How text-only viewers might be able to save us some of us from PBR

[NaomiLocket]

1 hour ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I've posted this before. There's no reason to panic.

https://www.blender.org/download/previous-versions/

 

That will only be useful in the future if SL itself retains collada also. There is no panic, it's just an education. However, because of the vulnerabilities with the old builds of collada in blender the only previous-versions that will be useful for anything that retains it will be blender versions that marked it as legacy such as the current 4.2.

[BriannaLovey]

3 hours ago, Robin Kiyori said:

I'm  not a creator, not smart or techy either. My desktop pc isn't the most super duper, l33t gamerz rig. It's a cheap mid, prebuilt. PBR works fine and makes my beep boop robot avatar look beepier and boopier. While poor ol laptop suffered a bit.Both the same price but years and store difference between them.

I still don't understand why this is all such a big deal and why there has to be so much mudslinging and insults tossed around. I can get saying it's buggy or not liking it. But there's just..no need for even  quarter of the bile being tossed around at all sides.

Text-based communication often does this to people, regardless of the topic. Just look at the last 20 years. You either learn to keep your cool or at least block people you know will upset you, or you remain a perpetual emotional wreck as a result.

Edited August 13 by BriannaLovey

[BriannaLovey]

2 hours ago, NaomiLocket said:

That will only be useful in the future if SL itself retains collada also. There is no panic, it's just an education. However, because of the vulnerabilities with the old builds of collada in blender the only previous-versions that will be useful for anything that retains it will be blender versions that marked it as legacy such as the current 4.2.

If this isn't an argument for use of memory-safe programming languages like Rust, I don't know what is (yes, not all vulnerabilities arise from memory safety issues, but many of them do.)

[Quartz Mole]

Please, folks, try to keep things civil and on topic.

I've just had to remove far too many posts where people who should know better  are bickering and flaming at each other.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Robin Kiyori said:

I'm  not a creator, not smart or techy either. My desktop pc isn't the most super duper, l33t gamerz rig. It's a cheap mid, prebuilt. PBR works fine and makes my beep boop robot avatar look beepier and boopier. While poor ol laptop suffered a bit.Both the same price but years and store difference between them.

I still don't understand why this is all such a big deal and why there has to be so much mudslinging and insults tossed around. I can get saying it's buggy or not liking it. But there's just..no need for even  quarter of the bile being tossed around at all sides.

I agree that tempers get rather unnecessarily frayed around this subject (including my own on occasion), but it's not hard to understand, I think, why something that has really pretty fundamentally changed the experience of SL for many people might do that.

There are lots of causes, some reasonable and some less so, for why people are annoyed. Most people didn't know this was coming; it took them off guard. Some who have been managing in SL on very definitely subpar computers have suddenly found that SL is all but unusable. Others, who may have been told that PBR would make SL look better, discovered that it didn't, and maybe even made it look worse. There's actually no central place to find information about fixes, other than the Firestorm wiki and support group. Etc.

Most of this will get better, as PBR-optimized EEPs become more common, and more in use. Some will simply get used to washed-out lighting, or too-dark interiors. And some will get better computers.

The performance issue is a tough one. It's got better than it was initially: the first PBR viewer from LL was not good, but they've since improved it. The current FS PBR viewer is also not good, in terms of performance; I am reasonably confident that too will get fixed.

But for some, on very old or inadequate computers, it's not going to get better. It's perfectly valid and objectively true that one can't expect to continue to function on a platform that is evolving with a computer that is ancient or not up to snuff -- but point that out to people who may be faced with losing what has been an important part of their lives doesn't actually remedy anything. For many the natural and understandable reaction is going to be anguish or anger. Implying that it's somehow their fault that they haven't got a newer or more powerful computer, when we can know nothing about their personal circumstances, is only going to aggravate that.

On the other hand, there certainly are people who are excited about PBR, and about the potential it holds for future developments down the road. They care about the platform too, and believe -- probably correctly -- that modernizing and updating is the key to the continued survival of SL.

tl/dr: the voices are loud and vehement because the personal stakes are high for both "sides."

The Pro-PBR people are going to win this -- have indeed already won this. We're not going back.

It seems to me that it would be good for them (and actually, in some regards, I'm one of them) to be gracious in victory, and to try to understand the very real upset and anger that the "losers" here are expressing. They may be a very small minority, but that hardly makes the anguish of those who find SL barely usable anymore any less real.

[Sid Nagy]

20 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

REAL Second Life players login to SL via a plugin on Microsoft Word.

Those are amateurs. I exclusively use gmail.

 

[AmeliaJ08]

7 hours ago, Robin Kiyori said:

I'm  not a creator, not smart or techy either. My desktop pc isn't the most super duper, l33t gamerz rig. It's a cheap mid, prebuilt. PBR works fine and makes my beep boop robot avatar look beepier and boopier. While poor ol laptop suffered a bit.Both the same price but years and store difference between them.

I still don't understand why this is all such a big deal and why there has to be so much mudslinging and insults tossed around. I can get saying it's buggy or not liking it. But there's just..no need for even  quarter of the bile being tossed around at all sides.

This forum is known for its hyperbole. You'll be called a cultist for not agreeing.

Just like LaraX was supposed to kill the SL clothes market...

Edited August 13 by AmeliaJ08

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Those are amateurs. I exclusively use gmail.

 

Peeve: If you were from the US, I would expect you to promote AOL, like me!

[Midnoot]

10 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

This forum is known for its hyperbole. You'll be called a cultist for not agreeing.

Just like LaraX was supposed to kill the SL clothes market...

Lara x saved maitreya from becoming the boomer body . For a few years maybe . Not to rag on boomers.

It IS a great example though . The same crowd that are loyal to the death to maitreya are probably the same anti pbr, anti alm,  anti mesh crowd .

Edited August 13 by Midnoot

[Love Zhaoying]

Maybe there is a sales opportunity for text-only viewers: "ASCII Art"! (The "graphics" equivalent to building with Prims, some would say! 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, NaomiLocket said:

That will only be useful in the future if SL itself retains collada also. There is no panic, it's just an education. However, because of the vulnerabilities with the old builds of collada in blender the only previous-versions that will be useful for anything that retains it will be blender versions that marked it as legacy such as the current 4.2.

Idea: LL should charge more for COLLADA uploads!

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 minutes ago, Midnoot said:

Lara x saved maitreya from becoming the boomer body . For a few years maybe . Not to rag on boomers.

It IS a great example though . The same crowd that are loyal to the death to maitreya are probably the same anti pbr, anti alm,  anti mesh crowd .

not loyal to the death, just not seeing the need to replace something just for the sake of replacing it.

It looked great when I got it, it still looks great now.

As for mesh, mesh is the best thing that ever happened to SL.

I can’t say the same for ALM or PBR though. 😂

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Midnoot said:

Lara x saved maitreya from becoming the boomer body . For a few years maybe . Not to rag on boomers.

It IS a great example though . The same crowd that are loyal to the death to maitreya are probably the same anti pbr, anti alm,  anti mesh crowd .

Hey I'm still using 5.3 Petite! not moving on yet despite barely anything new to buy for it now. I'm not sure what makes LaraX non-boomer though, as far as I can tell she just has a butt that is harder to tame.

Edited August 13 by AmeliaJ08

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

9 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I'm not sure what makes LaraX non-boomer though

Marketing!

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe there is a sales opportunity for text-only viewers: "ASCII Art"! (The "graphics" equivalent to building with Prims, some would say! 

Let's all use Discord and done.
Saves a lot of L$ too.

Edited August 13 by Sid Nagy

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I can’t say the same for ALM or PBR though.

Materials!

You needs them.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The Pro-PBR people are going to win this -- have indeed already won this. We're not going back.

They've won the battle but not necessarily the war. That remains to be seen when the final non-pbr FS release starts being blocked. There are plenty of other grids in the FS grid manager who won't be blocking/insisting on PBR viewers only. It is then no problem using a lightweight text viewer to log in to SL and listen in on various inworld groups and contacts while using a non PBR viewer in another grid for the visuals.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But for some, on very old or inadequate computers, it's not going to get better. It's perfectly valid and objectively true that one can't expect to continue to function on a platform that is evolving with a computer that is ancient or not up to snuff -- but point that out to people who may be faced with losing what has been an important part of their lives doesn't actually remedy anything. For many the natural and understandable reaction is going to be anguish or anger. Implying that it's somehow their fault that they haven't got a newer or more powerful computer, when we can know nothing about their personal circumstances, is only going to aggravate that.

Sadly there are always going to be a few who are insensitive to those who have less and will take any opportunity to "flex" and brag about how they have better or more (and I doubt most of them give a damn about PBR or any other feature beyond it giving them an opportunity to flaunt their "superiority").

That being said I suspect that the tireless efforts of a few to convince everyone that PBR is the work of some shady cabal of LL developers and merchants designed to eradicate a portion of the user base while at the same time lining their own pockets hasn't exactly done anything to help placate the anguish or anger felt by those experiencing problems with PBR either.

tl/dr: This entire debacle has been over-dramatized to farcical proportions.

[Sid Nagy]

Progress is a continuing thing. It can't be stopped.
Choices have to be made. On both sides. LL has to try to stay in business, consumers will try to get the most out of their dollar.

As a creator I have choices to make too. Is it worth to learn the ropes for the new texture requirements or do I call it a day and fold my business cards? Something that needs a lot of thinking from my side, but it has no use to try to convince LL to stop with PBR and role back the clock.

The stagecoach, the steam train, the velocipede, they all evolved in newer forms of transportation.
SL evolves in a newer platform. We will have to invest, be it in learning or buying hardware upgrades or even both or call it a day. All are individual choices.  Most will adapt somehow.
 

Edited August 13 by Sid Nagy

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 hours ago, Midnoot said:

The same crowd that are loyal to the death to maitreya are probably the same anti pbr, anti alm,  anti mesh crowd .

Nah, not really. As a pretty heavy gamer, I'm neutral on PBR (it's such old news in the industry, I can't bring myself to care about it, but I'm glad SL is finally joining the modern era) and I've been on ALM and mesh since I came back to SL. However, I'm on Lara 5.3 and likely won't change because it's the only body out there I can make a rather convincing partial skeleton with - both in body shape and in mod availability (my skelly parts were never updated for anything newer and so few creators make horror body mods, it takes time for something new to come out, if it ever does).

Sometimes it goes a bit further than just "people like old stuff." Consider that some people like unusual stuff, and for whatever reason, Maitreya has always had a good hold on the fantasy and horror markets, with Legacy a close second. I've got a ton of inventory that I can't replace that doesn't even work with Lara X. Not talking about some basic jeans here - mermaid tails and limbs and rigged torsos and a crab attachment and other random parts. Doesn't make too much sense to swap to an entirely new body that favors shapes I don't particularly need or want that can't fit into any of that stuff (I build skinny or athletic creatures and monsters, usually). I'm sure I'm not the only one in that position.

More generally, most people I find who don't like PBR have pretty good reasons for it. Usually it's hardware related, but sometimes a person just doesn't care whatsoever about the things most games handle in the backend. I've known people who didn't even know you could change lighting/EEPs. Someone like that logs in and finds everything looks different or runs slower and now they've got to troubleshoot and learn about something they just don't give a rats about. I feel for them, honestly. I'm pretty much the same way. If not for photography, I'd never bother with EEP and tweaking my graphics either. I'm certainly never making probes and setting up manual lighting. I'm not THAT into taking photos. 😄

[gwynchisholm]

Oh look it’s yet another thread where someone is complaining about PBR making the game unplayable for them. How exciting.

I’m positive these people complain about literally everything in their lives with zero contemplation on the matter first. No thoughts, only whine.

[Arielle Popstar]

24 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Progress is a continuing thing. It can't be stopped.
Choices have to be made. On both sides. LL has to try to stay in business, consumers will try to get the most out of their dollar.

PBR from what I see is not about LL staying in business. There are a slew of upgrades they could have done that would have been more beneficial in flattening the learning curve and resulted in a significant uptick in retention rate for new people and the slowing of the attrition rates of oldbies. 

PBR will only increase the minimum hardware requirements thereby reducing the available population who may benefit from PBR.

[gwynchisholm]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

PBR will only increase the minimum hardware requirements thereby reducing the available population who may benefit from PBR.

The amount of people this impacts by raising minimum hardware requirements at this point is like, maybe 3 or 4 people?

This game runs on anything, it runs poorly on anything but it does run on anything. 
The systems that would still be somewhat capable of playing SL before PBR but not now are easily 10-15 year old low end hardware. Like pre skylake laptop igpu. Stuff that was having problems just being remotely compatible with windows 10, let alone trying to play games. And I don’t think the amount of people still running systems like that regularly are any notable population.

I play this game on an N100, a modern embedded low power processor, 8gb of ram and a 750ti, a midrange GPU from 2015. I don’t think PBR impacted my average performance at all, or at least not in any meaningful way. Anyone running a vaguely modern system, and by that I mean something from at least the last decade, shouldn’t have seen any change at all unless they’re cranking settings to the max, which will kneecap any hardware.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, gwynchisholm said:

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

PBR will only increase the minimum hardware requirements thereby reducing the available population who may benefit from PBR.

The amount of people this impacts by raising minimum hardware requirements at this point is like, maybe 3 or 4 people?

This game runs on anything, it runs poorly on anything but it does run on anything. 

Thank you! It's nice to see some logic used.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thank you! It's nice to see some logic used.

Too bad it's not accurate. At least not according to people in-world who are being affected.

Too early to know exact numbers. So many have gone back to old versions of Firestorm that it'll take months or longer to see where things really stand once PBR becomes mandatory.