Your Store - Your Reputation

[Czari Zenovka]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Madeline Blackbart wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Gadget Portal wrote:

One even said that I was lying, because "if this stuff really was stolen, LL wouldn't let him sell it".

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Wasn't sure which emoticon was more appropriate, so used them both. 

Goes to the point that a good number of the SL customer base has no clue about all this.

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That and the customer base doesn't care to know either. Which just propagates the issue.

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Stores in world have become to hard to find, and when there is only one LL store, the Market Place, the customer has only two options;

1) buy from the MP with confidence.

2) don't buy from the Market Place, or any place, at all.

If there is a problem with stolen items being sold on the MP, the customer is the last place to put the blame, if even blaming them in the very smallest way, or at all.

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I didn't see anyone blaming the customer, in fact Tari specifically stated that while it was "Buyer Beware" (or words to that effect), that the onus for legitimate content rests squarely on the creator/merchant.

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The statement:

That and the customer base

doesn't care to know either.

Which just propagates the issue.

I could be reading it wrong, but its not that the customer doesn’t care, the customer has no way of knowing. So the customer is not propagating the issue, they have nothing to do with it. I am not going to investigate every little part of an item to see who made it.

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The statement you referenced was from Gadget.  Juuuusttt keeping who posted what straight.

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Since you want to keep it straight, let me help you out... it wasn't Gadget that made that statement, it was Madeline... just saying.  Anyway...

There will always be a portion of SL consumers that are clueless and always will be.  The same could be said for consumers in general... that's why there are laws in place to protect the innocent, ignorant masses from unscrupulous business practices.  While this will always be part of the problem, it in no way, puts any of the blame on those that don't know any better.  The key to minimizing the effect of this problem lies in education.

I was clueless to any of this, until I started reading threads such as this one in the forums, years ago.  I now consider myself one of those discerning SL customers of which you speak and still I have no real way of telling, without a doubt, whether or not a creator is using ripped mesh.  So you see, education can help make for better informed consumers, but it will never alleviate the problem all together.

The onus to police such matters lies with those who can actually do something about it... LL; legitimate content creators; the legal system and such, not some poor dolt that just wants to buy nice stuff and play with it.

...Dres

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I stand corrected on who made the statement to which you referred.

As for the rest of your post, I don't see that we have any disagreement.  I keep saying the onus is not on the customers.

[Rya Nitely]

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Tari Landar wrote:

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So, better than telling people avoid all mesh or all sculpt, or all merchants under X days old, or all merchants without an inworld store, or all merchants who pop up magically with the talents of a seasoned vet...you get my point....

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NO I don't get your point, because nobody ever said this.

And I don't understand why you're exaggerating what was said to make a point. Do I need to say again that these were meant as clues only. And they are very valid - if you did any research at all you would come to see just how valid they are. But as I keep saying they are clues and not proof - I don't know why it's so hard for people to see the difference. 

Another clue is that these stores usually have a collection of all types of items in very different creative styles - that is they don't look like they were made by the same person.

I'm sure there are other clues too.. But here I say again, they are clues only and not proof. If you bought from one of these stores without paying attention to these clues you'd be an idiot as it's so blatantly obvious.

But you can argue about it if you wish, You  would argue even if it stared you in the face.

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Tari Landar wrote:

Yes some people are more aware than others of ripped content and the places to look. Personally I think letting others know WHERE to look is a good stepping off point for us. 

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The problem I have with posting links to these sites is that it might be encouraging the very thing we're trying to fight. It's like advertising them.

 

 

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Tari Landar wrote:

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That should be the first step, imo, get the knowledge out there and into the hands of those who need it, and will likely use it. Posting just here on these forums, or on slu does most residents absolutely no good. The majority of residents don't read forums, and have no desire to do so. You have to take that knowledge inworld, where it might actually have more of an impact. Here, you're just preaching to the choir on most subjects and while we all love to learn and come into new knowledge, we're a very small water drop in the giant ocean of sl, very small. Some, if not many, of us do know what to look for, and how to look for it. We're not doing the rest of sl any favors by not telling them too.

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Getting the knowledge and warnings out there effectively can only be done by LL. The message could be put on the front log in page of every viewer. I don't see why third party viewers wouldn't comply. So there are things LL could do if they were that interested in the problem.

 

 

[Flea Yatsenko]

Another huge clue is that the quality of the advertisement images doesn't match the quality of the mesh product being sold. That's why I try and maintain a website for my goods that matches the style of my primary product images. It shows that I'm capable of building and I have control over what I'm doing. I'd encourage everyone else who is making original content to take steps outside of their actual products to assure customers that you'll stand by what you make and to give them confidence in you as a creator.

It seems a large number of the folks who rip content don't even have very good graphic design skills and they at best can throw text on an image, add some layer styles, and paste some other images they stole from some where else (and stealing images like that is just as bad as stealing mesh, someone worked hard to make those images and they didn't work hard for someone else to make money off of it). There are some people, no doubt, who are alright with photoshop who are selling stolen content but poor graphic design on advertisements coupled with very well done mesh is usually a clue.

A complex mesh item takes time to make. It also takes skill. No one in their right mind would spend 40+ hours on a piece of high quality mesh to sell it for 50 cents.

My concerns are that this stolen content losing value is going to drag a lot of actual content creators who make similar things down with it. I'm also concerned that eventually SL itself may be known as a place for content theives to go. Worst case scenario is that the stolen goods might become so well known that SL might just end up looking like some sort of cheap Gary's Mod knock-off where you're not limited to using Valve assets.

I wish I knew what LL was thinking. A part of me thinks they actually want this stolen content in here. I'm recalling some sort of post around here that was basically Humble telling all non-pro content creators "good-bye", but the part that worried me the most about his actual quote was that it (IIRC) was more to the effect of "we're releasing materials to get professional CONTENT in the game" and not creators.

Which to me kind of sounded much like they were hinting at they actually wanted to give people who steal content better tools to sell their stolen content as opposed to encouraging the types of mesh creators who bake their products because they know how to. Baking is a serious barrier to entry if you choose to do it, at the settings I use it still takes me a while, I have a 5ghz 8 core AMD CPU running a completely optimized version of Gentoo Linux with a completely optimized version of Blender and it will take several hours to bake something not overly large.

I just don't think it's very wise to be so lax about content theft, specially when the content is being stolen from an industry that does nothing but cries that piracy is killing their profits.

[Teagan Tobias]

I am assuming your a creator, to you its obvious. To your trained eye, its obvious. To you that can see what style things are created in, its obvious. But to me it does not matter how often you say, its just so obvious, well, no its not obvious. Many things you see I don't understand because I don't work with it like you do, and that is the case with a lot of customers. Your living in your own little world now as a creator, I am not part of it no matter how many times you tell me, oh its so obvious. How many time do you need to be told, no its not. A lot of people just do not have the ability or talent that you have, maybe this post is just your way of rubbing it in, most likely not but its starting to sound like that.

[Teagan Tobias]

Flea wrote:

Another huge clue is that the quality of the advertisement images doesn't match the quality of the mesh product being sold.

 

Great, now I need to be an art critic too. It not going to happen.

[Tari Landar]

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You seem extremely defensive and there's no reason to be.  The post of mine you quoted, wasn't even in reply to you, but to someone who said all people know when something is stolen. Some people HAVE said those very things, as advice to others curious about how to avoid buying copybotted materials. This is not the first thread on the subject and it most certainly won't be the last. I haven't exaggerated anything. But you are coming across mighty defensive, despite the fact that the majority of us do now exactly where you're coming from, and do agree as well.

We know LL isn't going to do anything, we wish they would. Put wishes fulfilled by LL in one hand and crap in another, and see which one fills first. Hence, why creators, and customers alike, have to help one another. If LL won't get the info out, and it's pretty clear they have no intention of doing that anytime soon(since botted materials is not a new problem, by any stretch) we have to do that. I don't quite understand why you believe sharing the links to the original products would be promoting people stealing. I'm going to have to ask you to please explain that one. I'm not being sarcastic, I am honestly asking why you believe this.

If you want customers to take note, and to be able to, as clearly as possible, define what's ripped and what's not, you're going to have to help. If you don't, you're merely another part of the problem, aren't you? I mean if you have the knowledge and don't share, what good does it do anyone? That's a general you, not you specifically Rya.  We all agree it's a problem, and we all, seem to, agree that LL isn't doing enough, if anything. So, what then? You started this thread to better help, didn't you? Or at least to discuss the problem? I find it odd that when people offer suggestions or even their opinions on the matter, others get defensive. We're all kind of in the same boat here, when it comes to content creation. We've all got a horse in the race when it comes to stolen content. Some of us have no horse in the mesh stolen content race(like me), but, we've all got a place in the overall one, really.

Perhaps I'm simply misreading what you've said. And perhaps I should keep my trap shut when these topics come up. I just don't see much use in sitting on your hands when you have knowledge to offer that would benefit both creators and customers alike. If I had proof positive of a product(or worse a bunch of them) that was botted/stolen and could provide the link to the original(or even links to sites where one could take a look when they're feeling not quite sure on something) I would surely share them. Even if it wasn't on ll owned property, I would share. I don't see anything wrong with that. Telling people they're all buying stolen content and they don't care doesn't seem very effective, as it's been the way for quite some time now.

I also didn't say any of your clues were proof, that was someone else back further in the thread. I know they're not proof. Even combined together all of them aren't proof, but they are a good jumping off point and I never said they weren't. Some other merchants however, have told people to avoid all those things I listed, because they're inherently bad. I don't agree with those merchants. I never said you were one of them.

[Rya Nitely]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

I am assuming your a creator, to you its obvious. To your trained eye, its obvious. To you that can see what style things are created in, its obvious. But to me it does not matter how often you say, its just so obvious, well, no its not obvious. Many things you see I don't understand because I don't work with it like you do, and that is the case with a lot of customers. Your living in your own little world now as a creator, I am not part of it no matter how many times you tell me, oh its so obvious. How many time do you need to be told, no its not. A lot of people just do not have the ability or talent that you have, maybe this post is just your way of rubbing it in, most likely not but its starting to sound like that.

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but I was talking to creators - read the title of the thread

[Rya Nitely]

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Tari Landar wrote:

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You seem extremely defensive and there's no reason to be.  

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Really? I thought you were sounding extremely defensive.

[Tari Landar]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

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You seem extremely defensive and there's no reason to be.  

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Really? I thought you were sounding extremely defensive.

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Nope, I'm not, sorry if it sounded that way. I can see this particular problem (stolen content) from a couple of vantage points as a creator and consumer. Just not that of the thief, but I'd rather not get in their heads anyway. I don't think I expressed that very well in my initial post though, or any of them for that matter. That's what happens when you(I) talk too much.

I do, however, think it's better to be proactive and not only reactive, which is primarily what we've been since it first reared its ugly head. Being proactive means we have to share the knowledge with the masses, including non-creators. In fact in some ways I find it even more important to share with non-creators because they also have a lot to lose(removed content, branded a thief by association, etc..) but they don't have the, I'll use the word community here, that creators have. Maybe network is a better word, I'm not sure. In either case, creators talk mostly amongst themselves about this problem, and we can't do nearly as much good doing that, I don't believe.

I could be entirely wrong, it just hasn't seemed all that effective up until this point. We're no closer to solving the problem.

[Pamela Galli]

Tari, if you post links to the sites full of ripped content -- the source of the content filling up SL -- that just is an advertisement for them. It is quite a dilemma. 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

I am assuming your a creator, to you its obvious. To your trained eye, its obvious. To you that can see what style things are created in, its obvious. But to me it does not matter how often you say, its just so obvious, well, no its not obvious. Many things you see I don't understand because I don't work with it like you do, and that is the case with a lot of customers. Your living in your own little world now as a creator, I am not part of it no matter how many times you tell me, oh its so obvious. How many time do you need to be told, no its not. A lot of people just do not have the ability or talent that you have, maybe this post is just your way of rubbing it in, most likely not but its starting to sound like that.

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Not only is it not obvious to someone that doesn't know any better, but the thought of it being an issue wouldn't even cross the mind of someone that doesn't know any better.

Statements such as this...

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Rya Nitely wrote:

If you bought from one of these stores without paying attention to these clues you'd be an idiot as it's so blatantly obvious.

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...do noone any good and, in fact, serve to turn people away from the issue all together.  No one should be called an idiot for simply being ignorant of a situation of which they've never had reason to become knowledgeable.

Merchants should be more knowledgeable about this and I believe this was Rya's reason for posting this thread in the first place... this is a good thing.  Trying to make the point by calling people names is rather counterproductive.

...Dres

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Flea wrote:

Another huge clue is that the quality of the advertisement images doesn't match the quality of the mesh product being sold.

 

Great, now I need to be an art critic too. It not going to happen.

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Actually, I think this is one of the best clues that's been given so far.  You don't have to be a art critic to see when a picture's quality is crappy.  If a person has the knowledge and equipment to create high quality mesh, you'd think they'd have the knowledge and equipment to take a high quality picture.

Not only that, but as a discerning shopper, I'd never by anything from anyone that couldn't make the effort to take a decent picture of their own product... even if they were a hundred percent legit.

...Dres

[Rya Nitely]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

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...do noone any good and, in fact, serve to turn people away from the issue all together.  No one should be called an idiot for simply being ignorant of a situation of which they've never had reason to become knowledgeable.

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...Dres

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You're right about the word idiot, and I'm sorry

I'd like to put my thought process behind the clues I listed in my first post. But firstly, the reason I listed a few clues is because I didn't want to post about a problem without giving some suggestion on how to avoid it. Secondly, these clues were meant for merchants, not customers. It was meant as something to simply raise your level of caution when buying a full perm item that you intend to add to your creation and sell. Here goes -

 

• Sold by more than one merchant - this tells you the seller may not be the creator. Full perm items are usually sold by the creator

• Very high quality mesh sold full perm and/or at very low prices - I didn't word this properly and meant to say high quality, full perm and at low prices. It would send up a red flag. I'd be wondering why such high quality was being sold so cheap.

• Merchant sells only high quality mesh and no sculpted or standard prim items - long term and established merchants would have older (pre-mesh) items in their stores too, and past experience tells us that new merchants usually start out with more basic items. Again, this is only a clue as there are legitimate stores that only sell high quality mesh.

• Merchant usually has no inworld store and has a relatively new account - If I was buying full perm items to add to my creations, in this environment I would want to see an inworld store, especially if the seller has a relatively new account.  An inworld store is a sign of some stability and accountability. And new accounts don't have a reputation to protect or as much to lose if they get caught.

 

• Read the SLUniverse thread on ripped content - I've read this and some of my thoughts came from this thread.

 

In my opinion, a customer doesn't have the same responsibility as a merchant does. I think its worse to sell stolen goods and profit from it, especially if your customers don't know. And I don't think it's a customer's responsibility to find out if an item is stolen. A customer is only at fault if they knowingly buy stolen items.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Since when is someone disagreeing with another person tearing the other person down?  I didn't call you names like 'idiot' or intimate anything about you personally. 

The ONLY thing I disagreed with was your list of 'clues' and I gave my reasons why.  Even if all those 'clues' were present, that would not prove ripped content, which wasn't made clear in your OP, IMO.   However posting 'clues' like that can damage legitimate content creators reputation.  That was the point of my disagreement.  I wanted to present counterpoints to what you said so that someone with no knowledge wouldn't see them as proof and consider your 'clues' from all angles before making a call. You yourself revisited you clues and added more information, said that they were not worded properly or qualified the statement.

Finally, while I never attacked you personally, you did attack me with your statement

"I note you use the words 'they complain...'.

Saying 'they and not 'we' indicates how you see the situation. I think it's more likely that you don't care and you're looking to find fault with those who do."

You were angry I disagreed with you and wanted to nit pic my use of the word "they" instead of "we".  I didn't include myself because I don't complain.  It does no good. Instead I act when I suspect stolen content by reporting my suspicions to the original creator and let them complain where it will do some good.  I have always done this anytime I see ripped content of any kind, not just mesh, and have done so for more than six years. I also started out my post saying I did not condone it and I ended it by encouraging people to report ripped mesh to the original creator.  Where in my post did I say anything that would lead anyone to believe I did not care? If you had read any of my prior posts concerning IP rights it would show you that I do care quite a bit.

So to be clear and summarize, I agree with most everything you say except your 'clues' which to me are not sufficient to accuse someone of ripping content because as you youself said, they are not proof.  I believe in somone being innocent until it is proven they are guilty.  If you as a merchant suspect ripped content using any criteria you care to but also by examining all sides of that criteria, the only legitimate response is not to buy it and report it to the original creator who can then choose what actions to take.

If you feel attacked by someone offering legitimate disagreement and explaining why, you should not be posting on a forum. 

[Tari Landar]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Tari, if you post links to the sites full of ripped content -- the source of the content filling up SL -- that just is an advertisement for them. It is quite a dilemma. 

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I understand but if you don't tell people where they can look to see if something they are interested in purchasing was taken from somewhere, how are people to know?

I'm not saying we should advertise those who ripped the content. Maybe an example might help. Let's say I'm interested in a couch. I want to be sure it wasn't ripped from a 3d site. I search, and because I don't know enough about ripped content, I'm not even certain where to look. How do I go about finding that out? I'd have to ask someone who does have more experience than I do. This is really important for customers, which includes merchants that use full perm things made by others. We no more want to buy ripped content than most (I am of the camp that blieves the majority wouldn't buy ripped content, if they knew it was). But if we don't even know where to really begin on our search, we're kind of damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we buy ripped content, unknowingly, we'll get painted as badly as those who ripped it. If we're overly cautious about everything, people who make full perm products, are out of business. It is a catch 22, really.

I do believe this can affect merchants even more than non-merchant customers because the merchant is the one who will get branded the thief. Non-merchant customers also stand to lose in that kind of scenario, but they don't lose a reputation.

Having dealt with being branded a thief(with absolutely no truthful basis, in either scenario I mentioned), it's not pleasant. Sure, you can, and should, come out of it in the end squeaky clean. But if you believe there aren't some lasting effects, you're sorely mistaken. I could only assume someone who thinks this way, has never had to actually deal personally with the issue. That doesn't mean they can't, or shouldn't, have an opinion on the matter. They can, and they should.

That's why I said information for the masses is important. Information for merchants is important too, but it's just as important for non-merchant customers. You just never know who will decide to become a creator one day. Since most of us started out in non-merchant status.

I do believe clues are important, but they're only one portion of a possible solution. Which really, none of us seem to have. I certainly don't know of a solution. No one here yet has come up with a probable solution. Outside of trusting ll to take the reigns, which we know is not going to happen, it hasn't yet. If you're armed with knowledge and information, holding onto it really isn't doing anyone but you, any amount of good.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Syle Devin wrote:

What would be really cool is if LL could get large companies into SL to allow for their content to be made and sold. For example imagine a large company such as disney in here allowing for their items to be sold on a percentage basis. But I'm not sure LL is headed in that direction.

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Bringing in large content creators into SL would be its death as we know it.  Merchants and creators would be unable to compete with them or be at a severe disadvantage.  They complain now about cometition from ripped content, if large companies came to SL the merchants and creators haven't seen anything yet. SL would become just another crass over commercialized place.

 

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I call BS! Why can't we compete? Many of us do this for a living. Many of us could work at game companies and have. Many of us know more than those hacks at game companies. How many people in the game industry could even create a successful business in SL? Not many! Mesh has been out for a long time now. Do you know any merchants that came in specifically for mesh? Oh, there are many, but you don't know them because they make things just like every1 else. They don't use magic pixie dust to make meshes. They make them just like the rest of us. To me, it's laughable that some game company could walk in and displace us all. Sure, maybe a game company could come in and create a game that people like, but as for individual content, they would not be able to compete with a seasoned SL merchant. IMHO.

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To clarify I have no doubt someone like you, as well as other very talented professional creators in SL, could compete.  I was referring mainly to the thousands and thousands of "little' guys, some more talented than others, that create a few hours a month as a hobby because they enjoy the creation process, and sell a few things on MP or in a small shop in world to subsidize or finance their tiers and other in world expenses.

I have known a lot of people in SL over the years and most of them dabbled to one extent or another in creation this way.  The large majority of the creation community is made up of people like that and they in turn make up a lot of the population of SL.  Having big companies in SL providing content would be the equivalent of Walmart moving into a small town and driving the corner market out.  Sure the area may survive, even a few of the well established larger merchants, but the 'downtowns' and smaller malls don't don't survive, leaving the community much poorer as a result.

While sex and socializing are a big part of SL and there would be people that would stay for that, the ability of the 'average' person to create something and make a few bucks on it once in a while is the heart and soul of what makes SL attractive to so many.  It would discourage most and make a lot of them leave, and the rest would have less to spend.  The ones here only for sex and social grow bored and leave, but those people that create things stay longer and make SL what it is.  SL IMO would never be the same again.

[Rya Nitely]

I've said all that I want to and need to in this thread. I'm not going to engage in petty arguments. The subject is too important to reduce it to that.

[Teagan Tobias]

Oh my, I picked a random person from this thread and looked on the MP. In my opinion, the photos of the items for sale, trying to be polite, stink. (RL hobby is photography)  My first conclusion is that you have content thefts here looking out for what you may be attempting to do to stop them. But my second conclusion is that, some of the things to look out for are relative and subjective. And I may not be a creator but to leave out any part of the problem is not coming up with a solution. And that is what you should be discussing, a solution, what are you going to do. The people in these forums are a very Very small drop in the bucket of the people on SL and putting something here is not an answer. I am sure you have a group, or you better have, that all creators can let each other know what they see as ripped so the appropriate creator can take action and the rest of you can AR the culprit. I like SL and it is in my best interest to have a solution to this, because some of you create some very outstanding things, a bit pricey IMO but still very nice.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I don't know about you, but after about the 20th DMCA, my legal thoughts would be that this DMCA thing is starting to look pretty useless in the face of the company that's complicit in letting it happen so easily in the first place.

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And how do you propose that they stop it?

And mind you, your proposal needs to be DCMA compliant and not interfere with "My World, My Imagination."

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In a post in this thread I listed some ways that other affiliate sales sites handle things without having too much of a theft problem. Like I said, any reputable affiliate is a good point of reference.

Someone else mentioned in this thread, Tari I believe that it's not likely that LL is going to do anything any time soon. You don't need to look any further than LL's farce of a "test" that they use for people to be able to upload mesh. In their mind the DMCA and a disclaimer is all they need to be absolved of the liability. In reality it doesn't and they don't see enough court cases to test it.

Also, the DMCA isn't the only legal means to pursue someone for theft ... problem is that LL has fictionalized the other elements that allow people to make use of the law.

Some partial thoughts on what we can do without LL:

When you see ripped content from a reputable site, also contact the site maintainers and explain to them how this item is ripped from one of their own merchants. It may eventually result in some legal action by the site and those artists as a class action.

Pose the problems to discussion forums where the highest level professionals hang out on. The forums on CG Society are a good place to start. Many of the people there are top artists in film and games and may offer some ideas or help. Let them know that this threatens the entire industry of professionals and their income. http://www.cgsociety.org

Perhaps a discussion over there on the possibility of putting a non profit organization together for professional 3D artists, with enough donations and traction you can hire your own lawyers to initiate legal action against companies allowing theft.

Basically branch beyond SL. Also offer your mesh on some other reputable sites. Then you're part of the communities that people are doing the ripping from, this may help develop more contacts and resources and ideas.

 

[Gavin Hird]

First of all, let me say that ripping of mesh did not start with the ability to upload mesh in SecondLife. It started with availability of applications that with relative ease made it possible to convert existing (free...) mesh items into sculpts.

If you look at some of the large selections of commodity sculpts that just popped up overnight, you can't help wonder where they originated. Leading to one of your clues.

I personally found the process of creating and texturing sculpts convoluted. I even went to the lengths of purchasing Zbrush and Hexagon (DAZ) because of their ability to create sculpted items. However, I found the process unrewarding at all levels so I never created any scultps that made it to a commercial product. – So I never sold sculpts or prims.

When the announcement of creating mesh was made by LL I started shifting my attention to learning how to create meshes, but any mesh creation process that applications are designed for, and that you learn in training classes will produce medium to high poly meshes, which are virtually useless in SecondLife both for technical and commercial reasons, unless it is a wearable where the LI does not matter so much (at least nobody asks when they buy it.) – Which may be another reason my people don't have in-world stores; high poly wearables takes quite a bit of land if you are going to display them in-world. The same goes for large size meshes (such as trees) even if they are low poly. 

Back to the above – even if learning how to make mesh, I had to relearn how to make mesh for use in SecondLife. This took a lot of time in experimenting both in SecondLife and also on a standalone opensim, where I still do almost all development and testing, Then comes the process of mastering UV mapping which still is convoluted and hard for anything but the simplest meshes. 

Perhaps this is where the biggest clue if a mesh i ripped or not comes from; how is it UV mapped? If a complex item is mapped for one very highly optimized texture, chances are it has been ripped from somewhere else. Why? – Because this process requires very high skills particularly when the UV map is applied to a low poly item (8-20k polys for a gaming character for instance - much less for other items.)

Those who master them can most likely reap substantially higher rewards both in terms of  $ and recognition elsewhere. 

Just my L$ 0.02

[Rya Nitely]

Hi Gavin, I agree with you about UV mapping - it's one of the hardest parts of it all. In some ways I found getting a texture to neatly wrap around a sculpt was easier, but trying to blend and align textures when you're working with multiple faces can be hard and very time consuming. A sculpt was one texture spread over one face - less complex.

When you buy a ripped mesh, not only do you get a  perfect diffuse map but the normal and specular maps as well - and I think this is a clue.

My clues were only meant as a rough guide  - even all the clues together are not proof. But people need to have some signals to alert them, and these were the best I could come up with, taken from my own observations. Unfortunately, when people are being cautious some legitimate store may be avoided - not sure this can be helped really. It would happen in RL as well.

Take Ebay, for example. People use the sellers' reputation as a guide. They will often buy from a seller with a strong reputation and may avoid new sellers. In doing so they may be discriminating against very honest and reliable sellers.

[Teagan Tobias]

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

[Paul Hexem]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

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There's not a single resident I'd trust to be impartial enough to be in charge of that. And we know LL wouldn't do it.

[Teagan Tobias]

How about someone in charge with an oversight team that changes that has full view of all reports and fillings.

[HisaDrug]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

Just a question, what would it take to create a Second Life Better Business Bureau. Someplace where you can look up a seller or store and see if someone has reported them? And could that even be done? Helps for finding problem businesses in RL, why not SL.

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(Sorry for responding before Rya) 

I think that is a very good suggestion, but only in customer's favour. As much as there are polite n sincere customers, also vindictive n mean customers out there who falsely accuse honest merchants for their own frustration n technical mishaps. Reviews are constantly harrassed by angry customers (except for cases where the products actually suck). For knowing LL is nonchalant about abuse reports, report history of a merchant would create quite an issue n somewhat could be used for vengeful sources for angry customers. 

If it was actual ebay or online auction sites where real money was the only option, the report history would work fine cos you could take it to court when someone harassed you for nothing. LL business has very little protections for merchants n also customers so such a tangible list of report might add extra burden on LL as well. 

As a merchant, I have to deal with occasional ridiculous complaints by customers, such as a female customer would purchase a mens product n compain she looked manly with it. She'd demand her money back n leave a false review for her frustration. If LL provided us such options (report history), it'd suck so bad on my part because it's just ridiculous as hell. But I agree with you that LL has to do something about ripped off meshes on MP. I see them everyday n it upsets me as a merchant.