What do you think?

[Phil Deakins]

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Min Barzane wrote:

Everyone on planet is capable to make a cake! Ill give 100 ppl all ingreedients,all stuff they need to make exactly same cake! How manny will actualy make it? Maybe  5! And thats with using writen recepie! Same is with mesh! Anyone can download program for creating it but how manny ppl will acualy have knowlige and talent to make it! From 100 ppl maybe 1!

We all have 2 arms,2 legs,same body anatomy,we are capable of same motions but can we all do same things? NO!

So no, not everyone in SL can make mesh even if they choose to! I can,can you?

And yes i know how it works!

---

Anyone can make meshes if they want to. There is nothing you can do with your arms and legs that any able-bodied person cannot do. You may be able to jump higher, or run faster, but every able-bodied personn can jump and run. And that's the point. Everyone can have a go at making meshes. They may not make good ones but they can make them. That's what SL is about. We all have the abilities if we want to try using them. We are all equal in that respect. The suggestion to limit certain abilities to just a relatively small number of people is contrary to what SL actually is.

Users are not here to create incredibly good stuff. Users are here to create whatever they can and what they want, if they want to create anything at all, that is. We are not creating a super-duper professional world. We are creating our world.

[Min Barzane]

I didnt say anywhere to limit any abilities to anyone! I sayed that well known creators,long lasting buisnesses with good reputation should get more Lindens atention!

Making mesh isnt just uploading default box from blender! Same as building isnt just rezzing a box! Some ppl have knowlige of making mesh but they dont have talent! You need both to make anyitng good! Its not just "rezz a box" thing Not all ppl can do it! If everyone in Sl could build,texture or make mesh there woudlnt be any buyers,no income,noting to sell cos everyone  would make their own stuff! But they dont! There is big difference between your every day resident and a creator!

 

But hat all is becinde the point!  Question was and still is "WILL LL EVER DO ANYTHNG TO STOP COPYBOTERS/CONTENT THEFT? WHAT DO YOU THINK? "

 

Yes? No? maybe

 

[Ceka Cianci]

my opinion is they may try but will fail,because SL was made open source.

[Perrie Juran]

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Min Barzane wrote:

I didnt say anywhere to limit any abilities to anyone! I sayed that well known

creators

MERCHANTS, long lasting buisnesses with good reputation should get more Lindens atention!

 

---

First off I 'fixed' something in your post because unless I am mistaken, that is whom you are really talking about. But moving forward......

More attention than whom?  I'll maintain that as a long time user I should get more attention than you.  Because it is my dollar that you get your ride on here.

 

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Making mesh isnt just uploading default box from blender! Same as building isnt just rezzing a box! Some ppl have knowlige of making mesh but they dont have talent! You need both to make anyitng good! Its not just "rezz a box" thing Not all ppl can do it! If everyone in Sl could build,texture or make mesh there woudlnt be any buyers,no income,noting to sell cos everyone  would make their own stuff! But they dont! There is big difference between your every day resident and a

creator

MERCHANT!

 

---

 

And this somehow makes you special?  I do admire and respect those who have the talent to do what you do.  But the fact that you build with MESH and I build with PRIMS does not make either one of us any more or less special than the other.  But if anything, your post reinforces what I said above, the BUYER is more important than the MERCHANT.

 

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 But hat all is becinde the point!  Question was and still is "WILL LL EVER DO ANYTHNG TO STOP COPYBOTERS/CONTENT THEFT? WHAT DO YOU THINK? "

 

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The day they decide that Second Life is no longer about "Your World, Your Imagination."

 

 

There really is nothing they can do to "STOP" it.  SL is simply to big.  Maybe they can do some things better in order to hinder it.  But as I said earlier, I haven't heard a viable solution offered outside of decisive action against those who have valid DMCA's filed against them that wouldn't negatively impact me as the average user.  So who do we vote for, the User or the Merchant?

 

[Qie Niangao]

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Min Barzane wrote:

Question was and still is "WILL LL EVER DO ANYTHNG TO STOP COPYBOTERS/CONTENT THEFT? WHAT DO YOU THINK? "

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They already did: they crippled Mesh.

Unlike every other object type, Mesh has no layer of abstraction between the model and the instance. The result is that every other object type can be changed into any other object type without losing the identity of the object. With Mesh, you're stuck: it is always Mesh; even worse, it must remain always the same model.

This was done to placate creators crazy about protecting their precious intellectual property. The result is the increasingly static, "behold the pretty pixels" Second Life.

Happy now?

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Yeah this is not going to happen, LL knows content creators need the ability to backup their creations, if you were to put a stop to that, you would kill the economy, people would leave, it's that simple.  

 

2nd, to phil and others, that official viewer (cringe) I will not use until they get rid of chui, they dump it, I'll go back, only reason for not using LL viewer.

[Min Barzane]

Prims are mesh! Avatars are mesh! From day 1 od SL! Cube is always a cube,no mater how much you strch,twist and retexture it!ITS A CUBE! You missed the point btw!

[Johan Laurasia]

A cube is not a cube.  I can create an SL cube, or I can go into blender and export a cube.  The difference is the number of verts.  A mesh cube needs only the required 8 to make a cube.  An SL cube needs 24, because each face requires 4 verts (so you can texture individual faces).  With mesh, I can uv unwrap the mesh and make 1 texture to texture all 6 sides at once.  Both can look identical, but the mesh cube will carry far less impact than 1 prim.

 

What it boils down to is, if you want your wares to be visible to others, no matter what, that information must be transfered to my viewer, hence, my machine, and with enough digging, copybotters can collect that information regardless of what fences LL puts up.

[Drew Bhalti]

You really do not even need to dig.  there are tools out there.  simple to find too.   even if they "blocked it" there are other tools that can read the video card directly and can pull whats in it's memory,   and if that person suggest "streaming service"  heh like onlive, sorry the information is still there and can still be grabbed.   There is nothing that can he 100% to take care of this "issue"  

[Qie Niangao]

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Min Barzane wrote:

Prims are mesh! Avatars are mesh! From day 1 od SL! Cube is always a cube,no mater how much you strch,twist and retexture it!ITS A CUBE! You missed the point btw!

---

You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

On the off chance you take the time to figure it out, the castration of SL's Mesh representation isn't the first time the Lindens have reduced SL functionality in a misguided attempt to placate IP-paranoid creators. For example, watch what happens to the contents when you paint a no-transfer texture on the face of any object. That's how the no-transfer permission on the texture is viral to the object. Now ponder the real effect of that design decision: there is no practical market for textures except full-perm, and no practical way to sell full-perm textures without an End User License Agreement.

The point? Be careful what you wish for, lest the result even further diminish the world.

And just in passing: There is a way to defeat copybotting, and that's by dumping the viewer altogether and doing all rendering server-side, like OnLive's SLGo. Not very practical, and once end-users rented the rendering service and the bandwidth there'd be little left to pay for user-generated content. but that content would be ever so safe.

[Dresden Ceriano]

One side will always be clamouring for more regulation, for fear that not enough will leave people unprotected; the other side will always be clamouring for less regulation, for fear that too much will stifle growth.  Neither side is wrong in their belief... the solution lies somewhere in between.  This is the situation with which LL has to contend.  We will forever be subject to watching the pendulum swing back and forth between the two.  As long as it doesn't swing too far in one direction, we'll be alright.

...Dres

[Min Barzane]

So in end what all of you are saying noting can and will be done to prevent or atleast slow down copybotters??? Only thing to do is hope you wont get hit and if you do  file DMCA and hope for best?

[Min Barzane]

Mesh cube or any mesh for that matter cant carry "far less than 1 prim" ! Just half less or half prim land impact! Prim cube is just mesh cube with more verts than it actualy needs,noting more! Mapping is story for itself! But in end it all comes to prim cube IS mesh! 3d model! Mesh is just name for 3d models  thats used in SL to be different than everyone else! Sculpts are also mesh,3d models! Prims,sculpts,mesh...all 3d models made from same thing,vertecies,edges and faces!

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Will Lindens EVER do anyting to stop copyboters???

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8 years later and still the same questions... How about no for the same answer?

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

This was done to placate creators crazy about protecting their precious intellectual property. The result is the increasingly static, "behold the pretty pixels" Second Life.

Happy now?

---

 This made me chuckle

[Min Barzane]

"This was done to placate creators crazy about protecting their precious intellectual property. The result is the increasingly static, "behold the pretty pixels" Second Life." 

WTF??? It is not matter of IP rights! It is matter of theft! What if i come to your house RL and take your TV? Or take your jewlery? Or empty your fridge? Will you call cops? Will you?? Yes! Wel with attitude you have all i would have to say to cops is that you are paranoid and property doent matter! You come to my house and try taking someting ill shot ya!

Digital ownership is same as Rl ownership! Copybotters came to my "house" and stole whats myne! Difference is irl i can have alarms,locks on doors n stuff!Theif IRL wont make an alt and come again! Once he is in jail hes is in jail! In SL its completly different story! No alarms,no locks on doors,no way of stopping theifs! Why? becouse LL dosent give us an tools to protect ourselves! Its all open doors!

And no i am not just  paranoicd IP property crazy creator! Try burning a movie,if you get cought lets see how much will you pay in fines! I am not any different from movie company,or game company! My intelectual property is MYNE! You steal from me ,you get cought,you pay for damage done! End of story!

[Tari Landar]

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Min Barzane wrote:

 

And no i am not just  paranoicd IP property crazy creator! Try burning a movie,if you get cought lets see how much will you pay in fines! I am not any different from movie company,or game company! My intelectual property is MYNE! You steal from me ,you get cought,you pay for damage done! End of story!

---

Quite true, that's what DMCA process is there for, however, to help you protect what is yours. In that right, it works much in the same as locks, alarms, due process when something is stolen for botht he thief and victim, etc...

To answer your OP, no I do not believe LL will do anything more, at least not now.  As others have said, thus far, I have not seen any valid answers that can truly solve the problem of copybotting or eliminate it entirely, without creating other issues(like, for example, breaking the TOS itself, making it all non-open source, etc..)  I, too, would love to see suggestions, but honestly I have watched the problem since it's inception and have not really seen any solutions other than those that already exist.

I do understand your frustration as both a creator(and not j ust within sl) and resident of sl.  I also understand that most people wish LL could and would do more.  However what I also understand is that, as of yet, there isn't a "more" they can really do, again, without creating other problems that will then need solutions.

Do you have any solutions that would work better than what we have already? That is an honest question, I promise I'm not just being a smartbutt here.  I know I don't have any solutions, but I would be interested in reading ones that can, or even will potentially work for all residents of sl(creators and non-creators alike).

Copying/botting/stealing, or whatever we would like to call is is not exclusive to sl, it happens all over, online and off. How it is dealt with can vary depending on the situation, but sl is quite far from the only palce where the "solution"(if we can call it that) does not necessarily always seem very effective, or at least does not always placate the victim of said theft. I have had works stolen, copied, sold and other such things on more than one occasion. In that I include rl products that ARE quite protected in every way possible. It is a pain in the butt to deal with, but I still continue trucking along as a creator/inventor/merchant in sl, elsewhere online, and in rl.  I utilize the tools that are available to me, to the best of my ability, and will continue using them until, and unless, somethign better comes along.  Maybe in the future better protections all across the globe will exist, but right now, we use what we have. It's not always the best solution, but it IS better than no solution at all. Although, that may make me sound like I am complacent, or even content with the solutions available, I'm not always, I can promise you that, lol. I just try and do the best I can with what I've got, until life gives me better. I look at these kinds of issues the same way.  Much like I would any type of "crime", as it were...the solution, and even punishment, does not always fit my ideal, but it is better than nothing...until better comes along.

[Phil Deakins]

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Min Barzane wrote:

I didnt say anywhere to limit any abilities to anyone! I sayed that well known creators,long lasting buisnesses with good reputation should get more Lindens atention!

My mistake. I went back to check and, if I understand what you wrote, you meant something like, the best creators who have a good reputation, etc. should be able to upload more cheaply than others. If I understood correctly, it would be bad, imo, to make some people more equal than others in that way, but it could happen. A few years ago, there was talk about creators being registered, and only registered people allowed to upload, or something like that. It may have been about the upcoming mesh. I didn't take too much notice. But the idea of making some people more equal than others was talked about by LL. It could happen.

 

Making mesh isnt just uploading default box from blender! Same as building isnt just rezzing a box! Some ppl have knowlige of making mesh but they dont have talent! You need both to make anyitng good! Its not just "rezz a box" thing Not all ppl can do it! If everyone in Sl could build,texture or make mesh there woudlnt be any buyers,no income,noting to sell cos everyone  would make their own stuff! But they dont! There is big difference between your every day resident and a creator!

I covered this in the post you replied to. Quality is totally irrelevant. I won't go back over it, because it's still there if you want to read it, and it was a response to something you didn't say, so it's pointless continuing this bit.

 

But hat all is becinde the point!  Question was and still is "WILL LL EVER DO ANYTHNG TO STOP COPYBOTERS/CONTENT THEFT? WHAT DO YOU THINK? "

 Yes? No? maybe

 

None of the above. My answer is "dunno".

---

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

my opinion is they may try but will fail,because SL was made open source.

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The viewer - not the server.

[Phil Deakins]

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Min Barzane wrote:

WTF??? It is not matter of IP rights! It is matter of theft! What if i come to your house RL and take your TV? Or take your jewlery? Or empty your fridge? Will you call cops? Will you?? Yes! Wel with attitude you have all i would have to say to cops is that you are paranoid and property doent matter! You come to my house and try taking someting ill shot ya!

---

Yes I would call the police if you came to my RL house and stole my TV and/or any of the other things mentioned. If you stole my TV, I wouldn't have a TV. And that's the difference. If you stole my mesh TV, I would still have a mesh TV, because you only stole a copy of it. Yes it would be theft, but it's copyright theft.

[Min Barzane]

 DMCA isnt alarm bell or a lock,nothing even close to it! Alarms and clocks are ment to  stop and warn BEFORE theft! DMCA is only use AFTER theft and AFTER theif has been cought! "What we need is shoot to kill defense before actual theft hapens! Theif uses ilegal viewer,SL server detects it and sends "fry graphics" or some other equaly nasty thing to thefs computer! Barbicue!!! btw idk is that possible but would be sweet if it was!

" None of the above. My answer is "dunno"." 

That  is type of answer i was looking for,not all other  BS you and others wrote!

[Min Barzane]

And you did understand wrong! I didnt say creators with good reputation should upload cheper  or anything like that! What we should have is more atention from LL,so they finaly listen what is being sayed! They dont even try to work with us to make SL better,less laggy or more secure!!

[Min Barzane]

Copyboter steals my mesh TV,one i created and own IP rights to,one i sell in my shop and make RL money from it! Copyboter than also sells it for 10% and less than i do,or just gives it away full perm just to damage my income! So no its not ONLY copyright theft but money theft! Copybotters dont steal "copy" of anyhitng,they rip and upload under their own name and claim ownership than sell or give away to damage you as much as they can!

[Tari Landar]

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Min Barzane wrote:

 DMCA isnt alarm bell or a lock,nothing even close to it! Alarms and clocks are ment to  stop and warn BEFORE theft! DMCA is only use AFTER theft and AFTER theif has been cought! "What we need is shoot to kill defense before actual theft hapens! Theif uses ilegal viewer,SL server detects it and sends "fry graphics" or some other equaly nasty thing to thefs computer! Barbicue!!! btw idk is that possible but would be sweet if it was!

" 

None of the above. My answer is "dunno".

" 

That  is type of answer i was looking for,not all other  BS you and others wrote!

---

Alarms and locks don't stop theft either, they are merely a hinderance for a thief, but certainly cannot prevent it entirely. In fact, in most cases, they don't stop theft at all.

[Min Barzane]

Alarms and locks won stop prefesional theif but they wil stop a noob who just got his hands on a lockpick and thats exactly what 99% of copybotters are,bored ppl who just got their hands on bot viewer and go around with it window shopping! re ppl who need to be stopped ! Pro theifs wont stop no matter how hard lock is to pick or alarm hard to disable! And they wont get cought!