent time and effort making the thing,than on a third party who just got a lucky pull.

I don't think creators would use gachas if they didn't earn more money from then than selling one item no transfer.

I think there are big players that buy up a lot of gacha when it's new and send it out on the Marketplace directly.The third party is earning money, but so is the creator. Many third party sellers sell cheap. They would not play the gacha machine 20, 30 times if they couldn't get rid of the items. I think. So they calculate the loss of customers that would buy it once, against others that will pull a lot of times.

I prefer the MP too, unless it is a lot of the common prices that I like. I can then play the gacha and send one or two commons to my alts. I like wearable things in a gacha, so I can send them between me and my alts. Hah, I can even make a copy of my head, apply a skin on it and then pass the applier to an alt, and still have the skin for myself.

And also bloggers that use the gacha items once for their pictures and then sell it. There is no need for copy items if you just set it up for a blogpost.

Many people judge gachas from what use they have for them, not what use others have for gachas.

It also think it is annoying when there are just one really tempting item in the gacha and I dislike the commons. Then I wish I could buy only it directly. But so is human nature. I want everything the way I want it.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Interesting thought, what's the difference between "loot boxes"  and other similar things, like those little gacha machines in stores (collectibles, have resale value) or other "blind purchases" like trading cards with a very strong second-hand market (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon, etc)?

You can buy a booster pack of 15 MTG cards, you know there's going to be 10 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare or mythic, and a land card from whatever set that booster is for. But you have no idea what the exact cards are going to be. Not all of those cards are good or playable for you, most of them won't be worth anything (2 cents second-hand) but others could be worth $40 or over $200.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Theresa Tennyson]

41 minutes ago, BloodSlaughter said:

Ill add that i got great admiration concerning those companies such as EA GAMES that removed instantly their lootbox after the belgium announce they take care about their image.

 

So, you admire the company that essentially created the lootbox system that got Belgium up in arms, and was threatened with legal action about it?

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/284808-ea-agrees-to-remove-fifa-loot-boxes-in-belgium

[Janet Voxel]

23 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

The lootboxes up for discussion here are not the ones we have in SL such as Powder Pack and the likes. Completely different things.

So how does this discussion pertain to Second Life?

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, janetosilio said:

So how does this discussion pertain to Second Life?

gachas?