A store that constantly sells stolen content.

[Chase01]

@QuestionMarkk @Drake1 Nightfire

Unfortunately copyright theft is all too common. There are users infringing upon other users original works, and then there are those who are infringing upon the works of others outside of SL and even claiming it to be "original" ... Sometimes, both happen.

QuestionMarkk Outside of trying to expedite the process, LL is doing what is required of them by law. Doing anything beyond that could result in a liability suit.

Talking about the problem is doing something. More creators need to be made aware of the process (you'd be surprised at how many don't) so they can take action if they so desire.

 

[Butch Daddy]

20 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

I don’t understand.  How would you open in a graphics program?  Are you talking about mesh or sculpts?

Sorry.  By templates I mean those items that are created and designed to be used in a graphics program for creating clothing, etc., like in Gimp or Photoshop. 

[Butch Daddy]

20 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Wow.. 4 items in two months... Open the MP.. Search "mesh" sort newest, tick all the perm boxes.. Over 90 just on the first page, copybotted.. Please tell me which is the bigger issue. 4 items over 2 months or hundreds a day.. The copybotters get banned and they just pull up an alt and start over the next day. They need to add a way for merchants to file DMCAs on a store, not just an item. 

The problem with filing a DMCA against the entire store, or person, and not the item, is that the creator has to legally claim ownership of the item itself.  This is in the copyright laws. 

However, I do not recall seeing anything in the law that says a DMCA must be filed for each item, individually, against the same seller.  So if a user is selling 5 items from the same creator, that creator can include all 5 items in one DMCA. 

It would behoove creators to go through the sellers entire store to see if any more of their items are being sold by the user, and then include all items in the single DMCA so that Linden could ensure that all items are removed at once. 

We all wish more could be done to make the process easier, and faster.  Instead of complaining about how the law doesn't make that easy, perhaps there could be discussions about what creators can do to help protect their content?

I am thinking mostly about watermarks, or other indicators that can be hidden in templates that are not normally visible, but can be exposed. 

If you create and sell templates that can only be used in Second Life, like creating full perm clothing that others can edit and add to themselves, putting a transparent watermark on one of the clothing layers with your SL ID number that could be exposed if needed, would pretty much ensure that any resells of the templates would contain the watermark with your user ID number on it.  

Similar to when police used to tell people to etch their SSN or DL number on items in case they are stolen, the police can identify the proper owner. 

Then if you have to file a DMCA, you can provide Linden with the information on where you hid the mark and how they can see it on the item, for additional proof that you are in fact the original creator.  

After all, not many people are going to put another users ID number on their own creations. 

[Love Zhaoying]

On 1/30/2018 at 11:16 PM, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Please, in your glorious wisdom granted to you by whomever, explain how LL could possibly combat copybotting without closing SL to all but the official LL viewer. I await your divine guidance with baited breath... 

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! If anyone tries to upload an asset that is exactly like an existing asset created by another user, prevent that upload! It’s a simple database compare. Use hashing algorithms then if there is a match, do a more direct compare. I leave the rest of this as an exercise for the reader. Helooo..programmers duh?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! If anyone tries to upload an asset that is exactly like an existing asset created by another user, prevent that upload! It’s a simple database compare. Use hashing algorithms then if there is a match, do a more direct compare. I leave the rest of this as an exercise for the reader. Helooo..programmers duh?

Except that there are full perm mesh creators that sell their DAE files as well.. You would be blocking legal uploads.. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except that there are full perm mesh creators that sell their DAE files as well.. You would be blocking legal uploads.. 

Then LL could also check the original asset’s perms. Or invent new perms to check for this case. If full perms, no problem. Literally nothing is impossible. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Then LL could also check the original asset’s perms. Or invent new perms to check for this case. If full perms, no problem. Literally nothing is impossible. 

Except that a purchasing merchant is not allowed to sell full perm meshes as full perm.. Also, if i add a few micro prims to a full perm mesh dae i bought wouldn't that change the asset info? There are ways around everything. 

[Love Zhaoying]

7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except that a purchasing merchant is not allowed to sell full perm meshes as full perm.. Also, if i add a few micro prims to a full perm mesh dae i bought wouldn't that change the asset info? There are ways around everything. 

No, they could check any portion for matches. For example of how this works, the Spotify app (or is it another?) can identify songs from a 5 second sample anywhere in the song. You underestimate what is possible!

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

No, they could check any portion for matches. For example of how this works, the Spotify app (or is it another?) can identify songs from a 5 second sample anywhere in the song. You underestimate what is possible!

You totally skipped the first portion of my comment... If someone rips a full perm merchants store and then sells them on the MP as full perm items, how is your Logarithm algorithm (stupid phone) supposed to detect whether or not they bought the DAE or not? And before you say they can cross check with the merchants purchase history, there are inworld sales as well.  Ones usually made on a vendor that LL does not have info for. The only cross checking LL can do in MP sales. 

ETA.. I think you are severely overestimating what LL is willing to do. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Drake1 Nightfire
Stupid phone

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You totally skipped the first portion of my comment... If someone rips a full perm merchants store and then sells them on the MP as full perm items, how is your Logarithm supposed to detect whether or not they bought the DAE or not? And before you say they can cross check with the merchants purchase history, there are inworld sales as well.  Ones usually made on a vendor that LL does not have info for. The only cross checking LL can do in MP sales. 

ETA.. I think you are severely overestimating what LL is willing to do. 

The word is “algorithm”.

I didn’t say LL is “willing”, I wrote about what is “possible”.

I did address the full perm issue, I’m sorry you did not understand it. I am not going to explain it again, as I realize you will not understand no matter how detailed I get. Peace!

Edited February 8, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The word is “algorithm”.

I didn’t say LL is “willing”, I wrote about what is “possible”.

I did address the full perm issue, I’m sorry you did not understand it. I am not going to explain it again, as I realize you will not understand no matter how detailed I get. Peace!

Yeah yeah.. Stupid phone...

Still not possible to check what a FP merchant has as a ToU with an algorithm... 

No, you really didn't. You said:

13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Then LL could also check the original asset’s perms. Or invent new perms to check for this case. If full perms, no problem.

That doesn't address the DAE issue. If its legal for me to upload them, but i choose to sell them full perm against the Original creators desires, how is LL to possibly know that? They can't check every item. Plus, that leaves out any items coming from non SL mesh sites. All of those sites have banned upload to SL, yet there is nothing but people reporting them to stop it. So, how would an algorithm stop that? You have to have people in there somewhere. Simple programming is an all or nothing way of doing things. 

 

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

No, they could check any portion for matches. 

Define "any portion." If i use a mesh torus to make a chain, is that enough? Here's a conundrum for you. You and i both have Genetica 4.0 and use the same stock image to make a texture for a full perm mesh pathway we both purchased legally on the MP. Using your algorithm, one of us would have their item pulled as it has the exact same texture, yet neither copied the others work. So, where does that leave LL? Their algorithm pulled a non copied item for the wrong reasons. 

You have to have humans involved, and LL isn't willing to pay for the hundreds of employees to police the MP. Never mind the fact they cant police inworld shops with out going to each and every one. 

[JJ Hoobinoo]

On 1/30/2018 at 11:16 PM, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Please, in your glorious wisdom granted to you by whomever, explain how LL could possibly combat copybotting without closing SL to all but the official LL viewer. I await your divine guidance with baited breath... 

You miss the point as you do any meaningful contribution to this thread.

Did I say, I had or there was an easy solution?

My point is- just like in RL - the corporation will not incur the costs of "fixing" something (employing ppl, creating software or implementing process fixes) unless its starting to cost them money.

 

 

[JJ Hoobinoo]

On 2/6/2018 at 11:12 PM, Chase01 said:

@QuestionMarkk @Drake1 Nightfire

Unfortunately copyright theft is all too common. There are users infringing upon other users original works, and then there are those who are infringing upon the works of others outside of SL and even claiming it to be "original" ... Sometimes, both happen.

QuestionMarkk Outside of trying to expedite the process, LL is doing what is required of them by law. Doing anything beyond that could result in a liability suit.

Talking about the problem is doing something. More creators need to be made aware of the process (you'd be surprised at how many don't) so they can take action if they so desire.

While LL may be doing what is required by law with as to "what" people are selling, they could address the issue by "who" is selling. 

LL could have only verified accounts sell on MP. Yes, amerchant would need to supply rl information against say a credit card. Tada - problem reduced (it will never be gone). 

Don't want to verify? Sell your stuff in-world. Or only have all sales over  200? 500L?1000L? must come from a verified account. But again, without skin in the game, LL wont make rule changes as it creates a barrier to entry for a possible merchant and would cost LL money.

 

 

[Chase01]

4 hours ago, JJ Hoobinoo said:

LL wont make rule changes as it creates a barrier to entry for a possible merchant and would cost LL money.

Being judge, jury and executioner would cost them more money. That point hasn't been disputed and has in fact been agreed upon.

Having payment info on file would not stop the issue; the questionable content would still need to be authenticated. As proof positive of this, there have been brands that were have found to have used external third party content without consent. All of them had payment info on file.

4 hours ago, JJ Hoobinoo said:

While LL may be doing what is required by law

That's right; they are doing what is expected of them by law. There is a process in place for content owners to dispute theft just as much as there is a process for LL to follow should a claim be filed. As the host, they take action. For those not taking action, don't blame LL.

What they could do that would be more practical is to offer more resources on the subject so that more vendors are informed as to the process and understand what their rights are. Why not do a video, or have a sticky here in the merchants section.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

21 hours ago, JJ Hoobinoo said:

You miss the point as you do any meaningful contribution to this thread.

Did I say, I had or there was an easy solution?

My point is- just like in RL - the corporation will not incur the costs of "fixing" something (employing ppl, creating software or implementing process fixes) unless its starting to cost them money.

 

 

You really missed a whole bunch of my posts, didn't you?

So, far you haven't done anything but whine about the process and say it needs fixing. I haven't read a single solution from you.

You really dont have to say "Just like in RL" when talking about this issue. It IS a RL issue. Online theft of any sort is a RL issue. And the only way to actively fix this would be to have only premium members be able to cash out after a year of membership. That would be a huge deterrent to copybotters. I don't honestly know if you can pay your membership with a cash balance on your SL account or if it has to be a credit card/paypal thing. If it has to be a credit card or paypal that s the best option as those have RL info attached. 

[JJ Hoobinoo]

Actually it is relevant that we are in SL and not talking of RL businesses governed by a countries laws. You are in SL and, you and I, are subject to the laws, rules, and process LL enacts for us to play in their sandbox. Your rights are a subset of those of RL. Live with it. 

4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, far you haven't done anything but whine about the process and say it needs fixing. 

Whine? I haven't seen a single "whine" - my comments are based on observational behavior  in SL.  SL is well aware of the issues of copybotting. Fact.

There have been a number of high profile creators leaving SL because of that lack of protection along with court cases. Your wonderful technical solutions and suggestions of premium membership...have been brought up many many times before.However, actions speak louder than words. What has been done by LL in their architecture and processes to protect merchants? Only what the law tells them to do. What rules has LL created to protect its customers? Well, to upload mesh you go through a little test and say the right things. That's a line on the ground not a moat, wall, or a mountain one must climb.

Additionally, I didn't say it needed fixing. I have consistently said all along that LL has no skin in the game to fix the problem outlined by the OP. Yes we can threaten to leave SL, some have, but enough stay to keep the lights on. 

4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I haven't read a single solution from you.

Ahh, that would be where I suggested premium accounts as a means to minimize some of these issues and then you said the same thing in your subsequent paragraph. Do try to keep up.

4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And the only way to actively fix this would be to have only premium members be able to cash out after a year of membership.

Bottom line , it is LL's world. You and I can complain, threaten to leave, or sue them. We can give them "solutions" again and again. Heck we can even start up own worlds and make our own rules.We wouldn't be the first and we wont be the last. But from 10+ years in SL - LL will continue to do what they must by a countries law and very little by their own in-world rules. Not a whine , chuckles, cynical maybe, but I do prefer the label of realist "a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly."

And that's what I do - deal with it.

[Desudesudesuka]

"Creators" on SL ripping from creators on SL is an obvious problem, but there is an even bigger issue of people exploiting content made by creators off SL. It doesn't matter if it's someone's Deviantart, SL store, or a big name company's mesh and textures. Not naming names here but there are some - many, and popular - things which are obviously and openly direct rips from games. There are stores based entirely off of ripping things to resell and blatantly ignoring licensing. People could have uploaded things for free, maybe given attribution, and respected many of the licenses, but being greedy they just do what they want with no consideration for rules or common courtesy. What you should do as a consumer once aware of this, is no longer purchase from these people, and inform friends and others of the offending stores in the hopes they might make the same choice.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Desudesudesuka

[bigmoe Whitfield]

On 2/7/2018 at 4:45 PM, Love Zhaoying said:

Then LL could also check the original asset’s perms. Or invent new perms to check for this case. If full perms, no problem. Literally nothing is impossible. 

and it's not a complicated issue with changing the hashes in a hex editor.  

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 hours ago, Desudesudesuka said:

"Creators" on SL ripping from creators on SL is an obvious problem, but there is an even bigger issue of people exploiting content made by creators off SL. It doesn't matter if it's someone's Deviantart, SL store, or a big name company's mesh and textures. Not naming names here but there are some - many, and popular - things which are obviously and openly direct rips from games. There are stores based entirely off of ripping things to resell and blatantly ignoring licensing. People could have uploaded things for free, maybe given attribution, and respected many of the licenses, but being greedy they just do what they want with no consideration for rules or common courtesy. What you should do as a consumer once aware of this, is no longer purchase from these people, and inform friends and others of the offending stores in the hopes they might make the same choice.

I was talking in a group last night and someone said "If a creator doesnt update their system clothing or skins to use appliers i just rip them and make my own." When we told them this was against the ToS never mind illegal he responded with "It's not illegal if they have left SL. I'm only doing what i would expect anyone to do if i left SL and didnt update my stuff." This was actually echoed by several other people. This mindset is what copybotters have and feed off. The whole, "It should be cheaper, have appliers for, be this color, because i can, because i said so" mindset. I promptly banned them from my land and told my merchant friends about it as well.  Kind of hurt my brain. 

[Fionalein]

Yes drake that is a justification I read in one of the copybot foums as well. I think the problem is a recent court ruling about abbandonware online games allowing folks to fix those games to make them run again. Many people have a hard time differentiating between what "feels right" and what is actual law. I read it even somewhere in the forums that people now hope LL will remove restrictions of items by creators that left SL based on that court ruling. See the problem? The items most often didn't get useless with recent SL updates. No one purchased a software in this case, people just purchased the right to use a digital good in a virtual world. So is it comparable? No. Do people feel it is comparable? Yes.

Same problem with the base assumption of most copybotters. If I buy something in in RL, I'm usually allowed to do whatever I want with it. No one can hold me back unless I do something illegal. People now think it's the same with virtual goods, which of course it isn't. But unfortunatelly this does not stop them feeling "right" about what they do.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Fionalein
spelling

[onyx Kelberry]

Everything you upload in second life has a UUID. It should be pretty simple when original creators supply the first UUID they ever uploaded compared to the dates of the files the thief has.

 

[ChinRey]

7 hours ago, onyx Kelberry said:

Everything you upload in second life has a UUID. It should be pretty simple when original creators supply the first UUID they ever uploaded compared to the dates of the files the thief has.

The UUID is assigned on upload so two different uploads of the same asset will have different UUIDs.

Btw, necroposting isn't usually a good idea here. This one seems fairly ok though.