Loot Boxes Revisited

[Drake1 Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

Yes we are because this is the first time where I see you not being smart about a topic. The price of the pull doesn't matter, but the function does. And that's exactly as a lootbox in an mmorpg.

Believe me, I can pile screenshots upon screenshots of the mmorpg's I played, and yes I did purchase lootboxes in all of them and yes, they're like gachas EXCEPT for the fact I couldn't trade the stuff for real money, just in game gold or gems, so actually SL gacha's are worse in that respect.

What games did/do you play? Maybe we can have a jam session sometimes. Up for grabs are BDO, Tera, GW2, MS2, ESO that I currently have installed. And yep, all of them have them lootboxes.

There are no lootboxes per say in SL. Gatchas do nothing to improve SL. They dont help you "win" with special loot or epic weapons. Lootboxes are only being attacked because players who cant afford to buy them are saying they unfairly balance the game. Which is true, they do. If you have money you can get the best weapons, armor, mounts, vehicles and whatever else you need to win. Neither Lootboxes or gatchas are actually gambling as you know what you can possibly get. As was said earlier, should baseball cards, magic cards, pokemon, yu-gi-oh and any other card pack type cards also be considered gambling?

[Sasy Scarborough]

Years before Gacha events I came across a Latex store that had a LUCKY DIP machine, I played that 15L a play machine something like 37 times and did not get a double until the 26th pull it was insanely fun, the store had literally put her whole collection of items into this machine, random colours she didn't release and so on. Then the Gacha event happened with the Chocolat sims,  because culturally it is very popular and they did the red bags/boxes rezzed on the ground and you purchased them and you got what you got and it was all little token items, little toys, or food like stuff, it was adorable and cute and taught SL about something popular in other countries. The sims were packed and then they had to suddenly sell them, so when they did others took over and did a few more gacha like events, then it stopped. Then once mesh came along and items in volume could be created faster, and it took over in a big way.

I like some of the creativity of Gachas but I don't pay to win anything particular, I will play with the idea that I like it all and it benefits my inventory ( I have never sold a gacha item, I will give them to my friends ) if I search rare in my inventory it is crazy how many come up, and are usually unpacked. If I like everything in a machine and win a rare first go I usually throw more money at the machine, because it feels kind of odd to win a house for 50L , but there are times when I will just play that one time and that is it, so is there a benefit, because there are stores now that only seem to gacha release, and then only get maybe 50 - 250 L off of me, but when/if they did actual releases may get 500 + 

For bloggers, decorators and those that just like redoing their space often, gachas are a bonus, because again we could win a house, a backdrop, prop pieces, decor that would have in the past been 250+ a piece now for 50L . I did recently read that a sim owners whole sim was returned to them, a full main-store, and because of the amount of rare and common gachas she used to decorate it, the Lindens would not roll her sim back, so years of work had to be redone to fix something not her fault, that was a big eye opener on whether having gachas laying around is a good thing.

What I don't like is hearing of OCD people playing  that makes me really sad and a lot do it, so they play until they get all the pieces of a set, and that is dangerous.  I also do think that it is gambling, I do think that it plays into that part of people that have that kind of addiction and it feeds it, and that can be very hard to then turn off in the RL for some, so I feel that is dangerous. I also think breedables are gambling and the hundreds of USD and in some cases thousands that some spend on them is horrifying. 

 

[Dillon Levenque]

46 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Brussels sprouts are gifts from god. Slice them in half, pan fry some bacon then the sprouts with some garlic, add in a little apple cider and simmer till thickened.. Perfection on a plate. 

Okay, you sold me. I have to admit that sounds mostly edible (although using that recipe I reckon you could cook golf balls and it wouldn't be too bad).

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

What I don't like is hearing of OCD people playing  that makes me really sad and a lot do it, so they play until they get all the pieces of a set, and that is dangerous.  I also do think that it is gambling, I do think that it plays into that part of people that have that kind of addiction and it feeds it, and that can be very hard to then turn off in the RL for some, so I feel that is dangerous. I also think breedables are gambling and the hundreds of USD and in some cases thousands that some spend on them is horrifying. 

If you use this as some sort of measurement, by the very same token, those people can't/shouldn't participate in an awful LOT of things, especially anywhere online. I'm not sure that's the most fair assessment of these situations though, or a measurement of how they are potentially gambling/potentially harmful. When you're dealing with OCD-and things similar to it-isn't quite a great deal of things they do a potential gamble or potential trigger? The answer to that question is a resounding yes, a very loud one, though it may also, if not certainly, come with the "your mileage may vary" caveat.  That's the sort of danger one can only protect one's self from, and the remainder of the world really can't be held responsible for when/if someone can't, or simply chooses not to-or rather, held responsible for ensuring they are protected. I don't believe you're trying to say the world should, but I can't quite tell from the post, so I'm gonna stick with that's probably not what you're trying to say.  

[Sasy Scarborough]

29 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

That's the sort of danger one can only protect one's self from, and the remainder of the world really can't be held responsible for when/if someone can't, or simply chooses not to-or rather, held responsible for ensuring they are protected. I don't believe you're trying to say the world should, but I can't quite tell from the post, so I'm gonna stick with that's probably not what you're trying to say.  

Yes, just me having feelings, nothing really can be done about it by anyone other than themselves as you said. 

[kali Wylder]

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.  I don't like gacha so I don't do them. I don't need to outlaw them, or say they are evil.  Why do people want so badly to make up rules for other people?

[Akane Nacht]

More than once I just wanted a Common and I got a darn Rare 😭

[steeljane42]

6 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

There are no lootboxes per say in SL. Gatchas do nothing to improve SL. They dont help you "win" with special loot or epic weapons. Lootboxes are only being attacked because players who cant afford to buy them are saying they unfairly balance the game. Which is true, they do. If you have money you can get the best weapons, armor, mounts, vehicles and whatever else you need to win. Neither Lootboxes or gatchas are actually gambling as you know what you can possibly get. As was said earlier, should baseball cards, magic cards, pokemon, yu-gi-oh and any other card pack type cards also be considered gambling?

Look up the Overwatch lootboxes and how they are banned in Belgium already. They contain only skins and provide nothing that affects gameplay or provides an unfair advantage over the people who don't have said skins.

So yes, gacha = lootboxes. The content of the "box" doesn't matter, it's still gambling for a chance to get an item you want, be it rare or a common; skin or some boost. You have no way of knowing what you'll get and have to gamble.

Edited February 26, 2019 by steeljane42

[Kyrah Abattoir]

53 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Look up the Overwatch lootboxes and how they are banned in Belgium already. They contain only skins and provide nothing that affects gameplay or provides an unfair advantage over the people who don't have said skins.

So yes, gacha = lootboxes. The content of the "box" doesn't matter, it's still gambling for a chance to get an item you want, be it rare or a common; skin or some boost. You have no way of knowing what you'll get and have to gamble.

Another issue is that there is no way to actually trust the script that is being used, and on most gacha machines you can't actually see the odds for each item "rare" could be 20, 10, 1%, Hell the machine could be completely non-random...

Now this is a project I could work on... making a free gacha machine script that offers all kinds of rigged approaches to delivering prizes. Maybe that will make LL ban gachas.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.  I don't like gacha so I don't do them. I don't need to outlaw them, or say they are evil.  Why do people want so badly to make up rules for other people?

Mostly the people who want to make rules for others are in fact the lawmakers. Largely the opinions that people express here will have no effect.

[Fionalein]

13 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Mostly the people who want to make rules for others are in fact the lawmakers. Largely the opinions that people express here will have no effect.

AKA the legislative, which usually tries to do something that gets them elected again. So they listen to people - not neccesarily the SL Forums though. As an infamous German politician coined it: "If you wanna dry up a pond you better don't ask the frogs." (Erwin Huber, translated)

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fionalein

[Love Zhaoying]

Lutes? Newts? I dun getit.

[Fionalein]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Now this is a project I could work on... making a free gacha machine script that offers all kinds of rigged approaches to delivering prizes. Maybe that will make LL ban gachas.

It isn't already happening? Take a compu gacha with 24 pieces, 2 pieces are "rare" and "rare rate" is 1 out of 10....

common chance = (1/22)*(9/10) = 0.041

rare chance = (1/2)*(1/10) =0.05

The rare is the actually most likely price... people will quite often get them and try playing to complete the set after they "already" got "the rares"

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fionalein

[So Whimsy]

8 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

There are no lootboxes per say in SL. Gatchas do nothing to improve SL. They dont help you "win" with special loot or epic weapons. Lootboxes are only being attacked because players who cant afford to buy them are saying they unfairly balance the game. Which is true, they do. If you have money you can get the best weapons, armor, mounts, vehicles and whatever else you need to win. Neither Lootboxes or gatchas are actually gambling as you know what you can possibly get. As was said earlier, should baseball cards, magic cards, pokemon, yu-gi-oh and any other card pack type cards also be considered gambling?

Plenty of lootboxes in games are just cosmetics as well and do not advance your game play.....

And they ARE gambling because while you know what you can get, there's no percentages of posted of the different tier chances. I have no idea why you are so blind to this o.O;;

[Drake1 Nightfire]

11 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

It isn't already happening? Take a compu gacha with 24 pieces, 2 pieces are "rare" and "rare rate" is 1 out of 10....

common chance = (1/22)*(9/10) = 0.041

rare chance = (1/2)*(1/10) =0.05

The rare is the actually most likely price... people will quite often get them and try playing to complete the set after they "already" got "the rares"

Not necessarily. I can set my gatchas to have different % for each type. If i have 4 things in it, 2 common, 1 rare, 1 ultra rare, I can set it to 90% common, 9% rare, 1% ultra rare. Yet, my machines do tell you in the description window what the % are. 

4 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Plenty of lootboxes in games are just cosmetics as well and do not advance your game play.....

And they ARE gambling because while you know what you can get, there's no percentages of posted of the different tier chances. I have no idea why you are so blind to this o.O;;

There are no lootboxes in SL. So they aren't gambling in SL. Again, if all it takes is random chance for it to be gambling, all the card packs need to be listed as such and made illegal for children to buy. Same with the 25 cent vending machines at the malls and grocery stores. 

Discussing Lootboxes has no place in the SL forums as it does not pertain to SL. You want to get technical about things, keep it SL related. 

 

[Fionalein]

17 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

There are no lootboxes in SL.

Keep saying it, keep believing it. But gacha and lootboxes still stay the same. You just don't want to see it. That said I believe they will stay. SL is but a shadow of what it was during the times of the gambling ban. Even after a lootbox ban gachas will simply stay because the feds have more important things to do. Unless someone calls on them to investigate gachas they won't come on their own.

PS: and yes a lootbox ban could well accidentaly end baseball and magic cards - I expect no less fro the land which outlawed Kinder surprise

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fionalein

[Zeta Vandyke]

Loot boxes are more like a storage box sale. You pay an amount of money to buy the box. The content is a surprise, sometimes you have a glimpse or indication of the content, but you actually buy the box.

Gacha you pay the machine and get one random item out of it.

They share some parts of the concept, but would not call them the same. Would call both of them gambling though.

[Fionalein]

1 minute ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Loot boxes are more like a storage box sale. You pay an amount of money to buy the box. The content is a surprise, sometimes you have a glimpse or indication of the content, but you actually buy the box.

And that differs from the SL gacha in what aspect?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

6 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

And that differs from the SL gacha in what aspect?

Because you know EXACTLY what is in a gatcha. 

 

20 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Keep saying it, keep believing it. But gacha and lootboxes still stay the same. You just don't want to see it. That said I believe they will stay. SL is but a shadow of what it was during the times of the gambling ban. Even after a lootbox ban gachas will simply stay because the feds have more important things to do. Unless someone calls on them to investigate gachas they won't come on their own.

PS: and yes a lootbox ban could well accidentaly end baseball and magic cards - I expect no less fro the land which outlawed Kinder surprise

 

 

There isn't even a hint that Gatchas are going to be banned or considered gambling in SL. All these threads are just full of people opinions about why they hate them. This has been hashed over and over for years and they haven't gone anywhere. Until LL says something, I will keep making things for my machines and buying things i like from others. 

[So Whimsy]

1. You know EXACTLY what is in a lootbox in MMORPG's, too. I have yet to find a single mmorpg where it doesn't list the exact items in the box.

2. It doesn't matter if its packaged in a box, a machine or a dang banana. You give someone money and you get a RANDOM item that may or may not be what you want.

3. Most machines nowadays do not show the percentage of what you get, mostly because the chance at a rare is set incredibly low. The only lootbox that does give the exact percentage that I have found so far is within the almost dead nowadays game Puzzle Pirates.

4. Just because you keep saying lootboxes and gacha's aren't the same doesn't make it true.

Edit: 5. Just because there is no hint of gacha's being banned doesn't mean we can't discuss this. As that is the entire point of this thread if you want to go back and read the OP.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Syn Anatine

[Drake1 Nightfire]

10 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

1. You know EXACTLY what is in a lootbox in MMORPG's, too. I have yet to find a single mmorpg where it doesn't list the exact items in the box.

2. It doesn't matter if its packaged in a box, a machine or a dang banana. You give someone money and you get a RANDOM item that may or may not be what you want.

3. Most machines nowadays do not show the percentage of what you get, mostly because the chance at a rare is set incredibly low. The only lootbox that does give the exact percentage that I have found so far is within the almost dead nowadays game Puzzle Pirates.

4. Just because you keep saying lootboxes and gacha's aren't the same doesn't make it true.

Edit: 5. Just because there is no hint of gacha's being banned doesn't mean we can't discuss this. As that is the entire point of this thread if you want to go back and read the OP.

I did read the OP.. Several times. NOTHING HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT BANNING GATCHAS!!  This whole thread has nothing to do with SL. If you dont like gatchas, dont pay them. There is no reason to discuss this. 

You keep bringing up Lootboxes when they have no place in a discussion about SL. If you mean Gatchas, say so. There are no lootboxes in SL. You keep talking about MMoRPGs and their lootboxes, when SL is not a MMoRPG nor does it have lootboxes. Therefore this discussion is nothing more than a huge heap of FUD. 

[So Whimsy]

6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I did read the OP.. Several times. NOTHING HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT BANNING GATCHAS!!  This whole thread has nothing to do with SL. If you dont like gatchas, dont pay them. There is no reason to discuss this. 

You keep bringing up Lootboxes when they have no place in a discussion about SL. If you mean Gatchas, say so. There are no lootboxes in SL. You keep talking about MMoRPGs and their lootboxes, when SL is not a MMoRPG nor does it have lootboxes. Therefore this discussion is nothing more than a huge heap of FUD. 

I do like gacha's. I play them. I have a Gacha resale alt (ApothicStore) with over 600 listings remaining.

That said, the OP asked if the banning of lootboxes could impact SL gacha's since they're one and the same should american law's change. I think they should since they are the same as lootboxes.

You are bringing up lootboxes saying they're completely different from gacha's, not sure where I brought them up since I was directly responding to what YOU were saying this whole time. Are you confused today Drake?

You are right, SL is not an mmorpg but that does not suddenly turn gacha's into something completely different than lootboxes. Matter of fact is, the function of lootboxes and gacha's are the same and that is what matters. Not the name, not the shape, the function is what matters. So we're circling back to the OP's question now. Since belgium already banned lootboxes and many other countries looking into this;  if lootboxes are going to get banned as a whole, it would also impact gacha's within SL as LL would have to comply with the law.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Syn Anatine

[Paul Hexem]

Lootbox: Pay in virtual currency for a chance to win an item from a pre-defined list where some items are lower chance than others. Usually these items are cosmetic, like clothes.

Gacha: Pay in virtual currency for a chance to win an item from a pre-defined list where some items are lower chance than others. Usually these items are cosmetic, like clothes.

Yeah, those I can see how someone would think those are two completely different things.

[Love Zhaoying]

Lute case

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

I do like gacha's. I play them. I have a Gacha resale alt (ApothicStore) with over 600 listings remaining.

That said, the OP asked if the banning of lootboxes could impact SL gacha's since they're one and the same should american law's change. I think they should since they are the same as lootboxes.

You are bringing up lootboxes saying they're completely different from gacha's, not sure where I brought them up since I was directly responding to what YOU were saying this whole time. Are you confused today Drake?

You are right, SL is not an mmorpg but that does not suddenly turn gacha's into something completely different than lootboxes. Matter of fact is, the function of lootboxes and gacha's are the same and that is what matters. Not the name, not the shape, the function is what matters. So we're circling back to the OP's question now. Since belgium already banned lootboxes and many other countries looking into this;  if lootboxes are going to get banned as a whole, it would also impact gacha's within SL as LL would have to comply with the law.

Seeing as gatchas were not banned in SL for use by Belgium people... Apparently they are different things. And before you say they aren't, gambling was sorted by state law, not one all encompassing one, so they could easily do the same by country. Minnesota has already made lootboxes 18+ to buy, why hasn't LL implemented that for gatchas if they are the same thing? They did it with the gambling laws in the US. Why haven't they made Minnesotans unable to buy gathcas unless they are 18? Until LL says they are doing something about it, this discussion is moot.  

i keep saying there are no lootboxes in SL and try to bring the conversation back to SL related things like gatchas, just because you think they are the same, doesn't make it so. A car and a truck are both types of motor vehicles but they are very different.

Here's the thing, SL already has in place a system to tell if you are over 18, unlike most MMoRPGs which may have that info but it has no bearing on the game. If you are under 18 you can't get onto A or even M land. All LL would have to do is make sure gathcas are on gambling enabled land. Just like they did with all those card games and games of chance. The US won't make them Illegal. Big game companies pay far too much to lobbyists for that to happen.