Min Barzane Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Will Lindens EVER do anyting to stop copyboters??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: Will Lindens EVER do anyting to stop copyboters??? Is this a rhetorical question? Really, what is it that you think they can do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Toxx Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: Will Lindens EVER do anyting to stop copyboters??? Such as...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 LL will not disable the ability to copy an item using scripts or a viewer because it does have legit uses for creators. Unless the digital copyright laws change, there will be no change in LL's policy.. Right now the burden of protecting a copyright falls on the copyright owner. They have to file the DMCA notice before LL removes the content. This is how the US laws work and LL is a US company. To change this the RL laws have to change. However, if LL were made responsible for tracking down and removing illegal content this opens a whole new can of worms regarding liability that they don't have now. You can be sure that all web site companies that would be effected would lobby against it. I myself don't feel its a good idea to make LL judge and jury. There are some creators that hold legit licenses to reproduce things in SL. All that said, I wish that if a DMCA is filed and the copyright owner legally proves under the law they hold the copyright that the copybotter would always receive a permanent ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Barzane Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 Answering question with question shows how much you care! What they CAN do is completly remove ability of viewer to export anything directly in source code (that you can get directly from LL website) ,that way not even 3rd party viewers could be exploted to make copybot enabled viewers! Block any old viewers! MAC bann all known copybotters! And trust me LL knows who they are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Kanto Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I wish LL would decide they want to at least try to do something. Everyone should understand that in part what made SL an interesting place where people wanted to be was creators and the ability of creative people to develop successful businesses here based on their artistic and creative abilities. Now... there is very little "new" here. Almost all of the good creators have left feeling it's not worth it to see their hard work constantly stolen and feeling LL encourages such theft with policies that favor the thieves in an apparent misguided belief that having more cheap content easily available is a good thing for their grid. The fact they do nothing about content theft beyond what they legally are forced to do does not mean there is nothing more that they could do. Instead of spending much of their time and resources breaking things that once worked, they could put more effort into shutting down programs that allow no copy items to be copied. Perhaps it's time to end the open source nature of SL. They could at the very least put some of their resources to actually helping creators bring copy bot users to court and recover damages, instead of making it harder for creators to do such. They could, when a copybotter is identified, make sure they show they do not tolerate such activity on their grid by punishing them finacially. They change their TOS when it suits them to do so, why not a change to TOS that says if you're caught copybotting you'll be fined $10,000 for each offense (or whatever maximum amount they could justify) and then bringing violators to court themselves to enforce their TOS and show they're serious? Perhaps that isn't practical in every case... but don't tell me for one minute there isn't anything LL can do. LL sayng they can do nothing about it is clearly just an excuse to justify inaction and their inability to see this as a problem and do something more than provide lip service is a major factor driving people away from Second Life. As the title says..... that's what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltar Torok Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 every person who uses a copy bot program is jeopardizing what has made Sl great ,those who can build build those who cant (me lol) buy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Message was lost in transit from my phone. Short of incorpoarating ssp encryption people will be able to copybot and introducing that would create lag most would consider unacceptable. What linden could perhaps do more on is tracking and returning profits made from copyright theft and supporting copyright holders with more advice on how to enforce their legal rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Even those using a copybot program to back up their own creations after a HD failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: Answering question with question shows how much you care! Bull Dinky What they CAN do is completly remove ability of viewer to export anything directly in source code (that you can get directly from LL website) ,that way not even 3rd party viewers could be exploted to make copybot enabled viewers! Once an item is rendered by your graphics card it can be copied. What does source code have to do with it? Block any old viewers! Viewer ID's can be spoofed. The only option would be to ban all TPV's and only make available an official viewer with a secure authentication code....and even that could be cracked. MAC bann all known copybotters! Determined and competent copybotters know quite readily how to get around this. And trust me LL knows who they are! And just how does LL know who they are? I'll agree that infringing accounts, one's that have unchallenged DMCA's filed against them should be terminated swiftly. ETA: All these things have been hashed over dozens of times. My response does not mean that I am not sympathetic to the problems content creators face. I think it sucks that you need to have to take the time to police your own products. But I have yet to see a proposal that wouldn't require a major change in the way Second Life works that wouldn't be an impediment to the whole concept of "Your World, Your Imagination." I'm just an average user. If I had to wait for LL to vet everything I do in order for me to build "My World, My Imagination," than that world would vanish. I wish I knew a viable solution. I really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Richie Kanto wrote: I wish LL would decide they want to at least try to do something. Everyone should understand that in part what made SL an interesting place where people wanted to be was creators and the ability of creative people to develop successful businesses here based on their artistic and creative abilities. Now... there is very little "new" here. Almost all of the good creators have left feeling it's not worth it to see their hard work constantly stolen and feeling LL encourages such theft with policies that favor the thieves in an apparent misguided belief that having more cheap content easily available is a good thing for their grid. The fact they do nothing about content theft beyond what they legally are forced to do does not mean there is nothing more that they could do. Instead of spending much of their time and resources breaking things that once worked, they could put more effort into shutting down programs that allow no copy items to be copied. Perhaps it's time to end the open source nature of SL. They could at the very least put some of their resources to actually helping creators bring copy bot users to court and recover damages, instead of making it harder for creators to do such. They could, when a copybotter is identified, make sure they show they do not tolerate such activity on their grid by punishing them finacially. They change their TOS when it suits them to do so, why not a change to TOS that says if you're caught copybotting you'll be fined $10,000 for each offense (or whatever maximum amount they could justify) and then bringing violators to court themselves to enforce their TOS and show they're serious? Perhaps that isn't practical in every case... but don't tell me for one minute there isn't anything LL can do. LL sayng they can do nothing about it is clearly just an excuse to justify inaction and their inability to see this as a problem and do something more than provide lip service is a major factor driving people away from Second Life. As the title says..... that's what I think I agree with you about banning for life those that are proved guilty of this. But it must be a court of law that decides someone is guilty As for the fine, how would LL fine someone and collect without RL information? Ending open source viewers is not acceptable because it would end TPV and more people use them than the official viewer. It would drive people out of SL that must use them because they can't afford to upgrade their computer so it can handle the official viewer. LL could not bring them to court themselves, IMO, as the judge would probably rule they have no legal standing since they don't own the copyright regardless of the TOS. Besides who would bear the costs? You and everyone else would. LL could do a lot more, however it would open them up to a lot of liability which means law suits and lawyers and those costs would be passed on to everyone via higher tiers, higher costs for premium membership and or higher fees to upload, form groups etc.. They would not be insignificant. The flaw is in the laws but when congress took a shot at them, they ended up proposing things that that were too draconian for the victims and companies such as LL forcing many to shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Barzane Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 "As for the fine, how would LL fine someone and collect without RL information? " Well Amethyst LL does have RL info thru payment info required for anyone who uploads mesh and thats what todays copyboters do! How does lets say Turbosquid solve copyright infrigements,they have legal team that does all paperwork in behalf of their users/creators! LL could do same! SL is online service,on internet you can track anything,nothing can be raly hidden! If LL cant or doesnt know how to track down copybotters or ilegal viewers hire someone who knows how,hire a hacker for pete sakes! Someone with long lasting reputation as creator and who knows how much money spent on uploads,buisness with good standing reputation should have some advantiges over every day SL user! Creators bring unique content in to SL! I can without any doubt say 99% of SL is user made! Creators must have better protection for their work and LL MUST provide it! If they dont SL will end up as copybot land! All creators will leave,shutdown their stores,tier for land wont be payed and in end SL will die off! Manny have already left becouse of lindens incompetence to protect what makes SL SL!!!! You know that with todays mesh copybots creators can expect that their unique creations will end up on turbosquid or any other 3d market,and they wont get a dime out of it! SL is first line of defense! LL Must give us better weapons to fight theifs and stop them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: LL could do same! SL is online service,on internet you can track anything,nothing can be raly hidden! If LL cant or doesnt know how to track down copybotters or ilegal viewers hire someone who knows how,hire a hacker for pete sakes! Haha, yeah. Good luck with all of that. Min Barzane wrote: Someone with long lasting reputation as creator and who knows how much money spent on uploads,buisness with good standing reputation should have some advantiges over every day SL user! Creators bring unique content in to SL! I can without any doubt say 99% of SL is user made! Creators must have better protection for their work and LL MUST provide it! Won't happen, never should. All Second Life users have equal capabilities, that's how it has always been. So speaketh the Tao of Linden. Min Barzane wrote: Well Amethyst LL does have RL info thru payment info required for anyone who uploads mesh and thats what todays copyboters do! If they dont SL will end up as copybot land! All creators will leave,shutdown their stores,tier for land wont be payed and in end SL will die off! Manny have already left becouse of lindens incompetence to protect what makes SL SL!!!! You know that with todays mesh copybots creators can expect that their unique creations will end up on turbosquid or any other 3d market,and they wont get a dime out of it! SL is first line of defense! LL Must give us better weapons to fight theifs and stop them! Mesh ripping is not the same as Copybotting. You do not need Payment Info on File to Copybot (that's the point). Everything else above is hyperbole or fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Barzane Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 Freya i dont know how interent functions per se but i know noting can realy be hiddein online,not from ppl who know how to get to it! "All Second Life users have equal capabilities" Ummm nope,not even close! Some can make mesh,some can make textures,some can make animations,some script and some cant even wear a box on their head if life depended on it! So NO,all SL residents are NOT equaly capable! That's how its always been and will be! Who contribues more to SL? Me as creator or some noob freebie hunter? Who makes more income for LL? Mesh ripping IS same as copybotting,same tools used and same end result! Stolen work! Becouse now days copyboters dont rip sculpts and textures,sounds animations! They rip MESH! And to get mesh back in SL they NEED payment info on file! There is no other way to upload it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: Freya i dont know how interent functions per se but i know noting can realy be hiddein online,not from ppl who know how to get to it! I know quite a bit, and I apply this knowledge in telling you that you're mistaken. The art of hiding is considerably more advanced than the art of searching - numbers are key. Governments and politicians are significantly bigger and more common targets than unaffiliated, proxy-driven attacks from undeveloped/underdeveloped nations. Anyone who knows how to hide will evade detection without the direct and immediate help of First-World Government services (and most will evade even then - it's only the suckers who get caught). This government attention - at no point - trickles down and helps the Second Life content creator. Min Barzane wrote: "All Second Life users have equal capabilities" Ummm nope,not even close! Some can make mesh,some can make textures,some can make animations,some script and some cant even wear a box on their head if life depended on it! So NO,all SL residents are NOT equaly capable! That's how its always been and will be! You've misread. Equally capable is not the same as having equal capabilities. Any Second Life user can create mesh if they choose to - anyone can apply for (and pass) the Mesh Quiz. Min Barzane wrote: Mesh ripping IS same as copybotting,same tools used and same end result! Stolen work! Becouse now days copyboters dont rip sculpts and textures,sounds animations! They rip MESH! And to get mesh back in SL they NEED payment info on file! There is no other way to upload it! Fundamental misunderstanding. You don't know how this works, and clearly have no knowledge of the black market that encourages this. Without giving away technical information on how to rip and re-import, evading LL while scooping cash by cycling accounts, I'll just say this:- Leave this stuff to the professionals, stop imagining one-step solutions. Min Barzane wrote: Who contribues more to SL? Me as creator or some noob freebie hunter? Who makes more income for LL? This has no relevance. SL is not the capitalist paradise that you imagine, keep your market evaluations of human life and interaction to yourself. Disengaging. Enhance your understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Ending open source viewers is not acceptable because it would end TPV and more people use them than the official viewer. It would drive people out of SL that must use them because they can't afford to upgrade their computer so it can handle the official viewer. I disagree with that. It wouldn't matter how many users use TPVs, they can simply use the LL viewer. That's no big deal. I don't know for certain, of course, but I doubt that there's any relatively recent computer that can't run the LL viewer. But if a handful of people would have that problem, it's far better to lose a handful of people than creators continuing to lose what they do through stealing (copybotting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: "All Second Life users have equal capabilities" Ummm nope,not even close! Some can make mesh,some can make textures,some can make animations,some script and some cant even wear a box on their head if life depended on it! So NO,all SL residents are NOT equaly capable! That's how its always been and will be! Freya is correct. All SL users have equal capabilities; i.e. all users are able to do everything you mentioned if they had the skills, and all users can learn the skills and do them. They are open to all. What you suggested would be open to only a few privileged users. That doesn't seem right, somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Ending open source viewers is not acceptable because it would end TPV and more people use them than the official viewer. It would drive people out of SL that must use them because they can't afford to upgrade their computer so it can handle the official viewer. I disagree with that. It wouldn't matter how many users use TPVs, they can simply use the LL viewer. That's no big deal. I don't know for certain, of course, but I doubt that there's any relatively recent computer that can't run the LL viewer. But if a handful of people would have that problem, it's far better to lose a handful of people than creators continuing to lose what they do through stealing (copybotting). Couple of things here. Leaving aside the people who wont use the official viewer simply because they hate anything that is Linden Lab the two basic reasons why people use a TPV are either/and/or they prefer the GUI or Performance. Now how many people who actually get better performance from a TPV is an unknown. But I do know some people who run Singularity because for some inexplicable reason the Official View and/or Firestorm is crash city. I went through this myself. For reasons no one was able to decipher (I had JIRA's and a Linden worked on my problem) the origibal iterations of Viewer 3 brought my mid line computer to a crawl. I honestly don't know how long I could have endured five frames per second. But Firestorm was there and I could get twenty fps. And this went on for many months. So while we may be a minority who have had or currently have these troubles, you'd lose us. The second point I want to bring up is that CopyBot preceeded the Viewer going opensource. Copybot happenned 2006, open source 2007. So having only an Official Viewer is not really a solution. Open source may have made things easier for CopyBot but it was there beforehand. Having only an Official Viewer would make things harder for CopyBot but it would not stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Min Barzane wrote: "All Second Life users have equal capabilities" Ummm nope,not even close! Some can make mesh,some can make textures,some can make animations,some script and some cant even wear a box on their head if life depended on it! So NO,all SL residents are NOT equaly capable! That's how its always been and will be! Freya is correct. All SL users have equal capabilities; i.e. all users are able to do everything you mentioned if they had the skills, and all users can learn the skills and do them. They are open to all. What you suggested would be open to only a few privileged users. That doesn't seem right, somehow. This goes back to the point I made earlier. Restrictions work against the whole concept of "Your World, Your Imagination." While it may be true that it is really a minority who ever actually creat content, it is still at the heart of what SL is. If you rip that heart out you might as well just go play some 2D shooter game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I don't have any views on your second point, so I'll leave it alone. On the first point, you have a point When the V3 came out, it was great. I praised it. Then LL did something so that I couldn't stay logged in even for a minute. I could log in, but I got logged out again very quickly. That problem wasn't exclusive to me. At the time, there were TPVs around and I was forced back to using one (I'd used one while the abominable V2 was current). So I do have a little experience of having to use a TPV. But look at it this way. Because TPVs were around, LL had no compelling need to fix that problem yesterday. They fixed it in the end but it took a while. But if the only useable viewer is the LL one, and such problems occur, they would really feel that they need to fix it in a hurry, and they would have done. So to your fps experience. Imo, if that were happening to people with the only useable viewer (LL's), then LL would feel a compelling reason to do something about it fast. We all managed just fine before the viewer code was released. I don't remember whether or not there were viewer updates that caused such problems but, if there were, they must have been dealt with pretty quick. The fact that TPVs exist is a blessing to LL because they don't need to get on top of the viewer problems so quickly, and they save on salaries because they don't need so many people on the viewer. TPVs are right up LL's street. I'd hate to have been forced to use the V2. That might well have curtailed my use of SL. And it may be that, because of the TPVs, LL eventually abandoned the V2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Barzane Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 Everyone on planet is capable to make a cake! Ill give 100 ppl all ingreedients,all stuff they need to make exactly same cake! How manny will actualy make it? Maybe 5! And thats with using writen recepie! Same is with mesh! Anyone can download program for creating it but how manny ppl will acualy have knowlige and talent to make it! From 100 ppl maybe 1! We all have 2 arms,2 legs,same body anatomy,we are capable of same motions but can we all do same things? NO! So no, not everyone in SL can make mesh even if they choose to! I can,can you? And yes i know how it works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: I don't have any views on your second point, so I'll leave it alone. On the first point, you have a point When the V3 came out, it was great. I praised it. Then LL did something so that I couldn't stay logged in even for a minute. I could log in, but I got logged out again very quickly. That problem wasn't exclusive to me. At the time, there were TPVs around and I was forced back to using one (I'd used one while the abominable V2 was current). So I do have a little experience of having to use a TPV. But look at it this way. Because TPVs were around, LL had no compelling need to fix that problem yesterday. They fixed it in the end but it took a while. But if the only useable viewer is the LL one, and such problems occur, they would really feel that they need to fix it in a hurry, and they would have done. So to your fps experience. Imo, if that were happening to people with the only useable viewer (LL's), then LL would feel a compelling reason to do something about it fast. We all managed just fine before the viewer code was released. I don't remember whether or not there were viewer updates that caused such problems but, if there were, they must have been dealt with pretty quick. The fact that TPVs exist is a blessing to LL because they don't need to get on top of the viewer problems so quickly, and they save on salaries because they don't need so many people on the viewer. TPVs are right up LL's street. I'd hate to have been forced to use the V2. That might well have curtailed my use of SL. And it may be that, because of the TPVs, LL eventually abandoned the V2. Your right, if only the Official Viewer was available the reasons to fix it would would be more compelling. But would it compell them? How bad would it need to get before it did? Some people would claim that LL's track record in this regard is pretty poor. Back when I had all my troubles I was ready to pack up my computer and send it to LL so the engineers there could disect it. They acknowledged that the problem was real, evidenced by many of us who had it, but they were unable to duplicate there. Maybe an interesting side note to this, back when I started SL my daughter tried it also. I had a piss poor desk top, 500mhz processor, 512mb ram with integrated graphics. She had a top of the line gaming computer. Viewer 1 crashed to desktop everytime she tried to run it so she never did get involved in SL because we were never able to solve it. How much this kind of thing affcets retention we don't know. LL does claim to survey people so they may have some idea. Whatver that number is it still does not seem to be compelling them. But really, I just don't know. And right now we are kind of hi-jacking this thread from it's topic so maybe time to move on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Min Barzane wrote: Everyone on planet is capable to make a cake! Ill give 100 ppl all ingreedients,all stuff they need to make exactly same cake! How manny will actualy make it? Maybe 5! And thats with using writen recepie! Same is with mesh! Anyone can download program for creating it but how manny ppl will acualy have knowlige and talent to make it! From 100 ppl maybe 1! We all have 2 arms,2 legs,same body anatomy,we are capable of same motions but can we all do same things? NO! So no, not everyone in SL can make mesh even if they choose to! I can,can you? And yes i know how it works! I have chosen not to learn how to make Mesh, but the potential exists for me. And that's the beauty of Second Life, the potentials. Your World, Your Imagination. I do support creator's rights, but it is "Your World, Your Imagination" that gives you a place to sell your content in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Hikacking the thread lol. When I got to your post I wondered what thead is about, so I scrolled to the top of the page but there's no indication in the posts on it. But yes, we're hijacking it, so I'll just say one thing. I'm not putting up an argument in favour of doing away with TPVs. I'm only saying that such a step would work ok (not against copybotting), albeit not necessarilty for absolutely everyone. I.e. SL would continue with only one viewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Hikacking the thread lol. When I got to your post I wondered what thead is about, so I scrolled to the top of the page but there's no indication in the posts on it. But yes, we're hijacking it, so I'll just say one thing. I'm not putting up an argument in favour of doing away with TPVs. I'm only saying that such a step would work ok (not against copybotting), albeit not necessarilty for absolutely everyone. I.e. SL would continue with only one viewer. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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