How to broach script use with neighbors.

[foxfirestorm]

16 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

As Ethan said, even a Skybox won't fix the issue of only having roughly 40-55% of script time available -- assuming you care about scripted stuff working worth a darn on your parcel.

Duly noted. I will admit for myself, I am not 100% on how all the things work. I just know for myself if I cut off view from things,it gets better.

So, I am sorry if I just ruffled any feathers.

[Kittony]

11 hours ago, k9loverjasmine said:

I walked there parcel and clicked about land an then checked the script button.  I currently have not found the statistics tab on Firestorm though its probably staring me in the face I just don't know what to look for.

their not there** And by the way You don't have rights to walk other people's parcels and click about land or anything else.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Kittony said:

And by the way You don't have rights to walk other people's parcels and click about land or anything else.

Sure you do if said parcel doesn't have any settings that prevent such.  Nothing in the LL TOS prevents anyone from doing that.

 

12 minutes ago, foxfirestorm said:

I just know for myself if I cut off view from things,it gets better.

Yes, cutting view of things most definitely makes many things much better.   

Script time is script time though and if you need some and someone else is using it all, then you're basically screwed - and sim script time doesn't really care 'where' in the sim you are.

 

[MoiraKathleen]

4 minutes ago, Kittony said:

You don't have rights to walk other people's parcels and click about land

As far as I know there is not anything private about the "About Land" information.  When I'm out exploring, if I see a nice build the first thing I do is read the "About Land" for the parcel to see if the description gives any clue as to whether it's OK to walk in and wander about and check out the build, or if it's marked as a private residence, etc.  When you have an issue with something on another parcel, it's also how you can find out who owns that parcel so that you know who to contact to see about working it out. I think that you might even be able to click on the land and see the About Land details even if the parcel access is not set to public. 

[Kittony]

4 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

As far as I know there is not anything private about the "About Land" information.  When I'm out exploring, if I see a nice build the first thing I do is read the "About Land" for the parcel to see if the description gives any clue as to whether it's OK to walk in and wander about and check out the build, or if it's marked as a private residence, etc.  When you have an issue with something on another parcel, it's also how you can find out who owns that parcel so that you know who to contact to see about working it out. I think that you might even be able to click on the land and see the About Land details even if the parcel access is not set to public. 

So You both would be okay with me wandering around Your land / home / etc and looking around, taking pics, posting said pics in the forum?  Somehow that seems kinda rude to me.  But then, I am somewhat new to SL.  *shrugs* Guess everyone has their own standards online as well as real life.

[Ethan Paslong]

4 minutes ago, Kittony said:

So You both would be okay with me wandering around Your land / home / etc and looking around, taking pics, posting said pics in the forum?  Somehow that seems kinda rude to me.  But then, I am somewhat new to SL.  *shrugs* Guess everyone has their own standards online as well as real life.

unless there's explicit stated you are not welcome , written, by banlines or orbs... you can enter everywhere without repercussions. You can make pics from nearly any distance or even on the parcel, with or without banlines , you even can post them everywhere you want.
Privacy on SL is a very limited thing... nearly not excisting. Only way to get is by owning a private sim without neighbouring ones, and limit that sim to private access.
To have a little more privacy on parcels there's the visibility for avatars and chat. You can turn that off.

[LittleMe Jewell]

23 minutes ago, Kittony said:

So You both would be okay with me wandering around Your land / home / etc and looking around, taking pics, posting said pics in the forum?  Somehow that seems kinda rude to me.  But then, I am somewhat new to SL.  *shrugs* Guess everyone has their own standards online as well as real life.

Yep - not a problem with my land.  But then I already know that there is no true privacy in SL.  Anyone could cam into my parcel from regions away and see everything.  They can click on the land itself, without ever entering it, and see the About Land tab showing the name of the owner or owning group.  The only thing I can do in the way of privacy is tick the box that keeps people from outside the parcel from seeing people inside the parcel -- and if I don't have the parcel restricted for access then all anyone has to do is cross the border to actually see the people in the parcel.

Now, **most** people in SL will not just wander into someone's house or inside a fenced area, but wandering around parcels that are not restricted is very common.

 

Side note - Taking pictures of things on other people's land is exactly what you have to do if you want to report something to LL.

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[MoiraKathleen]

39 minutes ago, Kittony said:

So You both would be okay with me wandering around Your land / home / etc and looking around, taking pics, posting said pics in the forum?  Somehow that seems kinda rude to me.  But then, I am somewhat new to SL.  *shrugs* Guess everyone has their own standards online as well as real life.

The reason that I check the "About Land" before entering someone's parcel is to make sure that I'm not being rude.  If there is a beautiful garden but the "About Land" description says "Private Residence" than I will not enter on to the land to view the garden.  But if the "About Land" says something like "enjoy wandering around the garden..." or "welcome to take pics" or "stop and take a rest break from your travels..." then I would enter the land and walk around the garden.  I don't enter homes on other parcels.  

As LittleMe and Ethan both mentioned above, one can cam in and view a parcel or click the land to bring up the "About Land"  on a parcel from a distance without even being in that parcel.  The only way to have complete privacy - meaning no one can even see into your parcel - is to have your own whole private region and set the access to either group only access, no public access or to use a security orb so that no one other than those on the white list can TP to that region from selecting it on the map.  

ETA:  If someone enjoyed what I've done with landscaping on my parcel, or with how I have my house set up, so much that they wanted to share those pictures on the forum, than I would probably feel honored.  I am always working to improve my landscaping skills and in trying to capture a particular feel in how I furnish my houses.

Edited December 27, 2018 by moirakathleen

[Qie Niangao]

52 minutes ago, Kittony said:

And by the way You don't have rights to walk other people's parcels and click about land or anything else.

Even if you can't walk the land because of parcel access restrictions, you can get the About Land information by clicking on the ground (even if it's buried under a prim). Indeed, I didn't bother to try going to that land when I checked the script memory. Much of the relevant information can also be gathered by script for any parcel in the region (notably including the instantaneous number of temp-rezzed prims, which can sometimes reveal the source of repeated lag spikes, for example).

You can also get estimates of the script resource requirements for individual items anywhere on the region. That's fairly useless in terms of memory, but can sure help track down script-time hogs. (There's a bit of an art to it... too arcane for this thread at this point anyway.)

There actually is some restriction on taking photos. I almost never take images myself (not even of myself -- hence my antiquated Profile picture) so I don't know the rules. I kinda think it may be wide open on Mainland, but absolutely don't take my word on that.

Anyway, "privacy" of stuff rezzed on one's pixel property is a super bad idea. Anybody who's lived through a good ol' fashioned griefer attack will know immediately why.

[LittleMe Jewell]

11 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

There actually is some restriction on taking photos.

True - there are rules in place, though the rules for photos do not apply if the photo is being submitted with an AR report or Support ticket.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Snapshot_and_machinima_policy

 

Basically, for photos it is a specific 'opt out' policy, whereas for machinima it is a specific 'opt in' policy.

Edited December 27, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, foxfirestorm said:

While I am not going to get heavy into this subject, because I actually know the guy who owns the land in question... ^_^;;;
What I can say is that the breedables (aka the robots) are Buildables, which all run at 320 kb/s as script goes. They are probably the lowest running script breedable I'm aware of on SL. Not that it really helps when someone has a troubling connection but-- I do agree with some other statements here on skyboxes.

[...]
Added: I also noted near his space was someone with amaretto horses and ABC Horses. Now ABCs can get a bit higher on the script, but they are not hard to load in, but amaretto horses... where-ever i go that has those guys and they get loaded in? It can get a bit of a headache and I have around a 15 mb/s + download speed. You also got a club in the distance by the looks of the lights and the neon signs, and clubs can also cause issues when down on the ground level just cause textures and lighting.

Just to clarify a couple things kinda specific to this situation. There are several ways scripted items can cause lag, and at least two of them are happening on this sim. One is when scripts flood the scene with object updates, which is what's going on with the items next door ("Buildables" apparently). There's all kinds of flapping wings and flailing arms and stuff happening that's gotta get from sim to viewer and then rendered in the viewer, and that's kind of a nightmare, regardless of how efficiently the scripts perform all these machinations. With a beefy enough network and PC, quite a few of these things can be in the interest list simultaneously (our OP, for example, has no problems) but otherwise it can be a big problem (and I think that's what's killing off her guest's viewer and its connection to the sim).

In contrast, the depressed Scripts Run percentage is a whole separate problem that may well be attributable to something else on the sim. I didn't take a careful look around (not even on the ground level), so there could well be other breedables or whatever, gobbling up script time without necessarily generating a lot of object updates. I could look around again sometime and try to track down the specific objects with heavy script times, but I can't get to that today. (This is where it would save a whole lot of time and effort if Mainland had the "Top Scripts" functionality that Estates have used for ages.)

One sidelight: floods of object updates can easily span region boundaries as long as the updating items are within the "interest list"; overuse of script time only affects the region where the scripts are running.

[Kittony]

Well, I have to admit I have learned a lot in this thread.  And, because of that, have now restricted access to my parcel.  Yes, they can cam.. but, cannot see the people there.  And, I am next door to this person with the bots... and, guess what.  I have no issues at all.  If You are a paying SL user You do get a free linden house.  Could always use that to meet your friend.  I'm out ~ ta

[LittleMe Jewell]

20 minutes ago, Kittony said:

Well, I have to admit I have learned a lot in this thread.  And, because of that, have now restricted access to my parcel.  Yes, they can cam.. but, cannot see the people there.  And, I am next door to this person with the bots... and, guess what.  I have no issues at all.  If You are a paying SL user You do get a free linden house.  Could always use that to meet your friend.  I'm out ~ ta

The reason many people do not restrict land access via the land window is because it causes ban lines to show for everyone.  So many will either use a security orb or not worry about restricting access at all.  Most do tick the box to prevent outside folks from seeing the people on the parcel.

As has been mentioned, some of the issues from scripts will be more pronounced if you are on a not-so-great connection or computer.

As to the LL house - you cannot have both an LL house and a mainland plot without increasing your tier costs.

[Fionalein]

23 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

As to the LL house - you cannot have both an LL house and a mainland plot without increasing your tier costs.

you mean a mainland plot above 512

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Fionalein

[k9loverjasmine]

So I think that I have come to the determination that I will need to try and sell and find another quieter residence and use my Paid Membership to find another 1024m Plot elsewhere.  At least I know what to look out for next time.   Thank you all for the help and advice.  

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

you mean a mainland plot above 512

 

True - I forgot the Premium houses are still on 512 parcels.  

Where is SSP?  We are more than ready for it.

[animats]

Sometimes it's just bad coding. I had trouble with a landlord in the same sim who had a homebrew "land board" which was scanning the sim objects every 10 seconds. That would use up all the script time for 1 second ever 10 seconds. They just needed to learn how to scan for just agents, not all objects.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

I dunno why anyone hasn't caught this so far, but when you inspect scripts and it says "32KB" or "64KB," that's not the same thing as "kbps."

Firstly, "KB" means KiloByte.. a thousand bytes. "Kb" (little b) means KiloBit and there are 8 bits in a byte.

KB or bytes are generally used to measure memory use. Whatever number you see for scripts is the amount of memory they take up on the sim (not your computer).

"Kbps" means "KiloBits Per Second," and it's used to measure data transfer rates, like your connection speed. But scripts or their data are never sent to any viewer, they only exist on the sim/server and a viewer will only be notified of any in-world changes (like a new position or color or hovertext).

The bottom line here is that you don't need much bandwidth at all for SL, but even if you have lots of it, the total amount of connections in a short time can cause you to disconnect either from SL or from the internet entirely.

I'm not entirely educated on how to fix it, but I would suggest checking for "packet loss." Packets are small pieces of information sent over the internet. Some routers are worse at dealing with lots of packets.

[Ethan Paslong]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I dunno why anyone hasn't caught this so far, but when you inspect scripts and it says "32KB" or "64KB," that's not the same thing as "kbps."

first page, second response 

On 12/27/2018 at 9:25 AM, Ethan Paslong said:

are you sure it's really Mbps for scripts? Just curious how did you measure that?

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I dunno why anyone hasn't caught this so far, but when you inspect scripts and it says "32KB" or "64KB," that's not the same thing as "kbps."

That reminded me of a loose-end in this thread: These "320 kb/s" Buildables, what's up with them anyway? Well, turns out that the 320 kb is indeed the (theoretical) memory capacity of the scripts inside each of them, and as one might expect, they each have five Mono-compiled scripts in their root prims. As to script time, they average about 25 μs each, ranging from 21 to 33 among the ones I unscientifically sampled. There seem to be about 52 pairs of them active at the moment, so that would total something like 2.5 msec or so, not counting scheduler overhead, so a significant chunk of a sim's available script time per frame.

Next door, in addition to a few (stray?) Buildables, there's a mix of ABC breedables, KittyCats, and BioBreeds (maybe others) that have more scripts (so higher theoretical memory capacity) and widely varying script times. The KittyCats, for example, seem pretty low-impact except when moving around, when their script times can skyrocket to about 100 μs each). Although there's a bunch of critters there, they don't generate nearly as many object updates, so whatever they may be doing to sim script time they won't have nearly the viewer (and network) impact as the parcel with all the Buildables.

Otherwise, sloping unsystematically around ground level of the region, I don't see a lot of heavy-hitters. Somebody has a "(Surge) Vintage Kitchen Clock Textured Scripted Example" that's not doing anybody any favors, but it's less impact than just one of the Buildables. Again, without a Mainland equivalent of Top Scripts there's no easy way to be sure there isn't another breedable factory farm in the sky somewhere.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

first page, second response 

That obviously wasn't enough because the OP kept referring to it as kbps later. They thought their mistake was the "M" part.

[Qie Niangao]

7 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That obviously wasn't enough because the OP kept referring to it as kbps later. They thought their mistake was the "M" part.

I think the OP understood after Ethan's post, but there were indeed other posts that talked about scripts in bandwidth dimensions, confusingly. The reason it's not completely crazy to focus on what scripts might be doing to bandwidth (if only we could really measure that) is the presenting symptom:

On 12/27/2018 at 7:35 AM, k9loverjasmine said:

... she freezes as does everything else for 30 seconds then her screen goes grey and the message  "You have been logged  out of Second Life.  This Region May be experiencing trouble. Please Check your connection to the internet." 

... but yeah, we're pretty far into the weeds here, surmising bandwidth impact from a subjective assessment of object update frequency.

[Hintswen Guardian]

 

On 12/27/2018 at 7:25 PM, Ethan Paslong said:

About scripts i think you better look at the Statistics toolbar to see the used script time, spare script time and amount of scripts running( amount and % )

That seems a little pointless, Most regions I have seen have no spare time unless they are pretty empty.

On 12/27/2018 at 7:45 PM, Qie Niangao said:

Now, more likely than either of these is that the neighbors simply have too much geometry showing for your friend's viewer to handle. That can also be measured in various debug consoles, but ultimately the solution would be for your friend to change viewer settings (shrink draw distance and temporarily disable features like shadows, etc.) and derender stuff that's causing the lag.

This.

On 12/28/2018 at 5:31 AM, LittleMe Jewell said:

You can sometimes report these things as 'excessive use of resources' - sometimes LL will intervene and sometimes not.

Over a year reporting someone and LL did nothing, I really don't think they care about that rule.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

 

Over a year reporting someone and LL did nothing, I really don't think they care about that rule.

I've had success with this twice, but also a couple of times reporting with no success.  Maybe depends on which Linden deals with it or maybe ........ (it is LL, after all).

[Abnor Mole]

This part of the image is very telling. The simulator is having to spend a vast majority of available resources running the 5000 scripts in the region, leaving nothing left for anything else (Spare Time is 0.001). That may also be why the Scripts Run % is hurting as it tries to keep up with demand. It may not be one or even a handful of scripts causing the problem, but simply far too many scripts overall.
 

It's also a problem I notice in many places across the grid where someone will create a detailed venue but use nearly all the simulator resources in the process. It runs beautifully when it is empty, but performance degrades quickly as soon as more than a handful of people (agents) show up. It is like building a truck with a max vehicle gross weight of 16,000 pounds and a dry vehicle weight of 15,500 pounds. By the time you add a driver and fuel, it has no capacity remaining for any passengers or cargo. That is why a good rule of thumb when building out an entire region is to reserve at least half the simulator time for agents. 

This is of course only in reference to simulator or server side lag, not client side or viewer lag which is more dependent on your computer and internet connection.