Mind Rape

[Malanya]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

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Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

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Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape.

I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use.

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Coercion needn't be physical. The goal and result of the coercion needn't be physical. People go to jail every day for committing crimes in which no physical harm is done to an individual. I'm way over my head on the legal issues here, but I think it's only a matter of time until the overarching ideas behind "mind rape" come before the court, if they haven't already.

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You're right coercion does not need to be physical, of course people go to jail for crimes that do not involve any physical harm. I just do not agree to anything called "mind rape" in a virtual world where someone chooses to participate. Anything outside of that like computer hacking is definitely a crime. As I stated in prior posts, if you can sign up you can hit the X to close the viewer. If you can be swayed into things by force on the internet in a virtual setting to which you chose to first act out then the problem goes deeper than any of us can realize. I can also see if such a thing as "mind rape" was considered to be a crime how many people would abuse that and be dishonest because of some personal spat they had with another, look at all the drama and BS on here now with jealousy, get you back for leaving me, etc. I just don't see it and anyone who is too young or emotionally unstable should have supervision (and yes there are parents and caregivers that work and still control online activity) so responsibility lies elsewhere to me.

[PudgyPaddy]

As long it is in SL.  Look around at all the bondage and collared players who post in this forum, it's why many are here - the sex.  Same issue with beastiality, is it rape if a furry rapes a human looking avatar in SL?  How do you explain to the authorities in real life that a half wolf, half pelican took you against your will?

In my opinion it was a foolish question that was asked.    

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Malanya wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

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Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

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Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape.

I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use.

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Coercion needn't be physical. The goal and result of the coercion needn't be physical. People go to jail every day for committing crimes in which no physical harm is done to an individual. I'm way over my head on the legal issues here, but I think it's only a matter of time until the overarching ideas behind "mind rape" come before the court, if they haven't already.

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You're right coercion does not need to be physical, of course people go to jail for crimes that do not involve any physical harm. I just do not agree to anything called "mind rape" in a virtual world where someone chooses to participate. Anything outside of that like computer hacking is definitely a crime. As I stated in prior posts, if you can sign up you can hit the X to close the viewer. If you can be swayed into things by force on the internet in a virtual setting to which you chose to first act out then the problem goes deeper than any of us can realize. I can also see if such a thing as "mind rape" was considered to be a crime how many people would abuse that and be dishonest because of some personal spat they had with another, look at all the drama and BS on here now with jealousy, get you back for leaving me, etc. I just don't see it and anyone who is too young or emotionally unstable should have supervision (and yes there are parents and caregivers that work and still control online activity) so responsibility lies elsewhere to me.

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Yep, I've yet to see a case of SL coercion that comes within a country mile of "mind rape". That said, "just click X" isn't always as easy as it sounds. We invest a lot of ourselves in our relationships here and coercion here can be very real. Clicking X often disconnects one from far more than the harasser.

I do wonder if we'll continue to see an erosion of personal responsibility as we learn more about ourselves. I sure hope not.

[Tamara Artis]

As Tex said, imagine a girl who is new to SL, and a guy who offers to explain her stuff, who buys her pretty shiny necklace or some other scripted thing, or tells her to turn on RLV saying it makes it easier to play the game, gives her a blindfold and other handy little things that once put on your avi, makes you pretty helpless, all with the excuse of "adding a friend" and the poor noob girl hesitates to just say no or quit sl. I have a cute thing, forgot the name, called forced something, and once I sit on the ball I can only watch whats going on so if some other person doesn't know whats it all about uses it, you can say that the person did not gave their consent, which is important in determing was it a rape or not. 

I am not sure if you can prosecute the person in rl because there are no physical evidences to confirm what the victim claims. Maybe in some distant future when the majority of online interactions get sorted by "law people"

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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for me i will say..when you have the option to have an option of making it stop or not happen at all..

then it's not rape..

not like the RL violent rape you are talking about would be..not the violent body and mind rape of having no choice in the matter..

because you don't know if you are going to live or die... and then even years after reliving every moment..and many times wishing you would have died..

i don't think there is an internet experience that could make that kind of mind rape possible..

 

i had gotten into a very heated argument back in the old old forums about this with someone before..

they kept insisting that it could leave the same impact and feelings and horror andtrauma and terror and damage ect to the person it happened to..over and over and over they just kept going off of what they read from some stuff they found on the internet  from people that did studies..

it never goes away from your mind..

where if someone did some cybor rape to me?

it just doesn't exist to me when i can pull the plug out of my wall and escape it..

there may be other kinds of rape that might be able to happen that are not violent..but even blackmail rape..you have the choice to walk away..unless someone elses life may be in danger..

that is the only reason i would ever let it happen..everything else is replacable..

 

 

 

[Malanya]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

---

Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

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Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape.

I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use.

---

Coercion needn't be physical. The goal and result of the coercion needn't be physical. People go to jail every day for committing crimes in which no physical harm is done to an individual. I'm way over my head on the legal issues here, but I think it's only a matter of time until the overarching ideas behind "mind rape" come before the court, if they haven't already.

---

You're right coercion does not need to be physical, of course people go to jail for crimes that do not involve any physical harm. I just do not agree to anything called "mind rape" in a virtual world where someone chooses to participate. Anything outside of that like computer hacking is definitely a crime. As I stated in prior posts, if you can sign up you can hit the X to close the viewer. If you can be swayed into things by force on the internet in a virtual setting to which you chose to first act out then the problem goes deeper than any of us can realize. I can also see if such a thing as "mind rape" was considered to be a crime how many people would abuse that and be dishonest because of some personal spat they had with another, look at all the drama and BS on here now with jealousy, get you back for leaving me, etc. I just don't see it and anyone who is too young or emotionally unstable should have supervision (and yes there are parents and caregivers that work and still control online activity) so responsibility lies elsewhere to me.

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Yep, I've yet to see a case of SL coercion that comes within a country mile of "mind rape". That said, "just click X" isn't always as easy as it sounds. We invest a lot of ourselves in our relationships here and coercion here can be very real. Clicking X often disconnects one from far more than the harasser.

I do wonder if we'll continue to see an erosion of personal responsibility as we learn more about ourselves. I sure hope not.

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You're right, clicking the X for some people may be harder because it also takes them away from other things in sl, I have a lot invested here as well but I won't let someone take over my second life. If the person isn't strong enough to take a break and walk away then maybe sl is not so healthy for them after all. We do have mute and to ignore a harasser is the best thing you can do, they don't feed on absence of communication/reaction too long. As far as your last sentence, I hope not too but many people in RL as well as SL feel they are not responsible for their own actions.

[Tex Monday]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

for me i will say..when you have the option to have an option of making it stop or not happen at all..

then it's not rape..

not like the RL violent rape you are talking about would be..not the violent body and mind rape of having no choice in the matter..

because you don't know if you are going to live or die... and then even years after reliving every moment..and many times wishing you would have died..

i don't think there is an internet experience that could make that kind of mind rape possible..

i had gotten into a very heated argument back in the old old forums about this with someone before..

they kept insisting that it could leave the same impact and feelings and horror andtrauma and terror and damage ect to the person it happened to..over and over and over they just kept going off of what they read from some stuff they found on the internet  from people that did studies..

it never goes away from your mind..

where if someone did some cybor rape to me?

it just doesn't exist to me when i can pull the plug out of my wall and escape it..

there may be other kinds of rape that might be able to happen that are not violent..but even blackmail rape..you have the choice to walk away..unless someone elses life may be in danger..

that is the only reason i would ever let it happen..everything else is replacable..

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As you may recall, I said my answer was a definative maybe. I am sure that you can't actually rape someone in SL, but you can start the act and it can go on as long until the person logs out.

And when we say "Hit the red X", I think we're talking about just logging out and relogging in. No one is saying anything about leaving SL. It's very easy to relog to your home or relog and turn off RLV. As I said, this kind of activity will go on until the "victim" decides they've had enough.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Tex Monday wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

for me i will say..when you have the option to have an option of making it stop or not happen at all..

then it's not rape..

not like the RL violent rape you are talking about would be..not the violent body and mind rape of having no choice in the matter..

because you don't know if you are going to live or die... and then even years after reliving every moment..and many times wishing you would have died..

i don't think there is an internet experience that could make that kind of mind rape possible..

i had gotten into a very heated argument back in the old old forums about this with someone before..

they kept insisting that it could leave the same impact and feelings and horror andtrauma and terror and damage ect to the person it happened to..over and over and over they just kept going off of what they read from some stuff they found on the internet  from people that did studies..

it never goes away from your mind..

where if someone did some cybor rape to me?

it just doesn't exist to me when i can pull the plug out of my wall and escape it..

there may be other kinds of rape that might be able to happen that are not violent..but even blackmail rape..you have the choice to walk away..unless someone elses life may be in danger..

that is the only reason i would ever let it happen..everything else is replacable..

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As you may recall, I said my answer was a definative maybe

. I am sure that you can't actually rape someone in SL, but you can start the act and it can go on as long until the person logs out.

And when we say "Hit the red X", I think we're talking about just logging out and relogging in. No one is saying anything about leaving SL. It's very easy to relog to your home or relog and turn off RLV. As I said, this kind of activity will go on until the "victim" decides they've had enough.

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actually i just only read the OP and responded to them.. i didn't read the thread or anyone elses posts..

i really thought hard about replying at all..but i know i would have been having this question on my mind at work tonight if i didn't say something..

i didn't really think it was going to be on this subject..

from past threads like this..i just always felt strongly to make it known that what happens on here in virtual..i just don't want it to desensitise the real violent thing that happens in the real world..

so much in the world gets desensitized and lost and covered over with more technical versions of horrible things..before we know it..there is a mass breakout of victims of it because there are so many catagories of it..

for me there is no choice to escape in violent rape..for something that i would grab any chance to escape it to make it stop..i just can't grasp not grabbing it and escaping to make it stop..

it's hard to explain without really going into it..

but being tired and past my time to sleep for work..it's best i don't..i tend to regret  things when i wake up and realize i've said them..

see i'm getting goofy already  hehehe

 

 

 

[Sephina Frostbite]

I've been told pose balls were for dancing when in fact they were for sex. I just got up and left. That was against my will but I stopped it. So Im not sure how it is possible. Even if you RLV you still have to give Permissions. You chose it. How would they rape you. Tell you to type naughty things.. Not sure if that would work if the victim didnt want it to happen. My personal thoughts anyway.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Tamara Artis wrote:

As Tex said, imagine a girl who is new to SL, and a guy who offers to explain her stuff, who buys her pretty shiny necklace or some other scripted thing, or tells her to turn on RLV saying it makes it easier to play the game, gives her a blindfold and other handy little things that once put on your avi, makes you pretty helpless, all with the excuse of "adding a friend" and the poor noob girl hesitates to just say no or quit sl. I have a cute thing, forgot the name, called forced something, and once I sit on the ball I can only watch whats going on so if some other person doesn't know whats it all about uses it, you can say that the person did not gave their consent, which is important in determing was it a rape or not. 

I am not sure if you can prosecute the person in rl because there are no physical evidences to confirm what the victim claims. Maybe in some distant future when the majority of online interactions get sorted by "law people"

 

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I think it would be very hard to make a case for emotional abuse of someone who'd voluntarily entered a social network and was quickly victimized. I believe it would be a valid argument to say that if a person can suffer emotional harm from someone in a social network within days of joining it (if not much longer), they're not competent to participate. We do recognize the limited competency of children, so they're a special case.

For something like online fraud, the required evidence is obtainable. If we're talking about pure emotional/mental harm, absent any other evidence (like loss of tangible property) I think it would be tough to prove. But as you say, in some distant future, we shouldn't be surprised to see that technology enables some very interesting lawyering.

[Azanor]

Did anybody see the original poster around?

[Efurou]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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It is a non issue - because it is not possible.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

no,  but seriously.......even if it was possible, or even if you are a noob.... how can someone compare what could be a rape of an avatar to a real rape ???? 

HOW ????

i guess pp need to have lived this in real to understand... i guess that maybe pp who never experienced this in real cant understand ?

How can someone compare what a person is feeling while she/he is raped with what someone is feeling while she/he is seing his/her avi raped...??  id just like to know how ????? really really.....

feeling like a **bleep** in front of someone who is denying all what we are, all our power to decide what we want for ourselves... feeling someone's part inside us, and seing this person enjoying it while you would want to be elsewhere and all your body wants to cry ?.... Do you think you can compare this, with a damn avatar shaked on balls ?????

i shouldnt have read this thread..... it gives me willings to vomit my dinner....

seriously.... SL is only pixels..... even if person are real behind.. the avatar is only pixel... and i d really like to know how can someone feel harmed bec an avatar abuse the same way than a rl rape...

dont get me wrong... i told it, pp are real behind avatars.. but really, the rape pain is something that can be felt behind an avatar. you can have lot of other pains, but not this one.....

and whatever you had physic injuries or not... the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

[Efurou]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

no,  but seriously.......even if it was possible, or even if you are a noob.... how can someone compare what could be a rape of an avatar to a real rape ???? 

HOW ????

 

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So very true! It is crazy to compare rl rape with someone staring at some pixel person at the screen who might be humped by another pixel person - until the one pixel person who might be tricked into the act can tp away.

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Efurou wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

no,  but seriously.......even if it was possible, or even if you are a noob.... how can someone compare what could be a rape of an avatar to a real rape ???? 

HOW ????

 

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So very true! It is crazy to compare rl rape with someone staring at some pixel person at the screen who might be humped by another pixel person - until the one pixel person who might be tricked into the act can tp away.

 

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its not only crazy... its stupid, ignorant and insulting the pp who have experienced this in real

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

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... yet.

There are those who believe we'll get to the point where our "virtual" experiences will be indistinguishable from our "real" ones.

If you believe it's all neurochemistry (as I do), it's not a huge stretch to imagine driving a brain to a truly harmfull state via real experiences, virtual ones, or pharmacological means.

I in no way wish to diminish the horror of RL rape, but I do find it interesting to ponder our growing ability to inflict pain (or pleasure) on each other using technology.

[Malanya]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

no,  but seriously.......even if it was possible, or even if you are a noob.... how can someone compare what could be a rape of an avatar to a real rape ???? 

HOW ????

i guess pp need to have lived this in real to understand... i guess that maybe pp who never experienced this in real cant understand ?

How can someone compare what a person is feeling while she/he is raped with what someone is feeling while she/he is seing his/her avi raped...??  id just like to know how ????? really really.....

feeling like a **bleep** in front of someone who is denying all what we are, all our power to decide what we want for ourselves... feeling someone's part inside us, and seing this person enjoying it while you would want to be elsewhere and all your body wants to cry ?.... Do you think you can compare this, with a damn avatar shaked on balls ?????

i shouldnt have read this thread..... it gives me willings to vomit my dinner....

seriously.... SL is only pixels..... even if person are real behind.. the avatar is only pixel... and i d really like to know how can someone feel harmed bec an avatar abuse the same way than a rl rape...

dont get me wrong... i told it, pp are real behind avatars.. but really, the rape pain is something that can be felt behind an avatar. you can have lot of other pains, but not this one.....

and whatever you had physic injuries or not... the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

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You are right, you can't experience this through an avatar. I realize everyone has the right to post on forums, but as I stated in my first post in this thread it's an insult to compare RL Rape to any thing virtual and it does insult the people that have experienced such a horrible encounter. Anyone can TP out and log off if they are uncomfortable and as another pointed out log on at home or somewhere else and disable RLV. Period. If someone is receiving threats to a RL matter and claims that they are being "forced" to cyber Rape is full of it because that's not virtual rape, that's criminal activity using  electronic communication.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

---

... yet.

There are those who believe we'll get to the point where our "virtual" experiences will be indistinguishable from our "real" ones.

If you believe it's all neurochemistry (as I do), it's not a huge stretch to imagine driving a brain to a truly harmfull state via real experiences, virtual ones, or pharmacological means.

I in no way wish to diminish the horror of RL rape, but I do find it interesting to ponder our growing ability to inflict pain (or pleasure) on each other using technology.

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it cant be in any way the same pain..... as i said... indeed, you can feel some hurts and pains thru sl but you cant call them "rape".. you cant even compare them ... its not denying the fact you can hurt other using technology... but damn the list of pains is enough wide like this... no need to call it rape... its not and cant be a rape... 

[Malanya]

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Azanor wrote:

Did anybody see the original poster around?

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Well with this kind of topic started you would think the OP would have come back. Maybe RL has kept the OP from coming back.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

the biggest pain after a rape, is not physical, but mental... you just feel like you have been amputed from all your body.... i dont think you can experience this thru an avatar.... 

---

... yet.

There are those who believe we'll get to the point where our "virtual" experiences will be indistinguishable from our "real" ones.

If you believe it's all neurochemistry (as I do), it's not a huge stretch to imagine driving a brain to a truly harmfull state via real experiences, virtual ones, or pharmacological means.

I in no way wish to diminish the horror of RL rape, but I do find it interesting to ponder our growing ability to inflict pain (or pleasure) on each other using technology.

---

it cant be in any way the same pain..... as i said... indeed, you can feel some hurts and pains thru sl but you cant call them "rape".. you cant even compare them ... its not denying the fact you can hurt other using technology... but damn the list of pains is enough wide like this... no need to call it rape... its not and cant be a rape... 

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I did say "... yet". I believe your "can't"s will be eroded by technological progress. It might not be a "rape", but something as egregious will happen via means we haven't yet imagined... or have.

[Amie Kaestner]

*puts a hand on your boob*

 

Whatcha gonna do now?

[Melita Magic]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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Obvious trollbait is obvious.

Rape is not a humorous topic.

[Donna Wyx]

"Seriously??? You DO realize that NO ONE can rape anyone in SL without YOUR consent, right????"

 

What if they have a cannon that fires a giant **bleep** and it locks onto your AV and goes up the **bleep** or anus quickly? Very little can be done to stop that. 

[Heart Brimmer]

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Donna Wyx wrote:

"Seriously??? You DO realize that NO ONE can rape anyone in SL without YOUR consent, right????"

 

What if they have a cannon that fires a giant **bleep** and it locks onto your AV and goes up the **bleep** or anus quickly? Very little can be done to stop that. 

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You are aware that you have not been physically impaled by whatever is launched out of a cannon, right? It's pixels, nothing more. It didn't really happen to you in real life. Please just click the little x in the right hand corner, if you think SL is ANYTHING like RL.

[Malanya]

That person didn't deserve your typed words. They are looking for an argument over this ridiculous thread that isn't there.

 

edit: the MO of this OP will follow with the usual thread such as This