Is Lindenlab choosing a doomed path for SL ? Tell us if the EEP and PBR introduction changed the way you play SL

[Cristiano Midnight]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

You mean being built in that it is in long term alpha mode. which as far as we know, is only so far on apple devices. For all we know they are having issues supporting PBR in the mobile viewer.

I have zero interest in the mobile viewer, but it is at least using an industry standard engine. That said, I don't know how much work is involved in getting it all to work with SL's content. It is not only on Apple devices, it supports Android as well.

[Toothless Draegonne]

13 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I have enough clothes for ten second lives, I don’t buy much of anything any more.

Since Second Life is really the only game in town, and by far the most popular, what are these other platforms creators are selling to that they have to complain about doing it different for SL customers?

VR Chat?

Resonite?

Assorted asset websites?

Literally every other paying job as an asset creator across the entire videogame industry?

But hey let's just pin everything on some obscure 3D chat room from 20 years ago that when it even gets a mention, is usually in the context of "huh, Sadville still exists."

[BriannaLovey]

6 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

VR Chat?

Resonite?

Assorted asset websites?

Literally every other paying job as an asset creator across the entire videogame industry?

But hey let's just pin everything on some obscure 3D chat room from 20 years ago that when it even gets a mention, is usually in the context of "huh, Sadville still exists."

 

majority of end users don't care. Creators must not forget who they serve.

Edited Wednesday at 05:53 PM by BriannaLovey

[Theresa Tennyson]

24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You mean being built in that it is in long term alpha mode. which as far as we know, is only so far on apple devices. For all we know they are having issues supporting PBR in the mobile viewer.

Perhaps we do not know as far as we think we do...

https://www.secondlife.com/mobile

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Wow. I finally decided to drag myself over to a location with a lot of PBR and EEP choice makes such a massive difference. To answer the original question - if PBR and EEP will change the way I use SL? Yeah, likely will. I might wind up using shared environments more often.

@Scylla Rhiadra, I gave the Nuve - Shadowless WL PBR ready EEP a try (it's free on the MP), and it's great for general purpose dressing/shaping/decorating use, but when I teleported to Belleza, I figured I should try their own Shared EEP because I just wasn't seeing much and I couldn't even tell where the PBR stuff was, lol. Switched over and WOW. There's a huge difference in reflections and shine. I normally never worry about such things and don't care if things are a bit over-bright, but we're talking really different here.

Here's their sign in the Nuve EEP:

 

In their Shared Environment:

 

The front window in Nuve:

 

In Shared:

 

It's nice! I'm going to be changing EEPs a lot more often, it seems.

[Toothless Draegonne]

9 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

 

majority of end users don't care. Creators must not forget who they serve.

Quite. The majority of end users don't care. They want something that just works. And by following standards that the entire industry works with, it becomes far easier to make content that just works, everywhere.

Edited Wednesday at 06:02 PM by Toothless Draegonne
spllelling

[Arielle Popstar]

24 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

I have zero interest in the mobile viewer, but it is at least using an industry standard engine. That said, I don't know how much work is involved in getting it all to work with SL's content. It is not only on Apple devices, it supports Android as well.

You've had confirmation that there is at present an android version? I've not hear anyone mention that they are at testing that. It's planned but the likelihood it will be 2027 or later before it is finished is fairly high.

[Irina Forwzy]

19 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

VR Chat?

Resonite?

Assorted asset websites?

Literally every other paying job as an asset creator across the entire videogame industry?

But hey let's just pin everything on some obscure 3D chat room from 20 years ago that when it even gets a mention, is usually in the context of "huh, Sadville still exists."

You realize the reason people usually make fun of SL isn't due to the graphics but rather due to what it supposedly means.  And the RL issues that have stemmed from it, such as someone having an emotional affair rather than staying married. Etc.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

In their Shared Environment:

 

I saw this, and my first thought was "the dress":

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Perhaps we do not know as far as we think we do...

https://www.secondlife.com/mobile

That's good though can't sign in with it so it is useless. Love to hear if the android version is any good and further ahead then the IOS version.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I saw this, and my first thought was "the dress":

Lol. Poor Belleza. Definitely gold and pink in their case.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

14 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Creators must not forget who they serve.

Are you sure you don't have that the wrong way round?

People go out to work to earn money and then use that money to purchase L$ in order to buy things from creators who, in contrast, don't go out and work to earn money because people give them their hard earned money just for making things.

So, who's serving who in that scenario?  

[Cristiano Midnight]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You've had confirmation that there is at present an android version? I've not hear anyone mention that they are at testing that. It's planned but the likelihood it will be 2027 or later before it is finished is fairly high.

It took all of 2 seconds to look at the mobile page.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lindenlab.secondlife

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Are you sure you don't have that the wrong way round?

People go out to work to earn money and then use that money to purchase L$ in order to buy things from creators who, in contrast, don't go out and work to earn money because people give them their hard earned money just for making things.

So, who's serving who in that scenario?  

If creators served me, there would be a lot more clothing items I'd be buying.  

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Are you sure you don't have that the wrong way round?

People go out to work to earn money and then use that money to purchase L$ in order to buy things from creators who, in contrast, don't go out and work to earn money because people give them their hard earned money just for making things.

So, who's serving who in that scenario?  

My point is that if a creator creates PBR-only items and most people don't buy them, then the creator has nobody but themselves to blame.

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Wow. I finally decided to drag myself over to a location with a lot of PBR and EEP choice makes such a massive difference. To answer the original question - if PBR and EEP will change the way I use SL? Yeah, likely will. I might wind up using shared environments more often.

It's nice! I'm going to be changing EEPs a lot more often, it seems.

That is what I thought to myself initially at first too but the novelty started to wear off fairly quickly. Really makes me wonder how much lasting power it will have for the majority.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

It took all of 2 seconds to look at the mobile page.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lindenlab.secondlife

It seems it has only been up since 

Updated on

Jun 17, 2024

And the Lab hasn't announced it anywhere I have been. One can download it but not use unless one is Premium +. Have you tried it?

[Porky Gorky]

1 hour ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

PBR is not excess shiny crap. It's how everything else does it. You want those shops to continue having things for you to buy, you'll need to support PBR sooner or later, because the people that make stuff to put in those shops have been getting increasingly fed up of having to be special just for SL versus making something once and using it literally everywhere else. Many of them left years ago, or did you not notice things getting a little thin on the ground lately?

PBR texture artists will still need to take additional steps to get their PBR to look correct when rendered in SL because not a single EEP I have tested to date is physically accurate. So PBR needs to be customized for the artist’s chosen SL EEP in order for it to look the same as it would on other platforms that actually use physically accurate shaders.

[Toothless Draegonne]

Just now, BriannaLovey said:

My point is that if a creator creates PBR-only items and most people don't buy them, then the creator has nobody but themselves to blame.

Most creators of 3D content, by a vast and almost unanimous majority, create content for PBR rendering. You just don't get to enjoy it because you've been stuck on a platform that doesn't support it.

Roll on proper scene graphs, custom skeletons, blendshapes and IK chains so we can finally just bloody well import something and have it work, instead of waiting around and hoping that someone will do the not-small amount of work to finagle something into the obscure and weird Bento skeleton, with all its myriad problems.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That is what I thought to myself initially at first too but the novelty started to wear off fairly quickly. Really makes me wonder how much lasting power it will have for the majority.

That's a good point. Firestorm is my functional-only viewer, so you're right - it's very possible I'll get bored swapping EEPs all the time. Especially since I'm not running shadows and I'm not on Ultra, so things aren't going to look THAT fantastic. Still, PBR does make things look very pretty. If anyone's testing stuff out, the Belleza sim is a nice one to play around with. It's got water, windows, metals, marble/stone, etc.

BD is my eye-candy viewer, though, but I rarely ever leave the photo studio with it. Soooo, yeah, good point!

[Codex Alpha]

6 hours ago, Omegaslayer said:

that would be a nice thought, i do think they need to be more sensitive especially in current times, we can't all go out and get new computers that can cope with pbr.

Or really, computers that can cope with PBR - in Second Life. The same current rigs will probably be able to handle PBR from other platforms no problem. The issue is not PBR, its PBR and how SL presents it.

 

1 hour ago, BriannaLovey said:

I would give you money for all your work if I had it. The fact that LL hasn't offered you a job says a lot about them.

LL tends to hire those who 'fit into their work culture' or from friend groups, rather than competence (IME)

1 hour ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

PBR is not excess shiny crap. It's how everything else does it. You want those shops to continue having things for you to buy, you'll need to support PBR sooner or later, because the people that make stuff to put in those shops have been getting increasingly fed up of having to be special just for SL versus making something once and using it literally everywhere else. Many of them left years ago, or did you not notice things getting a little thin on the ground lately?

Yet, the PBR pipeline for SL varies from other platforms, as they recommend working in ACES, and with a specific workflow that requires changes to one's pipeline, not only from how Blender or Maya is set up, but the project in Substance Painter being also specific. And even with an outdated ACES 1.03... I haven't heard much about this.. but by my experiments I didn't like working in one color mode that just looks different in another, then having to make THAT software ACES...

big changes JUST FOR SL, and certainly not easy for the average or experienced texturer/creator, unless they want to FULLY EMBRACE this pipeline.

At least before their version of PBR and required colorspace, all I had to do was convert from PBR to SPC, and I got it to look the same under ALM. Now just using 1:1 PBR doesn't look the same in SL as it does on EVERY OTHER PLATFORM AND ENGINE.

This is usual for SL though... always having to do specific things for, or workarounds for... but is it worth it anymore with bigger markets and platforms opening up daily...

49 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Since Second Life is really the only game in town, and by far the most popular, what are these other platforms creators are selling to that they have to complain about doing it different for SL customers?

No, it's not the only game in town, as many other platforms are opening up to markets, from Roblox to Fortnite, or simply making and selling assets on individual 3d asset marketplaces from Unity, Unreal to CG Trader and Turbosquid - and arguably with far more customers.
Some SL creators have left already, to even create and sell on Roblox (for example) with exposure to millions and millions of users.

25 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

majority of end users don't care. Creators must not forget who they serve.

An odd way to put it.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

My point is that if a creator creates PBR-only items and most people don't buy them, then the creator has nobody but themselves to blame.

That's fair, I've always been in favour of people voting with their L$, and it's not like creating items that work with pre-PBR viewers is a lot of work.  I suspect once residents start to see more well-made PBR content it will become quite popular, if not LL are going to be in trouble because it sounds like the new rendering system is at the heart of a lot of their future plans for SL.

[Codex Alpha]

10 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Are you sure you don't have that the wrong way round?

People go out to work to earn money and then use that money to purchase L$ in order to buy things from creators who, in contrast, don't go out and work to earn money because people give them their hard earned money just for making things.

So, who's serving who in that scenario?  

Here let me serve you for 10 minutes to figure out you didnt have ALM on... for the 40 cent purchase you made...

7 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

My point is that if a creator creates PBR-only items and most people don't buy them, then the creator has nobody but themselves to blame.

Huh, so what are we doing here? Making the classic SPC or adopting PBR? It's not my fault! It's LL or any other platform that can't make up their mind!

[Toothless Draegonne]

5 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Yet, the PBR pipeline for SL varies from other platforms, as they recommend working in ACES,

Amusingly, there was much experimenting with tonemapping since early on in the pre-beta days. I was there in certain discords watching it happen. The result was different, but not bad. Life was good. Things actually kind of "popped" a little more than before, if anything.

And then the screaming started. Oh how it started and wouldn't stop. And so we ended up with the current oddball tonemapping that is a kind of compromise that allows for HDR tonemapping without it looking "too different".

Personally I'm hoping that LUT changing becomes a thing available on either a viewer level or integrated into EEP.  Then maybe at least that part of the screaming can stop.

[Cristiano Midnight]

14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It seems it has only been up since 

Updated on

Jun 17, 2024

And the Lab hasn't announced it anywhere I have been. One can download it but not use unless one is Premium +. Have you tried it?

It has been announced, there is an entire site for it. They opened it up to premium members:

https://secondlife.com/mobile

I have not tried it because stupidly, they did not include lifetime account holders in it. I am not interested anyway, but I would have at least tried it on my phone and iPad.

Edited Wednesday at 06:32 PM by Cristiano Midnight