Mind Rape

[Staralien]

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

[Eric Castanea]

Wut? 

[Dresden Ceriano]

I have to assume you mean this as a hypothetical situation, because there's no way I can figure out that it would be possible to do make someone go through something like that in SL if they didn't want to.  If nothing else there's Ctrl+Q.  That being said, if you somehow managed to take over their computer so that they couldn't stop it, it still isn't rape... but the act of taking over their computer could very well be a prosecutable crime.

...Dres

[Heart Brimmer]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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Seriously??? You DO realize that NO ONE can rape anyone in SL without YOUR consent, right???? Nothing is real in SL and there is always that little red x in the upper right hand corner....*geeze* goes back dealing with RL"

 

edited to add something.

[Tex Monday]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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This topic has been discussed many times, and I hesitate to bring it up again for the lashing I'm probably going to receive over it.

There have been threads concerning the Rape Parties (seen on the destinations screen) and locations that participate in this horrible act. In answer to your first question, IMO, the act could be started with the use of RLV...AV 1 throws AV2 on to a poseball and begins the act- blocks standing up or teleporting, although in a case like that AV1 could just log out and end it. So, technically...maybe is my definitive answer.

As for part two, I would have to say no. It could have an emotional effect on the person if it went on long enough, but I don't believe RL prosecution would be in order. I don't believe there is anything that could warrent a criminal act.

That's my two cents worth...I hope that I didn't offend with my remarks, but the forum is a place where opinions can be expressed...even if mine might possibly be wrong. Thanks....

[Malanya]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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No. You CAN'T rape an avatar or perform any "mind violence acts" on one. You do realize that any participation in anything that is viewed as violent is done because a person chooses to act it out? The person behind the avatar wants to participate. No people should not be prosecuted.  I can't even think of why you would bring up such a scenario that is impossible. There are many things that are considered violent in sl so maybe you should just unplug and walk away or ... ignore what others do that you are going to judge.

Rape is a serious RL act and I can't believe you are actually comparing it to kinks people have in sl and act out. That's an insult as I see it to anyone raped in RL. Mind rape omg.

Edit:

  

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/RAPE-PARTIES/m-p/1918881/#U1918881

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

The question is moot because it is just not possible to rape a normal mature person against their will anyplace in SL or anyplace in cyberspace.  You can just log off or in the case of SL, TP out.

For the sake of this discussion though, if such a thing were possible, then yes you should be able to prosecute them.  After all if you are raped in RL and not physically injured, the trauma is mostly in your mind.  You can prosecute that kind of rape, so why not virtual rape?

It does get stickier if a young child or mentally disabled adult is involved who may get so frightened they don't think about logging off. In a case like this yes you should be able to prosecute not only the raper but the person or persons who are responsible for the well being of the raped person who was negligent by allowing them on the internet without supervision.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I have to assume you mean this as a hypothetical situation, because there's no way I can figure out that it would be possible to do make someone go through something like that in SL if they didn't want to.  If nothing else there's Ctrl+Q.  That being said, if you somehow managed to take over their computer so that they couldn't stop it, it still isn't rape... but the act of taking over their computer could very well be a prosecutable crime.

...Dres

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i totally agree with that .

on top i add that using this word for things that are not related to real rape is an insult against every person who has been victim of a rape...

you can talk about mental abuse... but rape is different.

[Ren Toxx]

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Staralien wrote: [...] If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will [...] 

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But it isn't, and try as I might to get into your hyphotesis... I just can't see that happening. Even RLV is ultimately a free will act, and no matter how they'd improve it to make it harder for you to stop or escape from others doing things to you, it'd still be your responsibility and choice to activate it in the first place...

... unless they made it active by default... and my, I really, really don't see that happening, ever :smileywink:

[Malanya]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

I have to assume you mean this as a hypothetical situation, because there's no way I can figure out that it would be possible to do make someone go through something like that in SL if they didn't want to.  If nothing else there's Ctrl+Q.  That being said, if you somehow managed to take over their computer so that they couldn't stop it, it still isn't rape... but the act of taking over their computer could very well be a prosecutable crime.

...Dres

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i totally agree with that .

on top i add that using this word for things that are not related to real rape is an insult against every person who has been victim of a rape...

you can talk about mental abuse... but rape is different.

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Yes, a criminal act to access someone's computer is a crime, but RL rape is so very different. Those people didn't CHOOSE to participate in the act.

[Malanya]

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

If a child or adult who is not mentally capable is involved in any virtual acts like this, I feel that the caregiver or the parents are the ones who should be responsible. A disabled person who is mentally unstable should have supervision for many reasons if on the internet for protection not just virtual worlds. A child who is not monitored while on their computer is a bad idea. I know many people who don't allow their kids to use any computers unless its in a common space in the home and can be seen when someone walks by what they are up to online. If it's a teenager who is home alone playing on the computer, that has no mental health issues, well they created the account so I am sure they can close the window, TP out as someone else suggested. If they signed on using an adult's account in the home then I guess the adult shouldn't use "save password" at sign in for any site that is not suitable for a kid.

[Tex Monday]

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

 

I don't think there would be any PHYSICAL injuries. There might very well be mental or emotional injuries, especially if the person has a mental handicap. To be physical, they would actually have to be in the same room with you.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

If you subscribe to Ray Kurzweil's "singularity" vision, I imagine this could one day come before the courts. Emotional and mental abuse are not (as far as I know, which ain't a lot) illegal, though they may be grounds for consideration in divorces, child custody battles and the like. The problem with such abuse is that it's difficult to prove. There is no clear physical evidence of the transgression, so it becomes a matter of one's words against another's.

If you forsee a future in which we merge with technology, there may well be tangible evidence of our thoughts, just as there is a trail of our interactions here on SL's backup servers. The SL trail might offer the courts a glimpse into our thoughts, but nothing more. In a future where our thinking might be peformed or recorded by machines, I imagine we'd have conversations about "mind rape". We may also have conversations about "mind rewind" and countless other things we've not yet anticipated.

ETA: One could also imagine a future in which something like Functional MRI gets close enough to peering into our thoughts that we might find evidence of mental abuse. The courts will follow the science.

[Malanya]

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Tex Monday wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

 

I don't think there would be any PHYSICAL injuries. There might very well be mental or emotional injuries, especially if the person has a mental handicap. To be physical, they would actually have to be in the same room with you.

 

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I am referring to RL rape Tex and I do believe that when a person who is raped in RL do have physical injuries from force no matter how someone may minimize it because you can't see external signs. Force is force and in RL any force has some physical AS WELL as emotional affect.

[Canoro Philipp]

defining "rape" as being forced to commit sexual activities against your own will, i could see a possibility, like threatening a user that has given some private information to expose that information if the person dont perform sexually for the other user. or threating to Abuse Report the other and cancel their account if sex doesnt happen.

there must be laws against threating someone to perform sexual acts, doesnt matter if the threat happen using the internet or not.

one thing to consider, is that not all the users of second life are american, and the law of the united states dont cover the entire planet.

 

[Sabean Pagan]

Do you think that the promotion on the destination guide of places that advertise such acts could  promote someone to transition to commit the act in RL?

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

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Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

defining "rape" as being forced to commit sexual activities against your own will, i could see a possibility, like threatening a user that has given some private information to expose that information if the person dont perform sexually for the other user. or threating to Abuse Report the other and cancel their account if sex doesnt happen.

there must be laws against threating someone to perform sexual acts, doesnt matter if the threat happen using the internet or not.

one thing to consider, is that not all the users of second life are american, and the law of the united states dont cover the entire planet.

 

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I haven't been following the laws concerning bullying, but the general drift seems to be in the direction of allowing prosecution of individuals who cause emotional harm, with no requirement for direct compulsion of the victim. This requires clear evidence of a history of harassment, which might not be available in the case of a "mind rape". I'm far too ignorant of law to make a cogent argument here, but technology's increasing presence in our lives, its unfailing memory, and our ever increasing understanding of our own brains gives me reason to think that this general drift will continue.

[Malanya]

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Sabean Pagan wrote:

Do you think that the promotion on the destination guide of places that advertise such acts could  promote someone to transition to commit the act in RL?

 

 

 

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No I do not think it would promote someone to transition to RL rape. I strongly feel, for reasons of knowing people in RL that have been victimized, that a person who is going to commit a violent crime is going to do it because it's part of their make up whatever that may be. I don't personally care for those type of things in the destination guide so I do not have adult checked for my search. I don't judge people for what they do in sl, it's not for me to do.

[Tex Monday]

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Malanya wrote:

I am referring to

RL rape

Tex and I do believe that when a person who is raped in RL do have physical injuries from force no matter how someone may minimize it because you can't see external signs. Force is force and in RL any force has some physical AS WELL as emotional affect.

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Of course I missed that when I read the response. I thought we were still talking about SL. You are absolutely right in that respect.

My apologies.....:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

[Malanya]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

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Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

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Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape.

I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

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Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

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Courts do not require evidence of physical harm in rape cases. They simply need evidence that non consentual sex occurred. A man who trips over a frog and brushes my breast with his hand on his way to the ground may leave a bruise on me and be innocent of any wrong doing. Another man who gently and purposefully brushes my breast with his hand in the elevator as he escorts me to my job interview will have some explaining to do, even though there's no physical harm.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Malanya wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Malanya wrote:

Isn't a person who is raped in RL still physically injured in some way even if there are no cuts, bruising, etc? I mean a physically forced act has to injure you even if in the slightest way.

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Generally I agree.  However I have taken self defense classes that discuss rape and law enforcement officers will sometimes tell you if you are raped in RL and see no way to prevent it, the best thing to do is not resist so you won't get injured.  So there may be a very slight possibility this could happen.

There is also the situation where someone is forced to have sex with someone because they have a gun pointed at them and if they don't cooperate they will get shot.  To me this is just another form of rape. 

For the sake of this discussion I just brought it up as a hypothetical situation to make my point that you should be able to prosecute someone who virtually rapes you, should such a thing ever be possible, just as you could in RL if you were raped but suffered no actual physical harm.

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Oh I agree with you that if there is no way to get out of the situation to not resist. My point was there is always some amount of physical harm when force is used especially in RL rape.

I just can't see anyone being virtually raped or that ever being something that could be true, as people sign up for virtual accounts, people know how to click on TP to area and people also know how to shut the computer down. If someone engages in RP they knowingly got there so they can leave. As Dres pointed out if someone is in your computer that's a different type of crime and that should definitely be prosecuted. If people give out passwords or RL information and then someone threatens them, they should have known better to not have given out that info as common sense would tell you not to. If the person is mentally unable to make such decisions the caregiver I still feel is responsible for allowing an individual un supervised internet use.

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Coercion needn't be physical. The goal and result of the coercion needn't be physical. People go to jail every day for committing crimes in which no physical harm is done to an individual. I'm way over my head on the legal issues here, but I think it's only a matter of time until the overarching ideas behind "mind rape" come before the court, if they haven't already.

[Malanya]

Oh I realized you thought I meant SL, no worries

[Czari Zenovka]

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Staralien wrote:

Here's a can of worms I just opened:

If your avatar is raped, (if such a thing were possible to do against your will) can you prosecute the person in real life? Should you be able to? Rape is a violent act, and in this case it would be basically raping someone's mind. Mind rape.

 

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Some woman on IRC years ago came crying into a popular channel saying she was "raped" on IRC.  She basically got laughed out of the room - online there is that little X on the top corner of one's viewer and/or program.