Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[Sadvhi]

It is unfortunate, but people who are teens in real life can be coerced in SL. When I first joined SL, I was adopted into a family with a sister who was a teenager in real life. She told me that prior to joining our family, her previous mother in SL was inappropriate with her but she just went along with it even though it made her uncomfortable. After she told me what had happened, I felt responsible for her safety and was constantly stressed out because I felt like I had to protect her from harm. She's the only teen I've ever encountered in my many years in SL though, so hopefully such an incident has never happened to anyone else.

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Why is it hard for you to imagine some homeless, penniless, and friendless resident being vulnerable to being groomed? I expected way better from you Qie. I only have to point to the https://community.secondlife.com/forums/forum/319-make-friends/ section of the forum for one to see that there is a boatload of people in there needing more that they currently have and willing to advertise it. That doesn't even touch the sims inworld where there are plenty that are open to hypnosis, transformations and such into whatever else someone is willing to make of them.

Maybe we should give everyone in SL a free home and stipend so they won't be tempted into prostitution?  🤣 

[Madi Melodious]

6 minutes ago, Sadvhi said:

It is unfortunate, but people who are teens in real life can be coerced in SL.

It is actually interesting the degree that people will get hooked into a abusive relationship in SL.   Back when I started SL my alt was working with a land rental company.  We rented out a parcel to a BSDM master and subs.   I never really cared for that type of role playing but if they paid their rent, what they did on their land wasn't my business.   I got to know some of subs in the group and some of the stories they told me was horrifying, even by SL standards.     The way he treated them, they were miserable.   

I was still new to SL and I was completely stunned how someone could be so mentally abused in a video game and come back for more.  And be miserable too.  I just didn't see why they didn't log off and never come back.  

The mental abuse got so bad that Maggie and Cat finally had to intervene.  

[brodiac90]

28 minutes ago, Sadvhi said:

It is unfortunate, but people who are teens in real life can be coerced in SL. When I first joined SL, I was adopted into a family with a sister who was a teenager in real life. She told me that prior to joining our family, her previous mother in SL was inappropriate with her but she just went along with it even though it made her uncomfortable. After she told me what had happened, I felt responsible for her safety and was constantly stressed out because I felt like I had to protect her from harm. She's the only teen I've ever encountered in my many years in SL though, so hopefully such an incident has never happened to anyone else.

Unless you've been in a dangerous situation or experienced trauma and the freeze response, I'm not sure you can totally understand it. I have a lot of sympathy for people who freeze. Everyone likes to say they'd do this, or x, or they'd be strong etc, but until you've been through something like that it's hard to say. 

The longer you don't report something like that (RL or SL) the harder it becomes. The initial silence almost makes you seem guilty or complicit. Some people would worry that they'd be blamed as well. It's the whole "I didn't say or do anything when it happened so now I'm just as guility." Obviously, the real serious stuff does involve voluntary participation in SL, but like anything in life, there are varying degrees and complexities. Some of the inappropriateness aimed at child avatars doesn't require any participation at all. 

That's why if anyone is innapprporiate to your child avatar, you MUST report it ASAP. 

Edited May 17 by brodiac90

[Persephone Emerald]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Black and white thinking will not resolve this and as has been stated by various people throughout this thread, mostly only affects the innocent. 

/me bangs my head on the table.

 * * * * * *

Linden Lab is primarily protecting their own butts with these new changes to the TOS. Most people would not expect them to stop RL abuse, though some people believe that allowing this kind of AP to be readily available online encourages it. I recognize that you believe it acts as an outlet for socially unacceptable behavior, but you have not cited any evidence for this belief, and this is not a belief that is widely accepted.

Whatever the reality of the effect of media and virtual depictions, these depictions - even with cartoon figures - are illegal in many countries. Linden Lab can't completely stop users from depicting this stuff, but it can reduce the visibility of it in SL and punish those who get caught by banning them from the platform. This is a deterent. Those portraying children engaged in AP are not innocents.

Edited May 17 by Persephone Emerald

[Love Zhaoying]

40 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Unless you've been in a dangerous situation or experienced trauma and the freeze response, I'm not sure you can totally understand it. I have a lot of sympathy for people who freeze. Everyone likes to say they'd do this, or x, or they'd be strong etc, but until you've been through something like that it's hard to say. 

The longer you don't report something like that (RL or SL) the harder it becomes. The initial silence almost makes you seem guilty or complicit. Some people would worry that they'd be blamed as well. It's the whole "I didn't say or do anything when it happened so now I'm just as guility." Obviously, the real serious stuff does involve voluntary participation in SL, but like anything in life, there are varying degrees and complexities. Some of the inappropriateness aimed at child avatars doesn't require any participation at all. 

That's why if anyone is innapprporiate to your child avatar, you MUST report it ASAP. 

I'm good at "forgetting" the most mentally and physically abusive experiences of my life. I don't let them define me. But boy, I could write one heck of a book!

 

[Qie Niangao]

16 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

That's why if anyone is innapprporiate to your child avatar, you MUST report it ASAP. 

Yes.

3 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

Yeah, it's real enough for the sickos to get whatever they get out of it. I'm not sure it matters if the children are virtual or not. Pedofile seems to be a pretty apt description, and given my own RL childhood I think I can state that with some confidence. 

There is a difference in kind between real harm to a real child and role-played harm to a virtual "child" played by an adult. Both are despicable. Both are illegal. Both must be deterred. But they are not the same and everyone knows this including the criminal justice system.

In the real world—outside SL, outside the forums, outside social media—absolutely "it matters if the children are virtual or not." Personally, even if it's just semantics, I'd rather the language retain that distinction.

[Coffee Pancake]

Sheesh .. i got out to get some groceries and poke a thrift store and ...

 

SO HOWS THE THREAD DOING ?

 

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Sheesh .. i got out to get some groceries and poke a thrift store and ...

 

SO HOWS THE THREAD DOING ?

 

It's a barrel-o-fun!

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Sadvhi said:

It is unfortunate, but people who are teens in real life can be coerced in SL. When I first joined SL, I was adopted into a family with a sister who was a teenager in real life. She told me that prior to joining our family, her previous mother in SL was inappropriate with her but she just went along with it even though it made her uncomfortable. After she told me what had happened, I felt responsible for her safety and was constantly stressed out because I felt like I had to protect her from harm. She's the only teen I've ever encountered in my many years in SL though, so hopefully such an incident has never happened to anyone else.

And young teens turn to adults who believe that the abuse is normal and their lot in life. It is the way they get their love, because they have not known how in any other way. It is unfortunately not nearly as uncommon as many would like to think, just that the shame and guilt is so strong that in spite of it not being their fault, they'll often carry the secrets to their grave and until that time, struggle not to re enact those behaviours if they know better or indulge in them in if they don't.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, brodiac90 said:

Unless you've been in a dangerous situation or experienced trauma and the freeze response, I'm not sure you can totally understand it. I have a lot of sympathy for people who freeze. Everyone likes to say they'd do this, or x, or they'd be strong etc, but until you've been through something like that it's hard to say. 

I think most people (who haven't experience long term abuse of any kind) can imagine "fight or flight" responses to perceived danger or vulnerabity.

Some of us also react with fawning (attempting to appease or placate an abuser) or freezing (a deer in the headlights response in which one is incapable of acting effectively). I think these later types of trauma response are more common when the person has experienced abuse as a child.

I'm lucky perhaps that I never feel that vulnerable in SL or elsewhere online. In RL abusive situations I do use fawning first to appease someone who feels threatening to me, then flight (hiding or running away), then freezing in various ways to differing degrees. Freezing is not a conscious choice, while fawning, fleeing or fighting back can be. Freezing is a response the mind creates when a child knows they have no way to defend themself. It can be triggered when as an adult one should be able to flee or fight back, but the person relapses into a response they learned as a child.

I've been in a BDSM scene in which I kind of froze when the Dominant started doing things that I'd said I didn't want to do. In that situation, I felt my knees go weak and realized my body was telling me that the scene needed to stop. I was able to tell him to stop, but if he had been someone who I'd been trained to trust, that might not have been possible. 

In theory, I can imagine someone being coerced into doing things they don't want to do in SL. In reality though, I think making it harder - technically and socially - for perpetrators to do bad stuff, also makes it harder for them to connect with potential victims.

[Arielle Popstar]

46 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yes.

There is a difference in kind between real harm to a real child and role-played harm to a virtual "child" played by an adult. Both are despicable. Both are illegal. Both must be deterred. But they are not the same and everyone knows this including the criminal justice system.

In the real world—outside SL, outside the forums, outside social media—absolutely "it matters if the children are virtual or not." Personally, even if it's just semantics, I'd rather the language retain that distinction.

The difference is that the real child and the virtual child operated by an adult is not that different psychologically. The virtual one is re-enacting and trying to heal from their real childhood. The real one is considered the victim where the virtual one is considered and treated as a perpetrator even though the older virtual adult would normally be considered such but in virtual world culture is rarely considered.

[Arielle Popstar]

26 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I've been in a BDSM scene in which I kind of froze when the Dominant started doing things that I'd said I didn't want to do. In that situation, I felt my knees go weak and realized my body was telling me that the scene needed to stop. I was able to tell him to stop, but if he had been someone who I'd been trained to trust, that might not have been possible. 

In theory, I can imagine someone being coerced into doing things they don't want to do in SL. In reality though, I think making it harder - technically and socially - for perpetrators to do bad stuff, also makes it harder for them to connect with potential victims.

Yes I think it is because psychologically one does not mature beyond the time of a traumatic event until one deals and heals from it. So in a similar situation the fight, flight, freeze response gets stuck in a rut and is replayed each time, regardless of the age. One can do all the right things well into adulthood, but the wrong sort of trigger brings one back to that stage of life that the event first happened.

Edited May 17 by Arielle Popstar
spelling

[Persephone Emerald]

14 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The difference is that the real child and the virtual child operated by an adult is not that different psychologically. The virtual one is re-enacting and trying to heal from their real childhood. The real one is considered the victim where the virtual one is considered and treated as a perpetrator even though the older virtual adult would normally be considered such but in virtual world culture is rarely considered.

I think some people playing a child avatar might react psychologically as you describe, but many (maybe most?) would be able to say "No" at some point. Obviously we can't poll every child avatar in SL, but we've had a few post on these forums.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I think some people playing a child avatar might react psychologically as you describe, but many (maybe most?) would be able to say "No" at some point. Obviously we can't poll every child avatar in SL, but we've had a few post on these forums.

Maybe but there are different sorts of childhood trauma's and abuse. Not all are sexual but I'd wager then most feel a sense of helplessness when faced with a similar event.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

10 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes I can't see how it protects anyone inside SL, but it does help protect actual RL children  in society overall when we censure all media that presents abuse of children in a positive light. People are influenced by media, and if media is 'saying' abuse is okay then a certain percentage of the populace will believe it is.

Lets not forget pedos are trying to "normalize" their sickness, to this end they call themselves MAPs... minor attracted persons, since pedo is such a hateful accusatory word. Be nice to the poor pedos lolol 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Sheesh .. i got out to get some groceries and poke a thrift store and ...

 

SO HOWS THE THREAD DOING ?

 

I'm surprised it hasn't already been shut down. Honestly its run its course, and should be shut down. This whole debate is getting tiresome, and all the people blubbering about protecting the poor child avis from abuse is getting old.

LL is covering its ass, that's all. Its not about protecting children, real or virtual.

Edited May 17 by BilliJo Aldrin
aded a word, took out a word

[Jaylinbridges]

15 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

15 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Studies have also seen that when certain types are able to get their jollies in virtual, they are less inclined to take their cravings to the real world.

 

Cite a source because that's not what I've read.  It actually empowers.them in some cases to be more active in RL.  

Their is no conclusive correct answer. See the WIKI and Reference list below.  The three answers are Yes, No, None of the Above.

Is SL age-play the same as child pornography?  Pornography is visual media.  If nobody took pictures or videos, or recorded text chats, and therefore did not distribute or share the age-play media, then it is not pornography (which has to have a material aspect to it). You won't be jailed if there is no proof or evidence in the RL. This does not seem to be the case in SL however, where you can be accused and have no defense at all.

You could have googled this yourself: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_child_pornography_and_child_sexual_abuse

A range of research has been conducted examining the link between viewing child pornography and perpetration of child sexual abuse, and much disagreement persists regarding whether a causal connection has been established.^[1][2][3][4] Perspectives fall into one of three positions:

• Viewing it increases the likelihood of an individual offending. Reasons include that the pornography normalizes and/or legitimizes the sexual interest in minors, as well as that pornography might eventually cease to satisfy the user.
• Viewing it decreases the likelihood of an individual offending. Reasons are that the pornography acts as a substitute for actual offenses. Simulated pornography is suggested as an alternative to avoid harming real victims.
• There is no meaningful association between viewing it and victimization rates, in the same way that viewing car crashes, murders, or other violent acts do not cause more victims, and that available evidence is insufficient to draw any conclusions at all.
• Child pornography (also called CP, child sexual abuse material,^[1] CSAM,^[2] child porn, or kiddie porn) is erotic material that depicts persons under the age of 18. The precise characteristics of what constitutes child pornography varies by criminal jurisdiction

Edited May 17 by Jaylinbridges

[BilliJo Aldrin]

44 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Their is no conclusive correct answer. See the WIKI and Reference list below.  The three answers are Yes, No, None of the Above.

Is SL age-play the same as child pornography?  Pornography is visual media.  If nobody took pictures or videos, or recorded text chats, and therefore did not distribute or share the age-play media, then it is not pornography (which has to have a material aspect to it). You won't be jailed if there is no proof or evidence in the RL. This does not seem to be the case in SL however, where you can be accused and have no defense at all.

You could have googled this yourself: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_child_pornography_and_child_sexual_abuse

A range of research has been conducted examining the link between viewing child pornography and perpetration of child sexual abuse, and much disagreement persists regarding whether a causal connection has been established.^[1][2][3][4] Perspectives fall into one of three positions:

• Viewing it increases the likelihood of an individual offending. Reasons include that the pornography normalizes and/or legitimizes the sexual interest in minors, as well as that pornography might eventually cease to satisfy the user.
• Viewing it decreases the likelihood of an individual offending. Reasons are that the pornography acts as a substitute for actual offenses. Simulated pornography is suggested as an alternative to avoid harming real victims.
• There is no meaningful association between viewing it and victimization rates, in the same way that viewing car crashes, murders, or other violent acts do not cause more victims, and that available evidence is insufficient to draw any conclusions at all.
• Child pornography (also called CP, child sexual abuse material,^[1] CSAM,^[2] child porn, or kiddie porn) is erotic material that depicts persons under the age of 18. The precise characteristics of what constitutes child pornography varies by criminal jurisdiction

lol it seems to me that you are saying that if pedo play happens in sl and no one records it, its not illegal. Very interesting.

*waiting for the shreakers to respond*

Edited May 17 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Their is no conclusive correct answer. See the WIKI and Reference list below.  The three answers are Yes, No, None of the Above.

My initial response is awaiting moderation apparently, though I did little more then quote a part of that article that mentions how the stats for offences has dropped since pron limitations have relaxed. So the possibility exists that the tighter ToS policies might result in an uptick in RL stats as least as far as SecondLife affects them.

[Jaylinbridges]

58 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

lol it seems to me that you are saying that if pedo play happens in sl and no one records it, its not illegal. Very interesting

No, I am quoting what child pornography is as defined by the law.  And listing some research whether Visual Simulated Pornography leads to actual child abuse.   Do not try to read anything else into this but what I said.  Same argument about do violent video games played by kids and adults lead to more real life mass killings by kids and adults.   

Pornography is not age-play, unless it is recorded as in Media.   It is not the same as age-play, which can happen without any material evidence of course.  The law is concerned about child pornography distribution to paedophiles and pedophiles.  SL does not want any age-play sessions to show up on YouTube as recorded in Second Life.  I said nothing about legality.

If you assume that both of the consenting adult men practicing age-play sex in SL, are also paedophiles in Real Life, then the pornography wiki sort of answers that question.  They are creating their own real-time child porn show even if not recorded, so  how do these two adult SL men act in RL?  Are they searching for and grooming children, or mowing the lawn and clipping the hedge?

 

 

Edited May 17 by Jaylinbridges

[Kathlen Onyx]

10 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

SL does not want any age-play sessions to show up on YouTube as recorded in Second Life.  I said nothing about legality.

 

This really is the meat and potatoes of all this. I think SL knows that they can't stop ***play.  

[BilliJo Aldrin]

39 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My initial response is awaiting moderation apparently, though I did little more then quote a part of that article that mentions how the stats for offences has dropped since pron limitations have relaxed. So the possibility exists that the tighter ToS policies might result in an uptick in RL stats as least as far as SecondLife affects them.

So if the stats are true, if we really want to save rl children from rl predators, we should allow virtual predators and virtual children to engage in sl 😂

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

This really is the meat and potatoes of all this. I think SL knows that they can't stop ***play.  

Yes!

This is why I countered someone's "Black and White!11!!!" and "AP will still exist!!1!!!" posts with a long explanation about the concept of "deterrence". 

I don't think anyone really believes a "deterrent" (like a Rule change) is supposed to completely prevent something from happening, that would be impossible in most cases.  So my point is, when someone says "it won't work", they don't get it.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

22 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

No, I am quoting what child pornography is as defined by the law.  And listing some research whether Visual Simulated Pornography leads to actual child abuse.   Do not try to read anything else into this but what I said.  Same argument about do violent video games played by kids and adults lead to more real life mass killings by kids and adults.   

Pornography is not age-play, unless it is recorded as in Media.   It is not the same as age-play, which can happen without any material evidence of course.  The law is concerned about child pornography distribution to paedophiles and pedophiles.  SL does not want any age-play sessions to show up on YouTube as recorded in Second Life.  I said nothing about legality.

If you assume that both of the consenting adult men practicing age-play sex in SL, are also paedophiles in Real Life, then the pornography wiki sort of answers that question.  They are creating their own real-time child porn show even if not recorded, so  how do these two adult SL men act in RL?  Are they searching for and grooming children, or mowing the lawn and clipping the hedge?

 

 

yes if its recorded its illegal porn, but if its not recorded, there  is no offence