Your Store - Your Reputation

[Teagan Tobias]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Madeline Blackbart wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Gadget Portal wrote:

One even said that I was lying, because "if this stuff really was stolen, LL wouldn't let him sell it".

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Wasn't sure which emoticon was more appropriate, so used them both. 

Goes to the point that a good number of the SL customer base has no clue about all this.

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That and the customer base doesn't care to know either. Which just propagates the issue.

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Stores in world have become to hard to find, and when there is only one LL store, the Market Place, the customer has only two options;

1) buy from the MP with confidence.

2) don't buy from the Market Place, or any place, at all.

If there is a problem with stolen items being sold on the MP, the customer is the last place to put the blame, if even blaming them in the very smallest way, or at all.

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I didn't see anyone blaming the customer, in fact Tari specifically stated that while it was "Buyer Beware" (or words to that effect), that the onus for legitimate content rests squarely on the creator/merchant.

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The statement:

That and the customer base doesn't care to know either. Which just propagates the issue.

I could be reading it wrong, but its not that the customer doesn’t care, the customer has no way of knowing. So the customer is not propagating the issue, they have nothing to do with it. I am not going to investigate every little part of an item to see who made it.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Medhue is right. Said companies make entire games. Individual employees or small departments make the content.

 

Just look at mods for games like Skyrim. A lot of those modders make content, mesh and textures and animations, to use in the game that the original developer never dreamed of.

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When I used to MOD Far Cry, and play multiplayer on servers, you had to have the MODs to even play on most servers. Most, if not all, the servers hosting multiplayer used Levels in MODs created by independent creators. This was because those Levels were vastly superior and more fun than the Levels created for the game. By Levels, I mean the enviroments. See, game companies have people in suits that make the final decisions, which are always on the safe side.

[Arken Soothsayer]

One thing the thieves usually use is really bad marketplace pictures. Just a plain low-res screenshot, on no background, or a really poor one. Kinda gives it away. You could make and texture this awesome mesh, but you're unable to make a nice pic for it?

 

Most of the rips I see are from very popular games. Any gamer knows, this stuff is ripped, rigged, and thats it. The problem is more the people buying it, than the should-be-hanged people stealing and selling.

[Rya Nitely]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

Good you started a discussion on this Rya, and posted the woman and ivy rip.

 

I had no idea the woman and ivy statue I used in one of my water creations was ripped - I just removed it from the MP and will delete it in my store when I can get in-world.

 

Maybe as we see ripped items in SL we can increase awareness by posting the link to the ripped source, without naming any store here of course.

However, the MP doesn't get a lot of views, so best to do it @ SLUniverse too.

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hugs

[Teagan Tobias]

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Arken Soothsayer wrote:

One thing the thieves usually use is really bad marketplace pictures. Just a plain low-res screenshot, on no background, or a really poor one. Kinda gives it away. You could make and texture this awesome mesh, but you're unable to make a nice pic for it?

 

Most of the rips I see are from very popular games. Any gamer knows, this stuff is ripped, rigged, and thats it.

The problem is more the people buying it, than the should-be-hanged people stealing and selling.

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Bolding I did.   Now that is the most sensible thing I have seen on here yet, stealing is OK, but buying something that you don't know is stolen, from a reputable dealer [LL], now that is a crime that needs serious punishment! (you most likely don't recognize sarcasm, but this is what it looks like)

[Arken Soothsayer]

I didn't say stealing was ok. And I don't believe there are many people who don't know that they're buying ripped content.

[Teagan Tobias]

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Arken Soothsayer wrote:

I didn't say stealing was ok. And I don't believe there are many people who don't know that they're buying ripped content.

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I don't think the people buying are a problem at all, not even kinda. I can't even tell the permissions on a lot of items, I had problems just finding the price of some things today, and I've been here for almost six years. So spell it out for me, how do I KNOW something is stolen, tell me exactly how to tell, and none of the maybe this or could be that stuff, tell me exactly how to tell that something is stolen.

[Arken Soothsayer]

Are you kidding? Search market for "Witcher", there's an easy one.

[Teagan Tobias]

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Arken Soothsayer wrote:

Are you kidding? Search market for "Witcher", there's an easy one.

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Kidding? No, not at all, and what is a “Witcher” and why would I want one? And how would I know its stolen? I looked and see nothing that says, I'm stolen.

[Teagan Tobias]

I think the bottom line here is that not you, or anybody else, can tell me, or anyone, how to KNOW if something is stolen. If I don't have “cretin knowledge” that you have about something, then what you see as stolen, I have no clue about, its just another product for sale to me. And because I don't create anything, then your going to know things that I will never know. And it looks like one of those things is if something is stolen or not. But that is not my problem as a customer, its not something I should be asked to deal with. Oh by the way before you purchase this item please spend the next three hours Googling it so you know its not stolen... NOT!

[Rya Nitely]

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Arken Soothsayer wrote:

One thing the thieves usually use is really bad marketplace pictures. Just a plain low-res screenshot, on no background, or a really poor one. Kinda gives it away. You could make and texture this awesome mesh, but you're unable to make a nice pic for it?

 

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This is true, and even on that free3D model site, the pictures of the stolen items are nowhere near as good as the actual items. These are high quality items that most amateurs, like myself, would spend days if not weeks creating and then not get it as good. I'm prepared to say I don't have the skills to make mesh like that. Maybe there are people, like Medhue, who have these skills, but i would guess that most creators in SL don't, and are like me - still learning as I go.

So no, I can't compete with mesh that was made by professionals for games. The only advantage I do have is that I have good scripts to make a boat sail, and I can add animations. I don't know where that gets me :smileyfrustrated:

[PaperB]

This is not the first time i read here about this subject. Last time it wasnt exaclty this, had more to do about beeing carefull of buying expensive mesh from new creators, now its about stolen mesh,.somehow for me the two subjects are conected, here is were: the post talks about clues on how to recognize merchants that arent to be trusted.

One was on new accounts, i have been in sl for over 6 years now and this avatar has less than a year, so im not too new and probably most of the new merchants account arent new to sl either,.and even if thy were, mesh is not exclusive to sl, maybe they worked with it in other places. High quality items from rather unknown merchants; whats unknown? Hat merchant could be working custom and be super profesional on it, and have small store at marketplace or maybe none, or that merchant can be selling his/her mesh elsewere and bring some here too. The selling price isnt for me a sign either, in fact ive seen ripped mesh at really high price from really known merchants. Inword store, again maybe they dont want to spend in keeping a inworld store, in my experience, i had a few of them, thy dont sell as much as mp.

Ripped mesh is more than easy to see without these so call clues. In fact there are two or three sites like grapixshare, renderocity, or just google 3d model free lol, there you will see them and most probably recognize quite a few of them. To me at this point is the only way to avoid purchasing these kind of products, but discriminating merchants is not. If we want to move foward in continue to create our world with our imagination, we need to flow and stop saying things like: if they only sell mesh they are to be distrust.

[Rya Nitely]

No PaperB, that is not what I said. A clue does not mean guilt. But if you are suspicious of a store (and many of these stores do fit a certain pattern) then you investigate further. But nobody should just blindly buy on trust and then add it to their creations and then sell it. The onus is on the merchant to make some effort to ensure they do not sell stolen items if they want to protect their reputation. You need to have some awareness, and I meant only for my clues to be a starting point - not proof at all of guilt. From this starting point you investigate further by checking 3D sites like you mentioned in your post - you don't just assume guilt and turn away. That would be wrong.

 

Edit to add this: It's as bad saying that if a store does not show one of these clues then they must be innocent. That assumption would be wrong too. A store can show none of these clues and be guilty or a store can show all of them and be innocent. It's just a guide or starting point, that is all.

[Erik Verity]

As long as sellers keep ignoring the legal process, stay ignorant of it altogether, and/or continue to blame everyone but themselves for failure to act, not very much will change. It really is not the responsibility of a buyer at all, other than what they can actually know beyond a doubt; sometimes it takes experts examining a creator's source files to make a determination so it's hardly possible to really know at all. I am not a gamer, never was before coming to SL, wouldn't have recognized a single thing from another game, and I don't think I am in a small minority. If I had had to deal with this when I was new, the extra learning process alone would have kept the thrill of playing (and paying) from ever being known. I signed up originally to just have fun, to escape the seriousness of the real world.

I had my first lesson about IP infringement when some parts of outfits I had purchased at a large, inworld store suddenly failed to rez. I couldn't figure it out myself, so I went back to the store I bought them from and asked one of theirt rep's, who referred me to someone who was handling the problem. I was told that some of the texture packs they had purchased from a supplier were the subject of a DMCA claim and LL had taken them off world. They apologized, and in no time at all, they sent me replacements for everything affected. I can't see a buyer having any more repercussions than that - risk losing what you paid for even though you may have had no clue.

Even if it were possible for LL to police everything sold on MP, (get real - you're talking about millions of items that they still couldn't make an accurate judgement on themselves anyway), it would be illegal. The guidelines they follow are the law - if you don't believe it, stay ignorant and suffer. It isn't that hard to find out for yourself. The only one who can file a DMCA is a creator or someone legally acting on their behalf. If LL acted on anyone else's claim or suspicion, again, they would be breaking the law. The reason they don't allow making accusations inworld or this forum, is because of defamatory injuries. Even in SLU, which isn't bound by LL TOS, the wrong accusations have happened more than once, followed by 'oops' and aplogies (only for those that really were believed to be false - still, how are they supposed to know for sure?)

The harm is real world damages, and is dealt with by real world (U.S.) law. LL has to accept the claims and counter-claims if they are filed, and react the way they are required to, and they are forbidden from making their own rules on how to settle it. If you don't look around for theft of your products yourself, there is no way to stop it from happening. If you don't file a DMCA take-down notice when you should, nothing gets started. If you don't follow it up with a real world court action, the offender is free to do it again with nothing on their record, even if they don't contest that one claim. From what I've read, it really is a crime that is taken seriously if you persue it, which can also lead to jail time. People convicted of crimes on the internet, especially repeating them, can be barred from even connecting to the internet or using a computer.

Everything mesh or texture related that I made can be proven by the sources on my computer which will be multiple files starting from their simplest beginnings. Nobody else has them and nobody else can do anything but guess whether or not they exist. I really wish that creators would complain more about having lost some money from paying a court filing cost once in a while instead of what they lost in potential income because everyone with no legal ground to stand on is doing anything about it.

 

First let me say this: LL is not forbidden to take down anything it wants to take down. Read the TOS. It is their choice to do the bare minimum required by law; they are not required to do the bare minimum.

 

The rewards of IP theft are now just too great -- and not just monetary. The store that got outed for stealing every single thing in their store from different 3D artists?  Even before they opened their doors, they were blogged and celebrated as brilliant designers, over and over and over (I had never heard of them because I don't read blogs but after the Pinterest page appeared I did a search). It never seemed the least bit odd or unlikely to their fawning volunteer publicists that these two "creators" could go from building nothing* to developing professional level mesh skills in a very short time. Apparently other SL mesh creators are just dunces. Certainly it can make one feel a bit dim spending large amounts of time making mesh when one can get a lot more attention and money by just taking credit for other people's work.

Last I heard, this store is still flourishing, still being promoted. Certainly no one has come forward to print anything like a retraction of their endorsements -- after convincing their readers that these frauds are legitimate they do nothing to enlighten them. Not their job I guess.

They are not the only ones, of course. They just were not smart enough to cover their tracks very well. 

*One of them had done sim design, using other people's content, the other was a sim owner who hired her to design his sim. Then overnight everything on their sims showed them as creators, and next thing you know, they were mesh store owners! 

[Erik Verity]

I never said they are not allowed to take down anythoing they wish - but if they decide to take down anything at all from a rightful creator while enabling someone who is infringing the creator's IP rights to distribute it, they are both subject to lawsuit AND VIOLATING THE LAW. They can remove anything temporary when an initial claim is filed, and still have to backtrack if a counter claim follows. It is then up to the courts, IF it is followed up on by those filing the claims.

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SecretsOfSL wrote:

 It is their choice to do the bare minimum required by law; they are not required to do the bare minimum.

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I'm going to guess you meant to say "they are not required to do ONLY the bare minimum? No, they can stop everyone from distributing it through their network or they can follow the gudelines of the law. They absolutely cannot attempt to make any judgements on their own and punish who they see fit. That WILL put them in violation of the law. They abslutely are not allowed to act in any way shape or form as if they can decide who is legally right or wrong in these cases. They ARE allowed to ban any account with repeated or multiple accusations of theft - that's still not the same thing as deciding any specific legal or civil action in place of a court of law.

I have no idea of what case you are talking about - seriously, it's nothing but a rumor from an anonymous forum poster so far, and has nothing to do with who has a legal right or responsibility to do anything about IP rights infringement. I've never sold anything I made yet - never even tried to sell anything, but as soon as I understood what I was doing, it made no sense to stay on that route instead of switching to mesh. I've spent a lot of time now (over a year) learning mesh and texturing techniques and still have not finished a single product yet, although more than one are close. When I am done, I will probably put then up for sale, might even make a new account to do it with - depends on if I think it will be best to have a commercial account separate or not. Either way, I will be going from creating nothing at all to suddenly having some nice mesh creations as far as anyone else could see. Suggest I'm a thief and I'll file an AR. Let me see anything I create copied or distributed other than how I choose and I will file a DMCA and follow up through civil court - criminal if it applies (which I believe it will).

If the store is still open with stolen content for sale, then the real creator has done nothing about it, plain and simple. It is just as likely that they are legitimate creators and you and anyone else claiming different are outright wrong. If you aren't the true creator, you don't know. If you are, you can prove it, and nobody else can.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

I don't know about you, but after about the 20th DMCA, my legal thoughts would be that this DMCA thing is starting to look pretty useless in the face of the company that's complicit in letting it happen so easily in the first place.

In fact there has a case brought against LL for their complicity. As usual LL settled quietly.

So here we are, trying to identify and educate without going through another Redzone. When the DMCA process isn't working because the company too easily enables theft and refuses to act responsibly and allows their TOS to bypass the very thing (the real money) that would provide more legal options you do what you can until the next court case bubbles up.

Remember LL is the one that said these little things called L$ are just worthless tokens until the federal government defined it as virtual currency subject to the same fraud requirements as real money.

There's more to this than just the DMCA and a poor little helpless company in the face of thieves and millions of products that they could never possibly manage to police. LL sells stolen goods, they profit from the sale of stolen goods.

Eventually this argument is not going to help LL much at all.

But to dismiss it lightly among merchants trying for a solution outside of DMCA isn't quite fair. Because merchants unwittingly carry their own legal liability for selling stolen goods. That bit hasn't happened yet, but it could.

This is kind of the end result of LL trying to bypass every law known to man when it comes to their customers "money".

[Pamela Galli]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

LL sells stolen goods, they profit from the sale of stolen goods.

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LL is no different from all the other "free" 3D sites out there giving away or selling ripped mesh. Just bigger.

[Pamela Galli]

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They abslutely are not allowed to act in any way shape or form as if they can decide who is legally right or wrong in these cases. 

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Yes they can. 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Madeline Blackbart wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Gadget Portal wrote:

One even said that I was lying, because "if this stuff really was stolen, LL wouldn't let him sell it".

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Wasn't sure which emoticon was more appropriate, so used them both. 

Goes to the point that a good number of the SL customer base has no clue about all this.

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That and the customer base doesn't care to know either. Which just propagates the issue.

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Stores in world have become to hard to find, and when there is only one LL store, the Market Place, the customer has only two options;

1) buy from the MP with confidence.

2) don't buy from the Market Place, or any place, at all.

If there is a problem with stolen items being sold on the MP, the customer is the last place to put the blame, if even blaming them in the very smallest way, or at all.

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I didn't see anyone blaming the customer, in fact Tari specifically stated that while it was "Buyer Beware" (or words to that effect), that the onus for legitimate content rests squarely on the creator/merchant.

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The statement:

That and the customer base

doesn't care to know either.

Which just propagates the issue.

I could be reading it wrong, but its not that the customer doesn’t care, the customer has no way of knowing. So the customer is not propagating the issue, they have nothing to do with it. I am not going to investigate every little part of an item to see who made it.

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The statement you referenced was from Gadget.  Juuuusttt keeping who posted what straight.

As stated in one of my previous posts, broadbrushing words like "all" "none" "everyone," etc. are phrases I try to avoid as there are always exceptions.  With that said, I do agree with the message of Gadget's statement, just not with the assumption that the entire customer base doesn't care to know.  There are very discerning SL customers who shop often and have a keen eye and, for whatever reason, will inspect parts of an item, there are others who have heard about copybotting, etc. and care but, as you mentioned, don't have the inclination to microscopically look at every prim (I would fall into that category unless I saw something that was a "red flag," and there are certainly consumers within SL who just want the "shinies" and could care less, other than maybe price, about who created it, with what, and how.

But I will still agree and state that this issue is not in any way the customer's "fault" so we are in agreement I think.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Arken Soothsayer wrote:

I didn't say stealing was ok. And I don't believe there are many people who don't know that they're buying ripped content.

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I've been a creator for over 5 years and, except for either 1) blatant ripping such as items from games with which I am familiar (I only play a handful of MMORPGs so would have no earthly idea of content from others) or 2) items similar to what I create - one becomes very familiar (or should) with what their competitors offer and general building knowledge of that type of item.  I could likely identify a rip-off from a merchant with whose work I was familiar, but wouldn't recognize something copybotted that was used for aviation, just to use an example.

 

[Tari Landar]

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Arken Soothsayer wrote:

I didn't say stealing was ok. And I don't believe there are many people who don't know that they're buying ripped content.

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It may be your opinion that people DO know they are buying ripped content, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find many who share it with you.

Unless you're specifically talking about things such as characters from a game or something so terribly obvious anyone could see it, there is no reason to believe everyone(or the majority) will know it's ripped.

Take furniture for example. Can you look at every couch/sofa in sl and decide on sight-in the mp or inworld, rezzed or not-that is is indeed a rip and know where it came from? No need to answer that, we all know the answer. How about a shoe? A lamp? A fish? A glass? What, you can't? Shocker, isn't it.

Yes some people are more aware than others of ripped content and the places to look. Personally I think letting others know WHERE to look is a good stepping off point for us. This allows anybody the opportunity to help keep an eye out for one another. Not only will merchants be helped, but consumers also. This is one of the biggest hurdles to curbing this problem. Not everyone knows where to look to see if something is ripped. I can take all kinds of objects in sl and do a search for them and find VERY similar products....but how do I know it's exactly the same, all the time? I don't.

We have seen this particular problem a few times just on these forums alone. Merchants believing others have ripped their content because the similarities were uncanny. Now, that may not be typical, that two creators will-of their own free will with no influence-create nearly the same product. There will still be differences that typically only those with the knowledge of sculpt/mesh creation will actually be able to see. The average sl resident, can't. The average sl resident will see two water glasses that look exactly the same. The average sl resident won't know who ripped what from who, if they were to assume one was actually ripped(and sometimes, that's not the case).

So, better than telling people avoid all mesh or all sculpt, or all merchants under X days old, or all merchants without an inworld store, or all merchants who pop up magically with the talents of a seasoned vet...you get my point....I believe it's better to arm the consumer with knowledge. Offer up the places you know YOU check for ripped/stolen content, for others to check as well. Offer up the knowledge YOU have, instead of justc alling everyone else ignorant. Although they likely are ignorant(and I am using that word not in a negative way, but it's actual definition-having no knowledge of) you won't solve anything by simply saying they don't care. Maybe they do care, and they don't know where to start. Maybe they need some help to see why they should care. Maybe, some, really don't care, but in the process of trying to explain to them you can easily help the ones who do.

I just see no need in blaming the end user when in many cases(not all, we've gone over this) they really don't always know it's ripped content. I can think of a pretty, eh hem, infamous animations scandal that many, many residents were affected by, but had no idea the animations weren't allowed to be used/sold/given out, etc... Are all those reisdents fools for not knowing? Absolutely not. For the longest time only the creator community knew, along with the few we might have told. But it most certainly was NOT widespread knowledge.

That should be the first step, imo, get the knowledge out there and into the hands of those who need it, and will likely use it. Posting just here on these forums, or on slu does most residents absolutely no good. The majority of residents don't read forums, and have no desire to do so. You have to take that knowledge inworld, where it might actually have more of an impact. Here, you're just preaching to the choir on most subjects and while we all love to learn and come into new knowledge, we're a very small water drop in the giant ocean of sl, very small. Some, if not many, of us do know what to look for, and how to look for it. We're not doing the rest of sl any favors by not telling them too.

[Perrie Juran]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

I don't know about you, but after about the 20th DMCA, my legal thoughts would be that this DMCA thing is starting to look pretty useless in the face of the company that's complicit in letting it happen so easily in the first place.

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And how do you propose that they stop it?

And mind you, your proposal needs to be DCMA compliant and not interfere with "My World, My Imagination."

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

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Madeline Blackbart wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Gadget Portal wrote:

One even said that I was lying, because "if this stuff really was stolen, LL wouldn't let him sell it".

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Wasn't sure which emoticon was more appropriate, so used them both. 

Goes to the point that a good number of the SL customer base has no clue about all this.

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That and the customer base doesn't care to know either. Which just propagates the issue.

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Stores in world have become to hard to find, and when there is only one LL store, the Market Place, the customer has only two options;

1) buy from the MP with confidence.

2) don't buy from the Market Place, or any place, at all.

If there is a problem with stolen items being sold on the MP, the customer is the last place to put the blame, if even blaming them in the very smallest way, or at all.

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I didn't see anyone blaming the customer, in fact Tari specifically stated that while it was "Buyer Beware" (or words to that effect), that the onus for legitimate content rests squarely on the creator/merchant.

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The statement:

That and the customer base

doesn't care to know either.

Which just propagates the issue.

I could be reading it wrong, but its not that the customer doesn’t care, the customer has no way of knowing. So the customer is not propagating the issue, they have nothing to do with it. I am not going to investigate every little part of an item to see who made it.

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The statement you referenced was from Gadget.  Juuuusttt keeping who posted what straight.

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Since you want to keep it straight, let me help you out... it wasn't Gadget that made that statement, it was Madeline... just saying.  Anyway...

There will always be a portion of SL consumers that are clueless and always will be.  The same could be said for consumers in general... that's why there are laws in place to protect the innocent, ignorant masses from unscrupulous business practices.  While this will always be part of the problem, it in no way, puts any of the blame on those that don't know any better.  The key to minimizing the effect of this problem lies in education.

I was clueless to any of this, until I started reading threads such as this one in the forums, years ago.  I now consider myself one of those discerning SL customers of which you speak and still I have no real way of telling, without a doubt, whether or not a creator is using ripped mesh.  So you see, education can help make for better informed consumers, but it will never alleviate the problem all together.

The onus to police such matters lies with those who can actually do something about it... LL; legitimate content creators; the legal system and such, not some poor dolt that just wants to buy nice stuff and play with it.

...Dres

[Teagan Tobias]

I have not mentioned it before but have seen something close said by others, so I will say now, I have never played any on-line game, none, ever. My First Life and my Second Life are about all I can handle and I don't have time for mind numbing games. So if and when any reference is made of items ripped from other games, as I have seen, it will go right over my head. I think that is where some are saying, its so obvious you should know. Well no, its not obvious, and no, I don't know. I am that (as said by Dresden) “poor dolt that just wants to buy nice stuff and play with it”, well kind of, I don't like the dolt part. And I think there are others like me.