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9 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It's always ok to disagree. You know that. Most discussions have some disagreements in them.

Then, I posit that “the truth” may be different for different people on some topics. Absolutes are kinda negotiable.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
*then not than

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That's true, but in this case - Valentine's Day - I have no doubt that the tradition in the western world, and possibly in most of the world, hasn't changed at all; i.e. the giving of cards, sometimes anonymously, to indicate a romantic favourite. The fact that the idea of 'all give to all so that nobody is special to anyone, and nobody is left out' apparently has and probably does happen in some schools, but that's not change of Valentine's Day tradition. It's merely a tiny implementation of something similar.

I fully believe that Valentine's Day is traditionally about romantic thoughts towards a person. I believe that that's the truth throughout the world, with the possible exception of tiny bits of the world, and that it hasn't changed. Selena argued that it has changed, but I'm sure she didn't realise what I said, and that it changing in a school devoided what I said, but it didn't. Luna -...well, I can't imagine what she was thinking, so I assume she was being obnoxious for the sake of it. I hope she'll explain what she was thinking.

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1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

Alright. It changed where you live - that's the only place where you were - but not in the rest of the world. So, of course, you weren't there. On second thoughts, it didn't even change where you live. You are wrong. The tradition might have changed in a school or schools where you live, but not in the town where you live, and that's much bigger. The tradition in the town hasn't changed at all.

Note that I am not saying that 'all give all a card so that nobody is special to anyone' didn't and doesn't happen. I'm saying that the tradition of the romantic giving of Valentine cards has not changed - anywhere - including where you live. I suspect that you haven't understood this bit of the conversation.

 

I will have you know that in every town I have personally lived, and talked to other people in (which is far more than I can likely even name, let alone remember the sheer number at this point) since my earliest memories of life....many, and I do mean MANY, have altered the traditions they celebrate on Valentine's Day. As I said before, I'm not one of them so much, especially as an adult, because I don't really celebrate any traditions at all on that day...but loads and loads and loads of people do. They celebrate the day all kinds of ways, really. 

It seriously is NOT just a day for romance anymore, and hasn't been for a really long time, longer than I've been alive, that much I know from talking to those in generations before mine (which I do frequently, they have amazing stories...but I digress)-and that is something that works the world over. In fact, in some countries, it's really a day about friendship and love is sort of on the side. Of course, this very well may not be in celebration of the true ORIGIN of the day, but that doesn't alter the current fact. The current fact is....many, many, many people..more than I can certainly count right now, celebrate that day as a day simply to share love, friendship, smiles, whatever have you. Romance plays a role for some, absolutely, and I would never begrudge anyone the belief that it should, but the "traditions" as they once were have been changing for generations. This is something that I am certain happens to likely every holiday, really, over time as people adapt, change their points of view, change their opinions, change their desires...whatever have you, they change. As they change, HOW they celebrate and what traditions they take part in, are just as likely to change. They may not change for everyone, I'm quite certain they do not, actually, but they do change for quite a significant number of people.

Look at how many people buy things for their children on Valentine's day-I've worked retail and the vast majority of my rl friends are parents, it's way more than you probably think. That's certainly not in the spirit of romantic giving, or following traditions created by the origin of the day, now is it? Love, yes, romance...eh...that's a line no one should be thinking about, let alone crossing. I only bring that up because it IS very much something that happens a crap ton(and it works in reverse too, kids giving things to parents too), not just in the US, though it may happen more in the US, I can't be certain since I've only ever lived here.  And it also goes against both your and Bradford's idea of what Valentine's day *is*(or rather, how you both seem to think it should be, for everyone). I won't begrudge you your opinions, but sometimes you state things as if they are fact, rather than opinion, and sometimes your facts aren't right. Yes the tradition of giving romantic cards still exists, but it's not the ONLY tradition of Valentine's Day celebrated, all over the world. Some folks may not like that fact, but it doesn't make it any less a fact. 

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18 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

That's true, but in this case - Valentine's Day - I have no doubt that the tradition in the western world, and possibly in most of the world, hasn't changed at all; i.e. the giving of cards, sometimes anonymously, to indicate a romantic favourite. The fact that the idea of 'all give to all so that nobody is special to anyone, and nobody is left out' apparently has and probably does happen in some schools, but that's not change of Valentine's Day tradition. It's merely a tiny implementation of something similar.

I fully believe that Valentine's Day is traditionally about romantic thoughts towards a person. I believe that that's the truth throughout the world, with the possible exception of tiny bits of the world, and that it hasn't changed. Selena argued that it has changed, but I'm sure she didn't realise what I said, and that it changing in a school devoided what I said, but it didn't. Luna -...well, I can't imagine what she was thinking, so I assume she was being obnoxious for the sake of it. I hope she'll explain what she was thinking.

I believe I read that in Japan, women are pressured to give men chocolates. So, there’s an example where it’s different in different places: no card, not necessarily romantic, woman gives chocolate specifically (not men, kind of a role reversal from the US). 

In the US, many men give flowers. This past VD, at the grocery (crowded) I saw maybe half the men buying flowers. Along the road, I saw many one-day-only flower sales tables setup.

Its not hard for me to imagine that it can be radically different, in different places. When I was in early school, the real competition was to make the coolest box for your valentines cards, not how many cards you bought. I won once by making my box a largish robot, with flashing lights and fake buttons.

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's nice to feel that somebody loves you, and nice to give someone that feeling.

   ❤️

Edited by Ivanova Shostakovich

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This wasn't a thing where I went to school.  The only cards that changed hands were between partners or anonymously from an admirer.
I don't know of anyone who does this for friendship without the love interest.  I believe in this New Zealand is very much like the UK.

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Hallmark sells Valentine's Day cards in the following categories: 
For 'relationship' of Brother, Sister, Child, Mother, Father, Family, Granddaughter, Grandson, Grandmother, Grandfather, Nephew, Niece, Everyone, and quite a few more. 
As well as a variety of 'tones', which include "General Wish".

Thus there must be a pretty good business for non romantic cards.  Hallmark isn't know for continuing to sell cards that don't get bought.

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30 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Hallmark sells Valentine's Day cards in the following categories: 
For 'relationship' of Brother, Sister, Child, Mother, Father, Family, Granddaughter, Grandson, Grandmother, Grandfather, Nephew, Niece, Everyone, and quite a few more. 
As well as a variety of 'tones', which include "General Wish".

Thus there must be a pretty good business for non romantic cards.  Hallmark isn't know for continuing to sell cards that don't get bought.

In NZ the only Valentines Day cards that are available to buy indicate a romantic relationship and that includes from Hallmark.

Edited by Gabriele Graves

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Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

In NZ the only Valentines Day cards that are available to buy indicate a romantic relationship and that includes from Hallmark.

Apparently the friendly ones only sell well in certain places then.  Other places think of Valentine's day as a romantic thing only - my guess.

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1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Apparently the friendly ones only sell well in certain places then.  Other places think of Valentine's day as a romantic thing only - my guess.

Yes, that is my point really.  Different places, different perspectives.  Ain't the world a wonderful place? :)

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11 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Yes, that is my point really.  Different places, different perspectives.  Ain't the world a wonderful place? :)

It certainly is, and I love learning about all those differences.

Regarding Hallmark's different tactics in different cultures, that's to be expected. Benihana's teppan restaurants are called Benihana's of Tokyo in the US and Benihana's of New York in Japan. Every place has its own culture and customs, but many of us seem to believe that far off places are more interesting than our own. My own little corner of the world becomes more interesting as I learn about all the others.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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9 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Hallmark sells Valentine's Day cards in the following categories: 
For 'relationship' of Brother, Sister, Child, Mother, Father, Family, Granddaughter, Grandson, Grandmother, Grandfather, Nephew, Niece, Everyone, and quite a few more. 
As well as a variety of 'tones', which include "General Wish".

Thus there must be a pretty good business for non romantic cards.  Hallmark isn't know for continuing to sell cards that don't get bought.

They just want your money. In their catalogue you'll probably find also the following:-

"To my dear future ex-wife/husband"

And Valentine's Day gifts to children????? Nonononono

I'm going to go and print some "Wishing you a happy bacon sandwich day" cards 

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8 hours ago, Bradford Mint said:

They just want your money. In their catalogue you'll probably find also the following:-

"To my dear future ex-wife/husband"

And Valentine's Day gifts to children????? Nonononono

I'm going to go and print some "Wishing you a happy bacon sandwich day" cards 

Love exists if you believe it does...

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3 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:
27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Love exists if you believe it does...

And bacon cures vegans! :)

What have you got against love, Bradford?

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18 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:

Nothing, however, I'd suggest that if you have to believe rather than just have it hit you, perhaps it's not love after all?

To quote Cher, “Do you believe in life after love?”

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3 hours ago, Bradford Mint said:

Nothing, however, I'd suggest that if you have to believe rather than just have it hit you, perhaps it's not love after all?

That's an interesting statement. I started to respond to it but not quite finished.

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4 hours ago, Bradford Mint said:

Nothing, however, I'd suggest that if you have to believe rather than just have it hit you, perhaps it's not love after all?

I think that's a distinction without a difference.

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6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

To quote Cher, “Do you believe in life after love?”

The question is ambiguous.

Life after love while still in love or life after love ends? Or that after love, one route should be death, the alternate being to remain alive?

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I think that's a distinction without a difference.

Well it begs the question as to what love is and how each defines it, i.e. how do you know when you're in love versus infatuation or lust.

So if we want to go by song references, I'll call upon Haddaway who asked "What is love?"

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16 hours ago, Bradford Mint said:

They just want your money.

Of course they do.  They are a corporation, after all.

I was simply implying that there likely are quite a few people buying those non-romantic cards or they wouldn't keep selling them.  Thus, at least in the markets where they do offer the non-romantic cards, it must be a fairly popular concept with folks.

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25 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:

The question is ambiguous.

Life after love while still in love or life after love ends? Or that after love, one route should be death, the alternate being to remain alive?

The song was written after Sonny died, they had divorced years before that. So, you can extrapolate that it means “after love ends”.

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