Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 (edited) Arguing about the percentages of people who don't like, don't want to use, or can't use a PBR viewer is pointless: none of us know. It is pretty clearly not a majority. Equally, though, it is pretty clearly a substantial minority -- so much so that for the first time that I know of, Firestorm is going to violate their own "three version" rule, and keep an older version available. What's more, unusually, LL appears to be on board with this -- there's no way FS would make this move unilaterally. That all suggests that there is concern about the impact this is having, and might have in future -- on the widespread use of Firestorm, and maybe on concurrency as well. The thing is, this decision makes this all rather academic now. The problem has been "solved," in some manner or another. Brianna doesn't even need to keep working on her forked version of FS. Those unable or unwilling to keep up will be able to stick with a pre-PBR version of SL, for which they will increasingly pay a price in terms of their experience of the platform as time moves on. But they'll have time to upgrade. Equally, the pace of the adoption of PBR may, perhaps, be slowed a little, but it's still going to happen. Like all compromises, this isn't going to make everyone happy, and there are associated costs. But on the whole, it seems to me that we're in a reasonably good place now, and maybe, just maybe, can talk about something else for a while? Edited August 16 by Scylla Rhiadra 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: maybe, can talk about something else for a while? Traditionally the best drama is the stuff Linden lab initiates, so we'll have to wait for what they have up their sleeve now! 😲 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Arguing about the percentages of people who don't like, don't want to use, or can't use a PBR viewer is pointless: none of us know. It is pretty clearly not a majority. Equally, though, it is pretty clearly a substantial minority -- so much so that for the first time that I know of, Firestorm is going to violate their own "three version" rule, and keep an older version available. It's a major inflection point. It's pretty common that the "last viewer that does some such" is kept around after it's regular sell-by date. It happened with Viewer 1.23 on the Linden lab side, and the pre-mesh Phoenix was kept available after both the Phoenix mesh viewer and that new, scary, possibly Communistic mesh viewer by the same maker (*cough*Firestorm*cough*) were released. Linden Lab even kept up some of the last builds that would run on old versions of Windows as "Obsolete Operating System" viewers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeFlossDaily Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 There's no good reason to keep trying to scrap viewers that work for those of us who for whatever reason don't like or don't want to use PBR. The continual attempts to justify cutting out those of us on low-end machines only serves to make us feel increasingly as though somebody is trying to take something from us. This is the way I feel about it now, speaking as a person on a low-end machine: A group of ppl wants to take something from me and view me as less important then they are and view me as an obstacle that must be removed and destroyed. There is little left to discuss or debate. It is us verses them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 *twerks on the way out* 4 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Traditionally the best drama is the stuff Linden lab initiates, so we'll have to wait for what they have up their sleeve now! 😲 Integrated AI model generation, $250L per finished product. (I don't doubt this will be a thing, in another five years once mesh generation is better) Premium Plus Plus, 4096 property 1200L a month, free mesh upload, mesh generation $100L per finished product. NPC services, complete with LLM The possibilities are limitless! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: It is pretty clearly not a majority. Equally, though, it is pretty clearly a substantial minority -- so much so that for the first time that I know of, Firestorm is going to violate their own "three version" rule, and keep an older version available. We don't know that either, though. We have absolutely no idea how large a portion of those 43% aren't using PBR because of performance issues, not wanting to, or just not knowing. Time will tell, I suspect in the coming weeks there'll be frequent questions of 'why is stuff grey?!' coming from people who haven't even heard of PBR yet. LL making announcements on this website or via their social media reaches a rather small portion of the userbase, it seems. If anything, FS deciding to keep a pre-PBR release is just going to make it 'lag' when people don't update as their current viewer doesn't 'stop working', they'll only see a deterioration of their in-world experience and features breaking down until they happen to ask someone who knows what it's about. So, how large a portion of that portion that don't use PBR are just going to experience a whole lot of pointless frustration in their blissless ignorance of the platform scooting away from their viewer's capabilities? We don't know! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 3 minutes ago, Orwar said: We don't know that either, though. We have absolutely no idea how large a portion of those 43% aren't using PBR because of performance issues, not wanting to, or just not knowing. I think it is something like 72% use Firestorm, according to an old poll. If that is correct, then I would have to remember mah statistics to come out with a rudimentary number of people currently using PBR, which would probably somewhere in the 60-70% margin. Then we would have to take into consideration, those who just can't run PBR at all. I think we have a pretty good number to work with, if I were to hazard a very sloppy guess, I would say well over 80% of the userbase can run PBR with their current computer. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 14 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said: *twerks on the way out* Inara for the win. This just appeared in my email in-box: thank you Janet! This actually confirms a lot of things that have been suggested -- most notably the fact that the current FS PBR release is not functioning as it should be. (Whether because it was "rushed" or not, who knows?) This is all good news so far as I'm concerned, in the sense that they (LL and the FS team) have recognized and acknowledged the problems that have cropped up, and have made fixing them a priority. Hopefully, the promised performance enhancements for FS and the LL viewer will make this conversation somewhat moot, by making PBR accessible to a larger group of those currently struggling with it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 5 minutes ago, Istelathis said: I think it is something like 72% use Firestorm, according to an old poll. If that is correct, then I would have to remember mah statistics to come out with a rudimentary number of people currently using PBR, which would probably somewhere in the 60-70% margin. Then we would have to take into consideration, those who just can't run PBR at all. I think we have a pretty good number to work with, if I were to hazard a very sloppy guess, I would say well over 80% of the userbase can run PBR with their current computer. A little potential fly in your math ointment though is that one time the developer for Speedlight @Glaznah Gassner posted that over 50% logged in where on some sort of mobile viewer. This was mentioned before the SL beta mobile was released. I'd link the post if I could find it which unfortunately I can't but would be interesting if Glaznah could confirm that post since 70% of half the existing concurrency would give us more realistic numbers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 16 minutes ago, Orwar said: We don't know that either, though. This rather depends, I suppose, on how one defines "substantial." All I meant by it -- whether it's 5% or 30% -- is that it's large enough (sufficiently "substantial") to trigger a response from FS and LL. And that much seems to be confirmed by Inara's notes. And I agree that communication is a major problem. There undoubtedly are people having difficulties with PBR who aren't aware that there ARE some fixes, and others not using a PBR viewer who don't know why they should. LL's inability to get the word out, and to produce simple, coherent, but also reasonably comprehensive communications on this has been one of my complaints since the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discussionbot Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 23 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said: Finally, some sense. I got tired of the long threads being dismissive of users on mid to low end systems. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeFlossDaily Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Let's just make up statistics to justify our viewpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 I bet that after LL helps fix the Firestorm bugs, that Firestorm runs almost as well as the official viewer! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Are we really ignoring the fact that LL has to step in to help fix a third party viewer? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I do so love conversations in which we talk about the "types of people" we think are "desirable" for SL. Why? Because they're more like you, perhaps? How about the "types of people" that don't understand computers and refuse to learn how to upgrade one and want to use SL? You think it's better to let them pick the one that has the lowest price tag or best marketing gimmick so that they can come to the forums and claim that SL is going to shut down in two years because LL keeps upgrading? Maybe you like these threads where people get to tell them they bought the wrong computer? Because they were told SL isn't a game and doesn't need gaming hardware? Explain to me the motivation you and @BriannaLovey have for being against warning people that SL requires certain hardware. Edited August 16 by Paul Hexem 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Just now, Janet Voxel said: Are we really ignoring the fact that LL has to step in to help fix a third party viewer? Not me..what's your take on it? I have my own biased opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I bet that after LL helps fix the Firestorm bugs, that Firestorm runs almost as well as the official viewer! It seems that Firestorm is likely running older PBR code, I've noticed this in other viewers as well. Even when LL updates their viewer, to accommodate lower end computers it is going to lag with TPVs I imagine, until they are all updated. If I were on an older or slower computer, I would probably just stick with LL's viewer, CoolVL, Alchemy, or an older viewer until it all gets sorted out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Just now, Paul Hexem said: How about the "types of people" that don't understand computers and refuse to learn how to upgrade one and want to use SL? In many cases, those same people either fail to ask for advice, fail to heed advice, and somehow think they know more than they really do. Normal people who "mean well", but just don't know what they don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: Explain to me the motivation you and @BriannaLovey have for being against warning people that SL requires certain hardware? I'm not. On the contrary, I think LL's documentation is terrible, out of date, and should be written for a change by someone who knows how to write for a general audience. And that certainly includes the section on specs. I'm against the suggestion that the people that the only people SL wants and needs are those who own gaming computers. If that ever happens, concurrency will absolutely tank. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 2 minutes ago, Istelathis said: It seems that Firestorm is likely running older PBR code, I've noticed this in other viewers as well. Even when LL updates their viewer, to accommodate lower end computers it is going to lag with TPVs I imagine, until they are all updated. If I were on an older or slower computer, I would probably just stick with LL's viewer, CoolVL, Alchemy, or an older viewer until it all gets sorted out. I keep meaning to try Firestorm to see how awful it is compared to the official viewer, but somehow I'm sure no matter what I find - nobody will want to hear it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeFlossDaily Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: the section on specs. https://secondlife.com/system-requirements LL is hilariously incompetent, because even I'm laughing at the minimum requirements. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: Not me..what's your take on it? I have my own biased opinion. I know, I started to write something else, but posted that instead. I’m keeping my mouth shut 🤫 I really don’t have the time or energy to go back and forth with people… or even the desire. I suggested trying a different viewer weeks ago. I’ll just leave it at that. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: In many cases, those same people either fail to ask for advice, fail to heed advice, and somehow think they know more than they really do. Normal people who "mean well", but just don't know what they don't know. Sure, but here we have people reacting to me, all upset that I dare suggest that you should bring a gaming PC to play PC games. Like I'm the bad guy for suggesting people should come prepared so that they're not miserable and starting 30 page long sensationalist threads. Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: I'm against the suggestion that the people that the only people SL wants and needs are those who own gaming computers. Did I say that? Point it out, please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted August 16 Share Posted August 16 1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said: Did I say that? Point it out, please. You just said it again, in the very same post that asked this: 1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said: I dare suggest that you should bring a gaming PC to play PC games. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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