Phil Deakins Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 garey Solo wrote: Yes we've all heard that SL is slowly declining. But why? Because people are so reluctant to spend. No customers no creators , no world. Go figure. SL is in a slow decline but the population spending less money with creators isn't the reason, so supporting creators, by spending more with them, won't arrest the slow decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carole Franizzi Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Correct me if I'm wrong. In theory we could all spend a fortune in creators' shops but if those creators didn't then invest in bigger and bigger plots of land or more and more branches, then LL wouldn't get any direct benefit (more income), right? Asking people to "support" creators as if they were a charity, makes as much sense as LL coming in here and appealling to creators to open up more shops to "support" SL. SL's problems are other issues and, I suspect, a bit more complex than the OP's analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Randall Ahren wrote: It's not our world, it's their world, and they do things with it such as eliminate last names, copy the wall from Facebook, let spammers run rampant on the forum, post at SLU, and require profiles to be G rated. When Philip Rosedale said he was building a new country, he didn't necessarily mean a country with a government that operated in the best interests of its residents. i don't understand that part? post at SLU? hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carole Franizzi Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Ceka Cianci wrote: Carole Franizzi wrote: My suggestion would be to open your mind to the teeny-weeny possiblity that one day SL might just close. That way, IF it happens, it won't be such a shock to you. this is the stage i have come to myself..since the first doomsday or sl is dying thread that i had seen all through the rest after it.. if it closes what would happen? or if you had so much time left what would you do? the first answe would be ..probably get on with life and survive it..the second answer would be..i hate long good bye's so i would probably pack what i could that was actually mine and log off..why wait for the blackout.. it's gonna close someday..just like RL will.. only we still get to breath after this one closes..so thats a plus hehehehe Ah, yes. Better finding out that your avie is condemned, rather than you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 i feel if creators (and i don't mean all of them) were worried about in world numbers and SL survival that they would not have jumped on the market place selling almost their whole stockthat is in their in world stores already..wouldn't a smarter move if in world support was the real concern to just put up demos or samples of products to enhance their in world sales? nope..just as anything else..they had to have a second market because it's not really about SL survival more than it is self preserving on an individual basis ..it's about money and getting as much as can be gotten before the ship sinks with all possible channels.. some even just dump their land and sell on the market not having in world stores.. want to know why inworld traffic numbers are down and inworld sales are down..because they made it easier for us to stay at home and shop online..it weakend the first market instead of actually adding a second.. this in turn stops people from seeing the world.. when new people to the grid ask where they can get this or that..the number one response is ..check the market place or here is a link to the certain thing on the market place..if it is not on the market then it doesn't exist.. they see less of the world and learn faster to just shop right from the pickin's on the market.. want more inworld sales..put up samples or demos on the market place and keep the sales of the actual content in world along with the traffic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Ceka Cianci wrote: i feel if creators (and i don't mean all of them) were worried about in world numbers and SL survival that they would not have jumped on the market place selling almost their whole stockthat is in their in world stores already..wouldn't a smarter move if in world support was the real concern to just put up demos or samples of products to enhance their in world sales? nope..just as anything else..they had to have a second market because it's not really about SL survival more than it is self preserving on an individual basis ..it's about money and getting as much as can be gotten before the ship sinks with all possible channels.. some even just dump their land and sell on the market not having in world stores.. want to know why inworld traffic numbers are down and inworld sales are down..because they made it easier for us to stay at home and shop online..it weakend the first market instead of actually adding a second.. this in turn stops people from seeing the world.. when new people to the grid ask where they can get this or that..the number one response is ..check the market place or here is a link to the certain thing on the market place..if it is not on the market then it doesn't exist.. they see less of the world and learn faster to just shop right from the pickin's on the market.. want more inworld sales..put up samples or demos on the market place and keep the sales of the actual content in world along with the traffic.... ^ This right here, Miss Ceka, hits the nail on the head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Ahren Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Ceka Cianci wrote: i don't understand that part? post at SLU? I don't think it's a good idea for Lindens to be posting as Lindens at unofficial forums. This is the official SL forum here and they should post here to build traffic and get more people to sign up to be residents, not at SLU. I understand why they post at SLU, less spam for one and more traffic according to this thread where a Linden had been posting about the trending tab at SLU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristizia Demonista Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Maybe they post there , because it is a forum about SL after all ? The users there (which also might or might not be posting here) care as much about SL as anyone here. And if there IS more attention to get, i rather find it a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Pussycat Catnap wrote: SL isn't dying and business isn't slowing. Its just moving around. Moving around in very broad ways, too, and much more fundamental shifts than just adding the nerfed-to-irrelevance Mesh feature to existing businesses. Creators need to get used to the idea that whole categories of virtual business are going to fade as others rise. For example, there's a tremendous amount of money now shifting from stuff like clothing over to breedables. Yet more will get sucked out of once-profitable pursuits, after Rodvik's internal gaming features are available. It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but it's not an infinite fountain of fresh spacebux either. So if a famous oldbie design company isn't doing so well these days, well, what would one expect, with all the wealth destroyed speculating on the previous generation of beanie babies breedables? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Randall Ahren wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: i don't understand that part? post at SLU? I don't think it's a good idea for Lindens to be posting as Lindens at unofficial forums. This is the official SL forum here and they should post here to build traffic and get more people to sign up to be residents, not at SLU. I understand why they post at SLU, less spam for one and more traffic according to this thread where a Linden had been posting about the trending tab at SLU. thank you for clearing that up.. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Carole Franizzi wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong. In theory we could all spend a fortune in creators' shops but if those creators didn't then invest in bigger and bigger plots of land or more and more branches, then LL wouldn't get any direct benefit (more income), right? That's more or less my thinking. Whether or not SL closes down has everything to do with whether or not LL consider it worthwhile continuing. When it's no longer worthwhile for LL, SL will close. So it's payments to LL that matter, and not payments to users (creators). Creators take money out of SL, or they'd like to I made a load of money selling my stuff here, but LL didn't get an extra penny of it, so it didn't do anything at all towards the continuance of SL. (I actually bought much more land than I needed so I paid LL more, but that was because I wanted to eventually acquire the whole sim, and nothing to do with business necessity.) But it's not about creators earning more money and buying more land. It's about users having land and paying tier to LL. If the number of people using SL is dwindling, which it is, then as time goes by there will be fewer people paying money to LL, and there will eventually come a time when SL is no longer worth keeping going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Ahren Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 There's a tax on creators though, right? LL gets a little slice when you convert L$ to real money. Another slice is taken when the real money is transferred out. There is also a slice taken from the marketplace. I think it's 5% rounded to the nearest L$ for each sale of at least L$10. So the better creators do, the better LL does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Yes, there's US$1 charge for transfering US$ to PayPal, regardless of the amount so that's irrelevant, and a charge for selling L$ for US$, so LL does get some money from that. They also get some the other way - when people buy L$. And they get a cut of MP sales too. LL gets money from a number of sources, but I'm pretty sure that by far the biggest source is tier. If tier was their only income, SL wouldn't need to close, but, if they lost the tier, I've no doubt that they'd have to close SL. As I see it, tier is their staple diet and the other things are just bits of jam on it. Look at it this way. If there were no landowners, LL wouldn't have an income from the land and they'd have a decimated income from other sources:- nobody would buy anything for their land because they don't have any - no houses and buildings, no furniture, no plants of any kind, no club gear, no breedables, etc. etc. - and there wouldn't be much in the way of exchange commissions because people wouldn't need L$, except for clothes, anims (but where would they use them), and such. As long as there are enough landowners to pay enough tier, which would make it so that L$ are worth buying, etc., LL can keep SL going. But the fewer landowners there are, the less income LL gets from all sources, especially tier. If the slow decline continues, there will eventually come a time when there aren't enough landowners paying tier for LL to keep SL going. And that brings me back to my point, that it's concurrency that matters and not creators. If concurrency (people using SL) continues to decline, there will be fewer and fewer landowners paying tier, which will mean that SL will end. It shouldn't happen in the near term, but the decline is continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Randall Ahren wrote: There's a tax on creators though, right? LL gets a little slice when you convert L$ to real money. Another slice is taken when the real money is transferred out. There is also a slice taken from the marketplace. I think it's 5% rounded to the nearest L$ for each sale of at least L$10. So the better creators do, the better LL does. users paying that tax on buying lindens are pitching in on that as well..if it were not for them..nobody would be cashing out or paying that market fee.. land is the back bone to it all..without new users to come in and fill the void on land..a lot of those creators will fade away.. our big problem is we are not keeping the influx of new users.. we could say that a lot of creators are part of the problem as well..a lot of users are part of the problem right along side them.. look how new people are treated by people that have been around... they get called noobs and get scammed and taken or made fun of or griefed or bitten or razzed by cliques ect..all because they are easy targets.. this world takes for granted it's future residents rather than grabing hold of them to protect them from all those others that are trying to use them for the quickies.. we can blame LL till the sun comes up again..but it won't put food on the table or people buying up that empty land.. a lot of new people don't understand a lot of the second life problems that older residents have with LL..so thats not what is keeping them away.. they are the future of second life no matter how we slice it..because without influx and longevity from them today..we won't stand a chance tomorrow..older users are going to leave..they always have..but the void was always filled.. that void is not being filled today..the drop in population is because we are just not keeping here what we used to keep here.. we used to keep about 20% of the influx..i wonder what it is today.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Ceka Cianci wrote: Randall Ahren wrote: It's not our world, it's their world, and they do things with it such as eliminate last names, copy the wall from Facebook, let spammers run rampant on the forum, post at SLU, and require profiles to be G rated. i don't understand that part? post at SLU? SImple: neglect their own means of communication in favor of another where they have less ability to control the dialog and benefit from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Carole Franizzi wrote: My suggestion would be to open your mind to the teeny-weeny possiblity that one day SL might just close. That way, IF it happens, it won't be such a shock to you. Eventually I presume. But it just isn't happening yet. In fact even land ownership, despite Marketplace, has remained constant. I decry Marketplace's negative impact on inworld activity all the time, but gridsurvey appears to suggest I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Tristizia Demonista wrote: Maybe they post there , because it is a forum about SL after all ? The users there (which also might or might not be posting here) care as much about SL as anyone here. A good number of the users, at least the regular posters and maybe not the lurkers, are former SL people who've been perma-banned but still linger. But Lindens should be holding their dialog under their own brand's umbrella. And if their forum isn't suited to it, changing it until it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Qie Niangao wrote: Pussycat Catnap wrote: SL isn't dying and business isn't slowing. Its just moving around. Moving around in very broad ways, too, and much more fundamental shifts than just adding the nerfed-to-irrelevance Mesh feature to existing businesses. Creators need to get used to the idea that whole categories of virtual business are going to fade as others rise. For example, there's a tremendous amount of money now shifting from stuff like clothing over to breedables. Yet more will get sucked out of once-profitable pursuits, after Rodvik's internal gaming features are available. I have a feeling breedable's days are numbered as well. Even the Meeroo market has crashed. Maybe not the entire concept numbered, but breedables are a great example of your point in mini. Each line of them come out, peaks, and crashes - in a very short cycle. Leaving a lot of people left holding valueless goods while earlier adopters cash out. - The larger cycle of how things shift from A to B is repeated in a smaller faster version within that micro-market. Makes me wonder what will replace Meeroos. Its right about the proper time for the next entrant to sweep up the fad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Pussycat Catnap wrote: Tristizia Demonista wrote: Maybe they post there , because it is a forum about SL after all ? The users there (which also might or might not be posting here) care as much about SL as anyone here. A good number of the users, at least the regular posters and maybe not the lurkers, are former SL people who've been perma-banned but still linger. But Lindens should be holding their dialog under their own brand's umbrella. And if their forum isn't suited to it, changing it until it is. thats not really right..you have a lot that were in the xstreet forums over there and in second city forums as well..also a lot from RA that gave up after their last version of the forums..the blogrums.. there are some permabanned people over there but a lot over there are just creators and residents that used to be in older forums not around anymore.. Sion for instance..the one that created the media filters..he is in SLU.. those forums were a big part of why there is no redzone now and there is a TOS change..while threads were getting closed here left and right about that situation..that forum kept a constant feed on what was going on.. i use both myself..just as i did RA and xstreet forums.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Ceka Cianci wrote: we could say that a lot of creators are part of the problem as well..a lot of users are part of the problem right along side them.. look how new people are treated by people that have been around... they get called noobs and get scammed and taken or made fun of or griefed or bitten or razzed by cliques ect..all because they are easy targets.. this world takes for granted it's future residents rather than grabing hold of them to protect them from all those others that are trying to use them for the quickies.. To be fair most users don't treat new people that way. Its a select few, who are people not capable of comprehending the consewuences of their actions. To some people having a 'right to act a certain way' means that they have a right to suffer no consequences from it. - A guy in my high school in the 80s used to note that pedestrians had a right of way even when jaywalking, so he would walk right out into the street in the midle of moving traffic without looking because it was his right of way. Its a miracle that, up until the point I no longer knew him, he never got hit by any of the screeching cars trying to stop in time... - That is the griefer mentality: "My right, my capability, so consequences are not possible." (Read SLU for a little while, until one of the ex-SLers starts getting into a discussion, and you'll see this mentality from a person more capable of expressive thought than your typical griefer - but still possessed of the mental deficiency that prevents them from anticipating potential consequences of their entitlement-actions.) But this is a very small set of people. The problem is that so few can have so great an impact when the focal points where newbies are easily identified are so underpoliced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Pussycat Catnap wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: we could say that a lot of creators are part of the problem as well..a lot of users are part of the problem right along side them.. look how new people are treated by people that have been around... they get called noobs and get scammed and taken or made fun of or griefed or bitten or razzed by cliques ect..all because they are easy targets.. this world takes for granted it's future residents rather than grabing hold of them to protect them from all those others that are trying to use them for the quickies.. To be fair most users don't treat new people that way. Its a select few, who are people not capable of comprehending the consewuences of their actions. To some people having a 'right to act a certain way' means that they have a right to suffer no consequences from it. - A guy in my high school in the 80s used to note that pedestrians had a right of way even when jaywalking, so he would walk right out into the street in the midle of moving traffic without looking because it was his right of way. Its a miracle that, up until the point I no longer knew him, he never got hit by any of the screeching cars trying to stop in time... - That is the griefer mentality: "My right, my capability, so consequences are not possible." (Read SLU for a little while, until one of the ex-SLers starts getting into a discussion, and you'll see this mentality from a person more capable of expressive thought than your typical griefer - but still possessed of the mental deficiency that prevents them from anticipating potential consequences of their entitlement-actions.) But this is a very small set of people. The problem is that so few can have so great an impact when the focal points where newbies are easily identified are so underpoliced. i was using a lot as not meaning everyone..i guess i could have said some hehehehe.. there are enough and they are not all just griefers in our terms of a griefer...i mean i guess you could call it causing grief.. it's been a good bit since we were new..they have a lot more definitions of it than we do now hehehehe my main point is..if people are leaving and nobody new is staying around.. that there is something keeping them away..to say it is LL and the things we see that get us upset about LL would not be something they really would know being so new.. so what else could it be..i don't mean to say it is only users or all users..but users are a good contributor.. there are a lot of nice people going out of their way for new people as well.. but even in these forums we will see a new person asking a question and getting a smartass reply..a lot of times on the first post..depending on the thread..it could go either way..a pile up or someone coming in to put a stop to it..this is not all the time but it happens enough to notice hehehehe and i love your last line because it really is more or less what my concern is when it comes to new people.. when redzone was going on..my biggest thing about that whole mess..i mean the thing that burnt my blood was thinking of the few that had RZ that were scanning all those new people that more than likely were still sitting on default settings.. i just felt like there was a new person getting scanned every minute..even though it was probably less..but it made me so mad thinking that it was going on and LL was moving so slow...just blood boiling pissed about not being able to inform new people fast enough to warn them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac91 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Do have faith, the future is nothing more than a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayalily Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 garey Solo wrote: Yes we've all heard that SL is slowly declining. But why? Because people are so reluctant to spend. No customers no creators , no world. Go figure. Have you noticed lately that the larger more established businesses don't advertise in search anymore, Their traffic stats are ridiculously low. Its a real shame... SL winding down like an old worn out grandfather clock. Slowly ticking,ticking away and then one day shuddering to a halt. So do something about it ... support the creators who make SL what it is. It's a buyer's market right now and has been a buyer's market for years since the global recessions. Once an item is made, it's made. Sell your items for less, and you will see customer's. I go for the deals plus the quality. Charge less and your business will pick up. I skip thousands of items and creator's because they simply charge too much for a item that can be copied over and over. Also, with mesh and spulpties, that is far, far less than prims. Perhaps LL should make it .30 lindens to the sculpty or mesh instead of 1L per prim (If I have that info correct on the prim). It could and should reduce land and tier costs by 2/3's, as I have like a 4 prim harp, a 2 prim sculpty fireplace, 1 prim rather nice armchairs. I love sculpties and GOOD low prim items. Get into sculpties and mesh, people want more for their money. There is also a very nice grand piano on Marketplace that is made of 1 prim. AMAZING! As far as clothes though, I still like the kind that resize to my shape, rather than having to wear a cloned alpha layer shape for mesh clothing. However, the creator's that want a lot for their items, I skip over, as there are tons of creator's making items for less and perhaps even with superior quality. Get to know how a business works, and advertise your quality and afforable items. Ebay was the same way when it started -- less dealers meant higher profits. When I worked as a seller on eBay research what is hot and currently selling, and offer a better price, but advertise on eBay with keyword search is what it was all about, as remember people need to find the things you are selling. It takes research and hard work to make it in a business that isn't so "new" anymore. But, in a buyer's market, reduce your costs as you have no other choice. This is no longer a seller's market and will not be for years too come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Ceka Cianci wrote: so what else could it be..i don't mean to say it is only users or all users..but users are a good contributor.. there are a lot of nice people going out of their way for new people as well.. but even in these forums we will see a new person asking a question and getting a smartass reply..a lot of times on the first post..depending on the thread..it could go either way..a pile up or someone coming in to put a stop to it..this is not all the time but it happens enough to notice hehehehe and i love your last line because it really is more or less what my concern is when it comes to new people.. Oh yeah. For a newbie... effective griefing isn't just the classicial harrassment. Just getting a cold shoulder when you walk about can enough to turn you off if you don't yet have any 'emotional investment' in the experience. That's why I always -try- to be 3x as understanding with new folks, and offer them random tidbits when I see them. ALso why I wrote my geting started blog (that was motivated by a desire to update the blog, from someone else, that helped me get back into SL when I returned in 2009, a blog that hadn't been updated since I'dleft in 2006). - Proactively help new people, and they'll stick around. Sadly they won't always end up being -your- friends per se. But they will add to overall social community that is SL. I'll get on someone's case in the forums if they're not new - after they've been posting for a while, and especially if they post, lots of people give them a good answer, but they refuse to hear it and keep asking the question (as opposed to even coming back with answers as to why those suggestion were not ideal for them and perhaps could someone refine). But a pure newbie is best helped past the hurdles we all know SL puts in front of folks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scripts1488303089 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Mayalily wrote: It's a buyer's market right now and has been a buyer's market for years since the global recessions. Once an item is made, it's made. Sell your items for less, and you will see customer's. I go for the deals plus the quality. Charge less and your business will pick up. I skip thousands of items and creator's because they simply charge too much for a item that can be copied over and over. Also, with mesh and spulpties, that is far, far less than prims. Perhaps LL should make it .30 lindens to the sculpty or mesh instead of 1L per prim (If I have that info correct on the prim). It could and should reduce land and tier costs by 2/3's, as I have like a 4 prim harp, a 2 prim sculpty fireplace, 1 prim rather nice armchairs. I love sculpties and GOOD low prim items. Get into sculpties and mesh, people want more for their money. There is also a very nice grand piano on Marketplace that is made of 1 prim. AMAZING! As far as clothes though, I still like the kind that resize to my shape, rather than having to wear a cloned alpha layer shape for mesh clothing. However, the creator's that want a lot for their items, I skip over, as there are tons of creator's making items for less and perhaps even with superior quality. Get to know how a business works, and advertise your quality and afforable items. Ebay was the same way when it started -- less dealers meant higher profits. When I worked as a seller on eBay research what is hot and currently selling, and offer a better price, but advertise on eBay with keyword search is what it was all about, as remember people need to find the things you are selling. It takes research and hard work to make it in a business that isn't so "new" anymore. But, in a buyer's market, reduce your costs as you have no other choice. This is no longer a seller's market and will not be for years too come. Wow. Just WOW. I think you nailed it. I have never read such insightful words. I did not understand any of it, but I really felt like they meant something to you. I think you should take these concepts to a global level: marketing, finance, design; WOW you nailed it all. Are you free tonight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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