How text-only viewers might be able to save us some of us from PBR

[SandorWren]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There IS an in-world FS group for Mac users that I know has been very busy working through, and helping people with, the Mac-specific issues that have arisen with the new FS release. I have a friend who has made use of it.

She could also consider Alchemy, which is available to Mac users. I can't speak to the Mac version myself, but the Windows version is very good. It lacks some of the functionality of FS, but more is being added regularly (Area Search is coming, I've been told). It's definitely faster than FS, and it looks good.

Nicely put.

I keep telling Caitlin to ask for help. I even sent her Maddie's post about adjusting some settings. She's too afraid to muck around with more than basic things, in case she messes something up on her actual OS.. 

She HAS tried Alchemy, and it DID work for her. She just didn't like it. But the non PBR version of FS runs fine for her.

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

Discord is great once you find a group, but IME people are not likely to run across one within Discord, you have to know a server exists and then join. Sure, a group of people who hang in SL could start a server, and I guess that happens quite a lot. However, without people congregating in SL itself, new people are not going to find the group and the group is not going to find new people (and maybe they don’t want to, SL seems really clique-oriented for the last 10+ years).

   Some people slap their Discord ID in their profiles. Not an approach I'd want for myself as I'd rather get to know someone first, but, whatever floats people's boats. There's also some stores, events, and venues that have Discord servers which are linked to via in-world signs and group descriptions. Also if you search for 'Second Life' in the server directory you'll find a few (but far from all of them, not actually sure how to list your server into the directory or such as I've never done it myself).

   It is a little strange that LL haven't made any official SL Discord server (unless they did and I missed it), almost all video games will have them even before they release these days, and it would be a very easy way to connect people who plonk down in the newbie hub to the broader SL community. A Hell to moderate, perhaps - but I'm sure Quartz could handle it! It'll be just like the forums. Except live. And probably with more people in it. And all the gifs.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, SandorWren said:

I keep telling Caitlin to ask for help. I even sent her Maddie's post about adjusting some settings. She's too afraid to muck around with more than basic things, in case she messes something up on her actual OS.. 

Yeah, this is an issue that we've dealt with before here. People don't really understand how computers work: they are "magic" in some regards. And they don't want to muck around with them, especially if they are being used for things like work.

1 minute ago, SandorWren said:

She HAS tried Alchemy, and it DID work for her. She just didn't like it. But the non PBR version of FS runs fine for her.

It does have a different UI, but I haven't found it really alien from FS? And one can customize the layout somewhat, putting buttons along the bottom, top, and sides. But I get it.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

She's suggesting that the computing requirements for PBR viewers is in essence putting a "price tag" on our friendships there

Actually, it's more mocking the Futureness cultist's "industry standard help(tm)" that they keep trotting out, and then parroting their accusations against anyone who still doesn't love "PBR Futureness".

The only thing of theirs I left out was suggesting that Sandor might need to adjust the settings on his friends.

 

Edit: And suggesting that he could get slightly used modern industry standard friends that had been thrashed half to death by Crypto Miners, 2nd hand on EBay for very reasonable prices. 

Edited August 13 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Janet Voxel]

5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

  It is a little strange that LL haven't made any official SL Discord server (unless they did and I missed it), almost all video games will have them even before they release these days, and it would be a very easy way to connect people who plonk down in the newbie hub to the broader SL community. A Hell to moderate, perhaps - but I'm sure Quartz could handle it! It'll be just like the forums. Except live. And probably with more people in it. And all the gifs.

I think moderation is the main reason they won’t do it. They’d probably need a team of moderators in there 24/7 everyday nonstop. It would quickly become a troll infested hive of scum and villainy.

Seriously though….no that’s all I got. It would not turn out well. That gif is apt, that’s what it would be like for a normal person going in there.

[CaerolleClaudel]

4 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Some people slap their Discord ID in their profiles. Not an approach I'd want for myself as I'd rather get to know someone first, but, whatever floats people's boats. There's also some stores, events, and venues that have Discord servers which are linked to via in-world signs and group descriptions. Also if you search for 'Second Life' in the server directory you'll find a few (but far from all of them, not actually sure how to list your server into the directory or such as I've never done it myself).

   It is a little strange that LL haven't made any official SL Discord server (unless they did and I missed it), almost all video games will have them even before they release these days, and it would be a very easy way to connect people who plonk down in the newbie hub to the broader SL community. A Hell to moderate, perhaps - but I'm sure Quartz could handle it! It'll be just like the forums. Except live. And probably with more people in it. And all the gifs.

I would perhaps put a dedicated Discord ID in my profile, but not my main. As I mentioned in my long post (which made it easy to miss lol), I see getting IMs in SL as very different from exposing my Discord ID. My approach would be the same as yours, get to know someone first.

I have seen Discord servers posted in some places. IIRC I tried one or two as a direct link and it didn't work. I really did not try that hard, though, because I was just doing some exploration into how Discord was used in SL; I had no real idea that it was used so widely, and got curious about it. I also did a search in Discord for 'Second life'; see the picture for a screencap of one I just did. Only 14 hits, zero of interest to me. I have tried some search things outside Discord for some other interests with little success. IME, and this may be limited by my cluelessness and incompetence, but I have found Discord to be one of the worst online environments wrt discovery, and that include Mastodon. The servers I have found were through people already in the server, not through any search.

I am not particularly surprise SL does not have a Discord server, for a lot of reasons. Not the least that is a chat not a forum, so I would think is much harder to moderate, as the posts can come so fast and several conversations often overlap in the same channel. Plus, lately moderation seems to lag a lot (see: several now gone pages in this thread), so I would wonder if LL actually has the capacity to take on another social media task?

I would guess it probably would have a lot more people in, for sure. Which I would also guess would not suit most of the people on the Forum, so perhaps it would be a completely different group of people, both in terms of actual members and and the associated differences in interests and personalities. I doubt we will see find out though, as I doubt LL will ever do that. Even though that might be a way to actually reach those new residents they are trying to attract with the mobile app.

[SandorWren]

9 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Actually, it's more mocking the Futureness cultist's "industry standard help(tm)" that they keep trotting out, and then parroting their accusations against anyone who still doesn't love "PBR Futureness".

The only thing of theirs I left out was suggesting that Sandor might need to adjust the settings on his friends.

 

Edit: And suggesting that he could get slightly used modern industry standard friends that had been thrashed half to death by Crypto Miners, 2nd hand on EBay for very reasonable prices. 

I don't need to get anything on my end. I just built a high end tower from scratch with brand new components.

[Istelathis]

26 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Actually, it's more mocking the Futureness cultist's "industry standard help(tm)" that they keep trotting out, and then parroting their accusations against anyone who still doesn't love "PBR Futureness".

The only thing of theirs I left out was suggesting that Sandor might need to adjust the settings on his friends.

I haven't had internet friends in a long time, but when I did, we would usually follow one another to different games or platforms.  For real life friends, we would just follow each other on different games, the game itself was not the basis of the friendship, it was the people.  

If I wanted to make more friends, it would probably be the same way.  If they could no longer work with Second Life, I would probably find another virtual world to hang out with them, while maintaining contact through mastodon, telegram, discord, or emails.  I would probably still stick around in Second Life though, because I like it here, this place is pretty cool.

I do think, platforms like active worlds look pretty interesting, if I had a friend that no longer could run SL, I would probably hang with them there, or on OpenSim, or any other number of platforms.  Hopefully, eventually, the friend would get a computer that could support SL, or LL would make the changes necessary to update the platform so they could play.

If the whole of Second Life were to shutdown tomorrow, I would hope most of the friendships people have formed would endure.  If the friendship is based around Second Life, and Second Life only, then who really has the moral high standing one way or another - if we are turn this into an ethical dilemma.  

Edited August 13 by Istelathis

[CaerolleClaudel]

25 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

I keep telling Caitlin to ask for help. I even sent her Maddie's post about adjusting some settings. She's too afraid to muck around with more than basic things, in case she messes something up on her actual OS.. 

I missed whether she is using the LL viewer or the FS viewer? IIRC I have seen people suggest having a version of the LL viewer that is already set up for lower-capability hardware. OTOH, IIRC it does some kind of autodetect to adjust settings? Even if it does, I have no idea how good that is. I find it hard to imagine that LL would set up two different versions of their viewer, for multiple reasons.

OTOH, I wonder about a possibility with FS. For sure they are not likely to set up a separate version with lower graphics settings (and really, does even two sizes fits all cover everything?). However, we can save FS settings to file. Or files. I have done restores many times, but never looked at the details of what is saved.

Here is where I am heading: If the settings are saved in certain files, couldn't someone set up their FS the way they are suggesting the person having trouble sets up theirs, do a Save Settings, and then give those files to the person with the problems? The files would have to be put the right place, and I dunno, maybe renamed with the resident's name, but would that be a reasonable workaround? OTOH, I'm not sure that trying to explain how to find the right folder would be any easier than walking them through changing settings in the viewer... 🤷🏻‍♀️

[CaerolleClaudel]

22 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I think moderation is the main reason they won’t do it. They’d probably need a team of moderators in there 24/7 everyday nonstop. It would quickly become a troll infested hive of scum and villainy.

Seriously though….no that’s all I got. It would not turn out well. That gif is apt, that’s what it would be like for a normal person going in there.

I feel it would almost need several users as mods, in addition to the one or two Lindens who would be owners of the server. I also just cannot see it happening for a LOT of reasons. I could more see some user setting up their own server, which to me is in many ways better than having it under LL control anyhow. As you say, moderation would probably be a heavy lift if many people joined, but there are a lot of big servers on Discord where that is the case, not to mention subreddits.

[SandorWren]

1 hour ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I missed whether she is using the LL viewer or the FS viewer? IIRC I have seen people suggest having a version of the LL viewer that is already set up for lower-capability hardware. OTOH, IIRC it does some kind of autodetect to adjust settings? Even if it does, I have no idea how good that is. I find it hard to imagine that LL would set up two different versions of their viewer, for multiple reasons.

OTOH, I wonder about a possibility with FS. For sure they are not likely to set up a separate version with lower graphics settings (and really, does even two sizes fits all cover everything?). However, we can save FS settings to file. Or files. I have done restores many times, but never looked at the details of what is saved.

Here is where I am heading: If the settings are saved in certain files, couldn't someone set up their FS the way they are suggesting the person having trouble sets up theirs, do a Save Settings, and then give those files to the person with the problems? The files would have to be put the right place, and I dunno, maybe renamed with the resident's name, but would that be a reasonable workaround? OTOH, I'm not sure that trying to explain how to find the right folder would be any easier than walking them through changing settings in the viewer... 🤷🏻‍♀️

Caitlin would only use a viewer that has RLV. The issue would also be that it's about memory settings, if I remember Maddie's post correctly. I can't imagine that it would work loading PC FS settings onto a MAC. I can't imagine it working across multiple PC's either.  But from what I know so far, it IS possible to set up a Linux portable install that DOES save changes, and share that. I have been experimenting with that. I have it working on my PC. Linux doubles my framerate. But so far I can't get Gyazo working in Linux, which IS important.

[CaerolleClaudel]

2 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

Caitlin would only use a viewer that has RLV. The issue would also be that it's about memory settings, if I remember Maddie's post correctly. I can't imagine that it would work loading PC FS settings onto a MAC. I can't imagine it working across multiple PC's either.  But from what I know so far, it IS possible to set up a Linux portable install that DOES save changes, and share that. I have been experimenting with that. I have it working on my PC. Linux doubles my framerate. But so far I can't get Gyazo working in Linux, which IS important.

Oh, I forgot she is using a Mac, and that (IIRC) the Mac is a lot of the trouble. Yeah, no way that would work lol. Probably have to drop into a terminal to even find the files, if that was even possible.

Side note, FS has RLV, right? Though I do not have that engaged anymore, I used it for years and think it is still there? I may be missing something, though. Either way, MacOS is a solid barrier to sharing files.

[SandorWren]

I truly don't know anything about MAC's. I wish I did, so could be of more help to her. I'm so used to PC's that I wouldn't even want to guess, in case I told her something wrong, and mess up her system.

Yes, FS has RLV. She and I only turn it off to fix something if it gets broken. It's actually very annoying to log into a non-RLV enabled viewer, as RLV error messages keep scrolling from various items we are wearing (that we simply do NOT remove). Such as our collars.

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 minute ago, SandorWren said:

It's actually very annoying to log into a non-RLV enabled viewer, as RLV error messages keep scrolling from various items we are wearing (that we simply do NOT remove). Such as our collars.

I can relate. Even after I came back (briefly lol) this last time and was not going to do any BDSM stuff I still wore my collar and cuffs. I had a new install of FS and every time I logged in or changed outfits I got those stupid messages. I had no intention of playing anyhow so finally just removed the RLV stuff from all my outfits.

[AmeliaJ08]

Not sure if I have already mentioned this but there's a very specific couple of fixes to use the latest Firstorm on MacOS/Apple Silicon M series Macs detailed in this thread:

Specifically @Madelaine McMasters post:

Quote

My M1 Max MacBook Pro seems to be doing okay under PBR. I've (so far) made only two setting changes.

1) In Debug Settings (available from the Advanced Menu), I've set "RenderGLmultithreadedtextures" to “TRUE”.
2) In Preferences->Graphics->Hardware Settings, I've unchecked "Override VRAM detection" and dedicated half my Mac's total memory (32GB of 64GB) for VRAM.

Both of these changes come with warnings, either from the viewer itself, or people in the wider FS community. They've also been suggested by people in the Mac FS community.

Caveat emptor!

There's a minor error, 'unchecked' should be 'checked' as in you want to enable "Override VRAM detection"

 

Edited August 13 by AmeliaJ08

[SandorWren]

Just now, CaerolleClaudel said:

I can relate. Even after I came back (briefly lol) this last time and was not going to do any BDSM stuff I still wore my collar and cuffs. I had a new install of FS and every time I logged in or changed outfits I got those stupid messages. I had no intention of playing anyhow so finally just removed the RLV stuff from all my outfits.

I haven't run into that when I update my FS. But it's just a simple matter of checking a box to turn RLV on. You don't actually need to be involved in BDSM to find RLV useful.There are clothing organizers that use it. Also, I personally hate having to accept a TP, when I am already willing to go, when SIM hopping.

[WeFlossDaily]

/me makes an awkward apology to any innocent bystanders I may have splattered while slinging mud everywhere the other day and quietly slips out the back.

> close door

/me closes the door.

> go north

/me heads north into a future of my own choosing. =]

[CaerolleClaudel]

Just now, SandorWren said:

I haven't run into that when I update my FS. But it's just a simple matter of checking a box to turn RLV on. You don't actually need to be involved in BDSM to find RLV useful.There are clothing organizers that use it. Also, I personally hate having to accept a TP, when I am already willing to go, when SIM hopping.

I didn't just update, I did a full clean install; every time I leave SL I delete every viewer file I can find off my computer.

Yes, I have seen in the Forum that people have uses for RLV other than BDSM. I just mentioned BDSM because that is all I ever used it for, sorry; I was not trying to imply anything about anyone else's use of it.

[SandorWren]

9 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I didn't just update, I did a full clean install; every time I leave SL I delete every viewer file I can find off my computer.

Yes, I have seen in the Forum that people have uses for RLV other than BDSM. I just mentioned BDSM because that is all I ever used it for, sorry; I was not trying to imply anything about anyone else's use of it.

You didn't insult me at all. BDSM is why I have it!!! I just found other uses for it too!!!  I never DID get the organizer working. I got it years ago, and didn't know at the time how to do an RLV folder setup. Then I forgot about it. But since folder preview images exist, i won't bother. That works fine for me!!!

Edited August 13 by SandorWren

[SandorWren]

11 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

/me makes an awkward apology to any innocent bystanders I may have splattered while slinging mud everywhere the other day and quietly slips out the back.

> close door

/me closes the door.

> go north

/me heads north into a future of my own choosing. =]

You weren't the only one slinging mud, and we DID get scolded by the teacher for it!!! And rightfully so!!!

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

I want to use text viewers, but they are so ugly.

I think LL should make a text viewer with PBR fonts, to pretty them up a little bit.

[belindacarson]

29 minutes ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said:

I want to use text viewers, but they are so ugly.

I think LL should make a text viewer with PBR fonts, to pretty them up a little bit.

Not all of them bubble.   Lumiya is lovely and easy to use for text chat.  I don't use others so I can't comment on them.