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Pavon2

A store that constantly sells stolen content.

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There is a store in-world that constantly sells stolen textures. I saw there clothes from at least 5 well knows designers. These people sell only original stuff, it's easy to recognize these products. I wrote all of of them, and two decided to file DMCA against the person. But she keeps selling stolen content. Her English is very bad, but the explenation she gives is always pretty much the same - she bought it as full perm, so she has a right to sell it. My question is... how many times?

How many times DMCA needs to be filled so it finally stopped. Or is it going to be endless? She will steal, they will report her, the content will be removed, and then she will do it again and again and again? Shouldn't there be some limits set? If someone is being reported so many times and keeps doing the same, shouldn't their account be closed permanently? It's so frustrating....

 

 
 

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Unfortunately all you can do is to notify the original creators each time you see that person is selling their content.  It's up to the original creator to file the DMCA take down.
I don't know what the policy is for accounts that frequently have DMCAs filed against them, but I'd hope that if an account has multiple DMCAs that have no counter file, that the account would eventually be banned.
The problem with DMCAs on SL is that they are often filed against the original creator by the thief as a means of griefing. The original creator will then have to counter file.
So banning an account just because it has had a certain number of DMCA notices filed against it is a bad idea - those DMCAs could be fake.
 

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I agree with Whirly, so I am not going to re-iterate any of her points, but I will say that it is possible that the person you are referring too is using full perm products that were stolen from another content creator unbeknownst to them.

It is also equally plausible that they are lying to you. Either way, content creators have an obligation to source the full perm materials they intend to use. Just blindly assuming that the person you purchased those goods from holds license, could have consequences.

All you can do is contact the original content creator and let them know that you saw another vendor using their assets. With that said, I am sure there is some anonymity over what specific action is taken and under what circumstances (threshold). This would be to prevent people from circumventing the system to their advantage.

 

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On 24 September 2017 at 8:34 PM, Pavon2 said:


There is a store in-world that constantly sells stolen textures. I saw there clothes from at least 5 well knows designers. These people sell only original stuff, it's easy to recognize these products. I wrote all of of them, and two decided to file DMCA against the person. But she keeps selling stolen content. Her English is very bad, but the explenation she gives is always pretty much the same - she bought it as full perm, so she has a right to sell it. My question is... how many times?

How many times DMCA needs to be filled so it finally stopped. Or is it going to be endless? She will steal, they will report her, the content will be removed, and then she will do it again and again and again? Shouldn't there be some limits set? If someone is being reported so many times and keeps doing the same, shouldn't their account be closed permanently? It's so frustrating....


 

 

 

It needs to be mentioned that just because YOU think the items are 'stolen' does not in fact mean they are.

I've seen all too often, inexperienced people screaming that Store X is copybotting Store Y because a) they sell stuff that looks almost the same and b) sell it cheaper and c) Store Y "only uses original stuff".

But when you actually check you simply find that Both Store X AND Store Y AND Stores A,B,C,D,E and F all use Full Perm Template from Vendor Z.

If YOU think something is stolen, tell the people YOU think it's stolen from, after that, it's not YOUR problem.

If THEY choose not to DMCA, that's a pretty fair indication you were wrong, let it go, and move on.

If THEY attempt to DMCA, and their DMCA's fail, see above, move on.

You have done your part, now it's out of your hands.
 

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5 hours ago, Klytyna said:

It needs to be mentioned that just because YOU think the items are 'stolen' does not in fact mean they are.

I've seen all too often, inexperienced people screaming that Store X is copybotting Store Y because a) they sell stuff that looks almost the same and b) sell it cheaper and c) Store Y "only uses original stuff".

But when you actually check you simply find that Both Store X AND Store Y AND Stores A,B,C,D,E and F all use Full Perm Template from Vendor Z.

If YOU think something is stolen, tell the people YOU think it's stolen from, after that, it's not YOUR problem.

If THEY choose not to DMCA, that's a pretty fair indication you were wrong, let it go, and move on.

If THEY attempt to DMCA, and their DMCA's fail, see above, move on.

You have done your part, now it's out of your hands.
 

I am trying to help and I feel attacked. I wouldn't write it if I didn't know FOR SURE. I also wouldn't let the original creators know, if I didn't know FOR SURE. 

This is very easy to know if you know the market. Also the number of people who sell original stuff isn't that big after all. 

The DMCA that were sent did not fail, as you assume, these items were removed by Linden Lab.

And this is not MY problem, this is all creators' problem, if you are a creator it might be your problem too one day. I don't wish you that. But I guess, then, you would hope to have someone letting you know about what's going on with your products you worked on for weeks.

The problem with people stealing stuff and selling it as full perm is huge. One gets reported, another one appears and so on. 

 

Edited by Pavon2

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Hello, since mesh the re-selling of premades has exploded and thus makes it hard to trace copybotted items.

I understand your frustration that stolen items cannot be removed quicker and the thief won´t be punished harder but as said by others
it´s not that easy today to separate the good from the bad.

A lot creators (real creators), not just "retexture resell" because they only own the texture, can/want not go the way of DMCA.

If you live outside the US it´s pointless. If the thief lives outside, it´s pointless. Thinking that the US law applies to the whole world is pointless.

Report it to the original creator and try to forget, or that will make your SL just a hate place!

Monti

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2 hours ago, Monti Messmer said:

If you live outside the US it´s pointless. If the thief lives outside, it´s pointless. Thinking that the US law applies to the whole world is pointless.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you actually know much about the process. DMCA can be filed by non-US citizens and it DOES work.

I never wrote that DMCA doesn't work. It does work. Linden Lab. really does their job well in this case (to all thieves out there, read it twice).

 

Thing I'm pointing to since the very beginning, as former creator, but now mainly as someone who hates seeing the same happening to others, is that something should be done with people who do that repeatedly, even though they were reported before by the original creators, even though their products were taken down few times in the past. 

And really, please stop the nit-picking. I'm not a new person, products that have been reported were made by people who create only original stuff, they were taken down, DMCA was filed by people who had a full right to do so, a well know creators. I can't believe I have to explain that even. You are attacking me and not seeing the real problem, which is a very real and very serious problem in SL nowadays. 

 

Edited by Pavon2

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21 hours ago, iamyourneighbour said:

DMCA without warning, if you warn them first they will take it down or change the content or DMCA you first.

Actually totally agree with that. Yes.

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On 9/30/2017 at 6:49 AM, Pavon2 said:

You are attacking me and not seeing the real problem, which is a very real and very serious problem in SL nowadays. 

First time I had problems with MY creations being pirated, was more than 12 years ago... I ended up being told i should apologise to some <MODERATOR EDIT: Profanity Removed> who included MY work, a frebie with a 'no commercial distribution' eula, in one of her 'store products' on a Poser Content webstore...

So, I know exactly what it feels like, I simply pointed out the basic realities of SL and the DMCA process.

YOU can't punish people for stealing MY work, all you can do is tell me you think it's stolen, and then GO AWAY AND GET ON WITH YOUR SLIFE.

Once you've told ME, about MY work being stolen, it's no longer your concern or responsibility.

LL have strict rules about who can file a DMCA and expect LL to enforce it.

The Reason for this is really simple, DMCA is a bad law, poorly concieved by people who didn't understand the realities of what they were legislating, it's almost as bad as the Orphan Works Bill, that thankfully didnt make it onto the statute books, that would have legalised the theft of digital art from Non Americans, by Large American companies.

There have been problems in the past with FRAUDULENT DMCA's, where people used dummy id's false names etc., to file DMCA's to close down legal competitors. THAT is why LL is so picky about who it accepts 'theft' accusations from, and how it deals with them.

if YOU have a problem with this, write to your appointed "Kapitol-Hill Kongress Klown, and demand they support the repeal of the DMCA bill, and it's replacement with something less prone to abuse.
 

Edited by Dakota Linden
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Community_Participation_Guidelines

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On 9/30/2017 at 12:25 PM, Klytyna said:

First time I had problems with MY creations being pirated, was more than 12 years ago... I ended up being told i should apologise to some <MODERATOR EDIT: PROFANITY REMOVED> who included MY work, a frebie with a 'no commercial distribution' eula, in one of her 'store products' on a Poser Content webstore...

So, I know exactly what it feels like, I simply pointed out the basic realities of SL and the DMCA process.

YOU can't punish people for stealing MY work, all you can do is tell me you think it's stolen, and then GO AWAY AND GET ON WITH YOUR SLIFE.

Once you've told ME, about MY work being stolen, it's no longer your concern or responsibility.

LL have strict rules about who can file a DMCA and expect LL to enforce it.

The Reason for this is really simple, DMCA is a bad law, poorly concieved by people who didn't understand the realities of what they were legislating, it's almost as bad as the Orphan Works Bill, that thankfully didnt make it onto the statute books, that would have legalised the theft of digital art from Non Americans, by Large American companies.

There have been problems in the past with FRAUDULENT DMCA's, where people used dummy id's false names etc., to file DMCA's to close down legal competitors. THAT is why LL is so picky about who it accepts 'theft' accusations from, and how it deals with them.

if YOU have a problem with this, write to your appointed "Kapitol-Hill Kongress Klown, and demand they support the repeal of the DMCA bill, and it's replacement with something less prone to abuse.
 

Dear Klytyna, you are reading without comprehension (or I didn't make myself entirely clear).

My original message wasn't about me wanting to "punish people" for someone eles's stolen work.

My text wasn't about taking responsibility for putting down every stolen work in SL. I am an honest person and I will report it to original creators, but I'm fully aware here's where my role ends.

My original text wasn't about me not knowing I can not file a DMCA for someone else, I know that very well. Only the original creator can do that.

My original message wasn't me complain of how bad law DMCA is, although we might find some common ground in out opinions here. 

What I was saying, and I would recommend reading it again, maybe this time without jumping on all kinds of conclusions, completely unnecessary, was that accounts which have well documented history of stealing other people's content (DMCAs which were filed not from fake IPs, for trolling others, but by real people, original creators, whos work have been stolen) should be closed much more often than it happens now, because, in most of these cases, they are doing it again and again and again and they will continue doing it. That's what the text was about.

 

 

Edited by Dakota Linden
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Community_Participation_Guidelines

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1 hour ago, Pavon2 said:

Dear Klytyna, you are reading without comprehension (or I didn't make myself entirely clear).

I have no problems with comprehension, and you were perfectly clear, you did your 'civic duty' as a 'concerned citizen' and 'informed' on a 'criminal', to 5 'victims' 2 of whome filed DMCA's successfully, 3 of whom did not, if your post is accurate.

It's clear that you have taken it personally that you only got a 40% success rate in your 'accusations' against the 'criminal' and are intent on blowing this up in some 'vital issue that we must all address' drama-fest, with 'outrage' in 'the community' etc., etc., etc.

You did your part, let it go, move along. If the 'criminal' is still there, it's because LL say they can be, which means LL do not believe they have sufficient reason to ban them at this time.

If you wish to spend your days camped out side their store, camming in to check the new products, so you can 'inform' on them again, untill they are finally banned from SL, feel free to do so, but forget the 'petition' on the forums, it's pointless.
 

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DMCA process takes by Linden Lab:

  1. Notice received, item removed
  2. Wait two weeks for counter claim
  3. If no counter claim is filed, process ends here
  4. If counter claim is filed, item is restored pending litigation
  5. Wait for court ruling
  6. If court rules in favor of original claimant, remove item again and if not then item remains

Most people will not bother to file a counter claim as that requires both parties to submit their real life information and most people simply do not have the resources for a court case.

All of this information is easily enough obtained if you bother to look for it or read SL related forums.

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To be more precise it is more like this

1. Notice received from claimant, item removed

2. No counter claim, process ends here

3. Counter claim received, now wait 2 weeks for claimant to send proof of court action.

4. No court notice received from original claimant, item restored after 2 weeks. Process ends here.

5. Court notice received within 2 weeks, item stays unlisted pending litigation.

Counter claimant has to give real life info, which is then given to claimant for court purposes.

It is the original claimant who needs to take court action, not the counter claimant.

 

Edited by Rya Nitely

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I have a gacha re-sell store and I could point out at least three store that are selling copybotted gacha items. Yes, it's POSSIBLE that I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to bet my store on it. Anyone that pays any attention to the gacha market could pick them out after a while. (Spotting copybotted gacha items is far easier.) I have contacted a few of the creators and they seem universally uninterested in the copybotting. All of them told me some variation of, "It's too big a hassle to have it taken down and, even if I did, they would just open a new store and do it again."

This is an issue that will never be resolved because the only people that could resolve it, the content creators, don't seem too interested in it. About the only thing that most of us could do would be to buy one of the items and then leave a review saying that it's ripped, copybotted, whatever.

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22 hours ago, Fantasy Eternal said:

I have a gacha re-sell store and I could point out at least three store that are selling copybotted gacha items. Yes, it's POSSIBLE that I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to bet my store on it. Anyone that pays any attention to the gacha market could pick them out after a while. (Spotting copybotted gacha items is far easier.) I have contacted a few of the creators and they seem universally uninterested in the copybotting. All of them told me some variation of, "It's too big a hassle to have it taken down and, even if I did, they would just open a new store and do it again."

This is an issue that will never be resolved because the only people that could resolve it, the content creators, don't seem too interested in it. About the only thing that most of us could do would be to buy one of the items and then leave a review saying that it's ripped, copybotted, whatever.

I do not agree with this opinion. 3/4 of the creators I talked with actually did file DMCA and the stolen items were taken down. These who chose not to do anything may not be realizing how the whole process of taking down stolen stuff actually works. Two times I came across  an opinion that one needs to pay 200$USD to file DMCA, only because the first website that pops out on Google is some lawyer's website who does offer doing that for you and indeed wants 200$USD for that, but if you do it yourself it doesn't cost a thing. A lot of people really don't know that. Which is a pity. 

Edited by Pavon2
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I think what drives the lack of action is more the comment - "All of them told me some variation of, "It's too big a hassle to have it taken down and, even if I did, they would just open a new store and do it again."

Yes I have seen content removed and scam stores closed...only to be opened again in slightly different names in days. the result then to the process by real merchants  is summed up by one word "apathy".

 

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4 hours ago, JJ Hoobinoo said:

I think what drives the lack of action is more the comment - "All of them told me some variation of, "It's too big a hassle to have it taken down and, even if I did, they would just open a new store and do it again."

Yes I have seen content removed and scam stores closed...only to be opened again in slightly different names in days. the result then to the process by real merchants  is summed up by one word "apathy".

 

We still need to fight it. No matter how many times they appear - ALWAYS REPORT. I will also always inform original content creators if I see their product stolen, and I think everyone should do the same. Creators should stick together in that matter. This is the only way. And report, report, report as many times as it's needed. 

Edited by QuestionMarkk

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The reality of the situation is it's LL "sandbox " that we play in and LL makes the rules.  Not only that but they decide upon the resource allocation to fix, to police, and enforce their rules.

Those rules will not change until one crucial thing happens. - and its not you, me ,or anyone else "fighting" this beast. 

Meaningful action will only occur when the great sandbox owner finds that it costs LL ( not creators) more NOT to take action, than TO actually take action. And we are simply not at that point yet as illustrated by the observable behavior of ineffective action over SLs many years with sandbox players "fights" on this issue.

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51 minutes ago, JJ Hoobinoo said:

Meaningful action will only occur when the great sandbox owner finds that it costs LL ( not creators) more NOT to take action, than TO actually take action.

Ah.  So Linden Leadership Team apathy.  Gotcha.

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3 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Ah.  So Linden Leadership Team apathy.  Gotcha.

Nope Its a corporation doing whats best for its owners.

 Its corporate greed and end-user apathy

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6 hours ago, JJ Hoobinoo said:

The reality of the situation is it's LL "sandbox " that we play in and LL makes the rules.  Not only that but they decide upon the resource allocation to fix, to police, and enforce their rules.

Those rules will not change until one crucial thing happens. - and its not you, me ,or anyone else "fighting" this beast. 

Meaningful action will only occur when the great sandbox owner finds that it costs LL ( not creators) more NOT to take action, than TO actually take action. And we are simply not at that point yet as illustrated by the observable behavior of ineffective action over SLs many years with sandbox players "fights" on this issue.

Please, in your glorious wisdom granted to you by whomever, explain how LL could possibly combat copybotting without closing SL to all but the official LL viewer. I await your divine guidance with baited breath... 

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18 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Please, in your glorious wisdom granted to you by whomever, explain how LL could possibly combat copybotting without closing SL to all but the official LL viewer.

There is no such thing as foolproof security because every time somebody builds a better security system, somebody else will build better fools.

But Linden Lab can amend and enforce their Third Party Viewer Policy if they want to. I'm not saying it's a good idea, only that it is possible.

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