So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Jordyn McGregor said:

So three days ago my friend met her perfect man in SL.  They were starting to build a life on his sim, were enjoying learning about each other and having fun.

Last night his account was banned for "violating the terms and conditions" of SL.  He'd been reported by a vindictive ex for *****.  He appealed, but he is out.  No telling him what he sposedly did or giving him a chance to defend himself.  

This is a man who spent hundreds of RL dollars every month in SL.  So if he can be tossed aside and lose everything without warning or explanation, anyone can.

I almost don't want to interact with anyone inworld ever again if this is what can happen.

On the other hand, I tend to take LL's word for it when they say that Governance does their "due diligence".  So, do we really know the whole story?  It gets complicated really fast if you don't!

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

She is, and I will. 🙂

You dropped too many hints! ❤️

 

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

People who think that language is clear and simple presumably aren't aware that half of the religious wars fought in the past 2000 years have been over the interpretation of a couple of words here and there in some very old books.

Even I, with no legal background whatsoever, could have worded that one single line in the ToS and the reply in the FAQ so there was no room for interpretation.  Why didn't they do that?

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Jordyn McGregor said:

So three days ago my friend met her perfect man in SL.  They were starting to build a life on his sim, were enjoying learning about each other and having fun.

Last night his account was banned for "violating the terms and conditions" of SL.  He'd been reported by a vindictive ex for "playing with personages not of age".  He appealed, but he is out.  No telling him what he sposedly did or giving him a chance to defend himself.  

This is a man who spent hundreds of RL dollars every month in SL.  So if he can be tossed aside and lose everything without warning or explanation, anyone can.

I almost don't want to interact with anyone inworld ever again if this is what can happen.

Ok thanks for sharing that as it is then a very recent case of Governance not following its stated policies and anything coming out of their collective mouths to the contrary is disproven by their actions.

[JUSTUS Palianta]

However we have 0 idea if that guy did get up to naughty stuff and not tell his gf, its only hearsay.  Only linden knows the truth.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

On the other hand, I tend to take LL's word for it when they say that Governance does their "due diligence".  So, do we really know the whole story?  It gets complicated really fast if you don't!

 

We don't, Jordyn doesn't, and, given how really opaque LL's disciplinary procedures sometimes are, it's even possible that the person in question doesn't.

I try not to judge unless I have at least a reasonable assemblage of the facts available. Obviously, everyone has to accept Governance's judgement on such things, as they have absolute power (and, yes, more access to information than any of us), but I'm quite sure they've made, and will continue to make, decisions with which we might disagree, even if we had access to what they know. I think it's totally fine for Jordyn to believe that this was an unjust decision. It's entirely possible that, even if we knew all, we might agree as well. And in the meantime she's displaying faith in someone she's come to know and trust.

And all of this is relevant because of the "subjective" element that is perforce present in these new rules (and in the old ones too). To some degree we have to have faith that Governance will be "reasonable" in their determinations of this case or that, but guaranteed they will get it wrong sometimes. We have trials by jury in RL, and despite the elaborate checks and balances and systems in place for those, they still get it wrong . . . a lot.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

However we have 0 idea if that guy did get up to naughty stuff and not tell his gf, its only hearsay.  Only linden knows the truth.

Governance has stated they send warning letters and try to reeducate first. Doesn't sound like that happened which is telling, especially after the recent ToS update and the Faq stating glowingly how the Governance team will be doing better in future,

[Madi Melodious]

16 minutes ago, JUSTUS Palianta said:

Why do tinys always want to bend and break the rule or change them to suit themselves.  The rules will be interpreted exactly as they are written.  Complaining until you are blue in the face isn't going to help this time.

 

Well, you are so smart, you explain it all do us.  There are 228 pages here if people trying to figure, not all of us are adorable little avatars, them out.   Start down there at page one and lay it down for us.  I'm sure we will all agree with whatever you come up with.

[Aya Sweetheart]

11 minutes ago, Jordyn McGregor said:

So three days ago my friend met her perfect man in SL.  They were starting to build a life on his sim, were enjoying learning about each other and having fun.

Last night his account was banned for "violating the terms and conditions" of SL.  He'd been reported by a vindictive ex for "playing with personages not of age".  He appealed, but he is out.  No telling him what he sposedly did or giving him a chance to defend himself.  

This is a man who spent hundreds of RL dollars every month in SL.  So if he can be tossed aside and lose everything without warning or explanation, anyone can.

I almost don't want to interact with anyone inworld ever again if this is what can happen.

3 days?  She barely knew him... I seriously doubt they banned his account just because someone made a claim.  I'm not trusting of LL or other peoples claim about them

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Even I, with no legal background whatsoever, could have worded that one single line in the ToS and the reply in the FAQ so there was no room for interpretation.  Why didn't they do that?

Definitely. And that of course is the reason that we are discussing this here, in the hope that LL takes the hint.

But they could produce a document the size of the OED, and it would still have room for splitting hairs and misinterpretation. All we can do ultimately is reduce the likelihood of that.

[Aya Sweetheart]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Governance has stated they send warning letters and try to reeducate first. Doesn't sound like that happened which is telling, especially after the recent ToS update and the Faq stating glowingly how the Governance team will be doing better in future,

They said they may reeducate first... it depends how bad they see the infraction as and what evidence they have.  Perma ban can be the first step

[MissSweetViolet]

Also important to remember we only know what the guy said, but we don't know how her friend looks [could she look young enough to get him in trouble?], what he might of been up to otherwise, etc. She met him 3 days ago, 3 days....That's not long enough to trust some enough to call them "your perfect guy" in real life, let alone SL.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Governance has stated they send warning letters and try to reeducate first. Doesn't sound like that happened which is telling, especially after the recent ToS update and the Faq stating glowingly how the Governance team will be doing better in future,

Unless...For the more severe offenses, the immediate action will still be to terminate their access to Second Life.

[Anna Salyx]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ok thanks for sharing that as it is then a very recent case of Governance not following its stated policies and anything coming out of their collective mouths to the contrary is disproven by their actions.

How so?  I mean really, how is the "proof"?  Governance is not going to discuss a single phoneme about the case with a third party, no matter how close.  So all we have is her account which is, allegedly, his truthful account, and passed on to us by yet another person.  That's a story that's 3 times removed.  His may or may not be truthful to her, she may nor may not be truthful to her friend, her friend telling us now may or may not be fully truthful.  The further away you get the murkier it becomes. Not saying it's not all transparently truthful, but the cold reality is that we can't take it on faith that shenanigans were indeed done by governance.  He said > she said > she said is a 'said' too far.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

They said they may reeducate first

Please tell me that's not the actual language they used!

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

They said they may reeducate first... it depends how bad they see the infraction as and what evidence they have.  Perma ban can be the first step

 

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Unless...For the more severe offenses, the immediate action will still be to terminate their access to Second Life.

I leave it to others to make excuses for them. This would be a good time for Governance to show a better face and that they are doing the best for the community. Instead we see and hear of them running about like a bull in a china shop.

[Aya Sweetheart]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Please tell me that's not the actual language they used!

They just say "educate" in the FAQ

 

Q: Will Residents be immediately terminated if it is determined they are violating any part of the new policy?

A: Not all violations of the policy will result in an immediate termination. Depending upon the nature and severity of the violation, Governance has a suspension tree that is utilized to make attempts to educate the Resident first. However, if those attempts fail and the behavior is continued, it will result in termination. For the more severe offenses, the immediate action will still be to terminate their access to Second Life.

(https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000173097-child-avatar-faq/)

Edited May 7 by Aya Sweetheart

[Madi Melodious]

20 minutes ago, Jordyn McGregor said:

So three days ago my friend met her perfect man in SL.  They were starting to build a life on his sim, were enjoying learning about each other and having fun.

Three days and they already shacked up?  That is fast even for SL.  

By the 3-day logic my adult alt may have missed out when she was hit on by a mailbox.  She was a little more adventurous back then so who know where it could have went.  Alas, she was already married.  Might have missed a great opportunity for a discount on stamps too.  🥰

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Aya Sweetheart said:

They just say "educate" in the FAQ

When one has been in SL multiple years, it would really be a re-educate thing but in any case, it is an inconsequential quibble whichever one uses.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

A: Not all violations of the policy will result in an immediate termination. Depending upon the nature and severity of the violation, Governance has a suspension tree that is utilized to make attempts to educate the Resident first. However, if those attempts fail and the behavior is continued, it will result in termination. For the more severe offenses, the immediate action will still be to terminate their access to Second Life.

AP is the most severe offense.

Edited May 7 by Coffee Pancake

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

When one has been in SL multiple years, it would really be a re-educate thing but in any case, it is an inconsequential quibble whichever one uses.

It's a euphemism either way.

Slapping someone's wrist and telling them they're "wrong" without explaining effectively and fully why, or what "right" is, is not "education."

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

13 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

They said they may reeducate first

Please tell me that's not the actual language they used!

I assume they used the proper form, "re-eduMAcate".

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Slapping someone's wrist and telling them they're "wrong" without explaining effectively and fully why, or what "right" is, is not "education."

So, all them Catholic Nuns did it wrong!  No wonder the song goes, "we don't need no education"!

[Anna Salyx]

3 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

Three days and they already shacked up?  That is fast even for SL. 

oh, I missed that part completely.  I thought they had been together much longer than that.  Yeah, knew the guy three days and suddenly he's banned?  I mean bad timing on her part to be sure, but I have questions.  lots of question. and not making excuses for governance but things are Jakes Blues shady..... IMO.

 

 

[Indy Melody]

I can't find the revelant documents now, but there are a handful violations other than CP that are automatic ban situations. Selling Lindens outside the LindenX is one I believe.