Lab Gab April 2024 - Comments? Discussion?

[Sid Nagy]

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But maybe we should hang on a bit and see what's down the road before lowering lifeboats.

You mean, here on the forums?
🙀

[SarahThe Wanderer]

 

12 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

On the new rules for child avatars.

More rules for residents because of recent allegations against staff is not the solution to those allegations. It's pandering to people who skimmed over the whole thing and assumed there was guilt.

Users with entirely innocent uninvolved child avatars did not cause this mess and should not be made the scapegoat and punished for it, regardless of what anyone personally thinks about them.

 

---

 

To elaborate here .. even something simple like banning child avatars from proximity to adult content is a train wreck that makes it unsafe to have a child avatar anywhere in SL.

In practice "proximity" means that a child avatar can't be in a boat, even an innocent boat, because every other boat is really a boat shaped sex bed.

How do child avatars shop for furniture .. all stores sell PG and Adult side by side.

How do child avatars exist in public spaces where anyone can walk up sporting no end of spicy content.

What if someone rezzes a mobile sex bed (aka a CAR) on M land, drives it on mainland roads, and passes a child avatar. That child avatar on G land and is now in proximity.

 

Restricting child avatars to G land is also not a solution, mainland is hopscotch of G and M (with some private A regions just for fun). So restricting to G actually bans child avatars from region crossings.

 

This isn't hyperbole .. the original rules and definitions are so fuzzy because of issues like this, LL couldn't solve this back in 2007 in a way that didn't outlaw an entire section of the community as a side effect.

 

You're thinking too much into it!!
Even in real life they can't prevent incidents from happening, what matters is that there's now rules and poeple should abide to it!!

if you want to be a child in SL;  be completely a child just like RL ( you're not adult and you'll be treated as child ) deal with it, that's the child's normal life, stop trying to find excuses! 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Sid Nagy said:

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But maybe we should hang on a bit and see what's down the road before lowering lifeboats.

You mean, here on the forums?
🙀

Who was supposed to add lifeboats to the design? We need a scapegoat.

[AmeliaJ08]

8 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

The problem is, though, that about a dozen, I think, US states have either introduced, or are in the process of introducing, laws requiring certain types of website and social media to require age verification before they allow people to access particular types of content.    The UK, France and Germany have all introduced, or are in the process of introducing, similar requirements, and the EU is in the process of considering an EU-wide directive.

Obviously these initiatives aren't being introduced with SL in mind, but SL could very well find itself caught by particular definitions (I don't know -- I've not studied any of the legislation in any detail -- but I don't imagine LL's legal advisors would want to take the risk that none of it will apply to SL) and, to my  mind, LL has little choice but to prepare for the strong possibility that it'll find itself -- along with businesses like YouTube, Meta and TwitterX, -- required to choose between adopting some form of age verification and banning adult content completely.

Age verification has come a long way since LL's last attempt to require it, and I can't imagine anyone based in the US, Europe or most other places will find it very difficult or intrusive to verify their age via one of the many third parties who are now offering this sort of service precisely as a result of these legislative initiatives.   

Yeah, this is almost certainly in response to tightening legislation in the USA but also abroad.

Of course LL could - for the moment anyway - just block or otherwise restrict access from those places but... well, that's a silly game to play. Still, some of the large internet smut sites are taking this approach so far which has had predictable results in the places affected.

The internet is going to be strangled by very silly legislation and all because people seem to think it's an alternative to being an attentive parent. All I can see it achieving is inconveniencing adults who have become very accustomed to the internet being adult in general, I'm not overly sure it will achieve its aims at all but maybe on a platform like SL it does stand a chance. It will also undoubtedly push users away who don't want to jump through the hoops.

I do have a lot less faith in the third parties you have mentioned and I can confidently predict that the inevitable data breach that *will* occur will be an explosive scandal in many countries. Privates lose data, it's what they do. Privates with nice cushy risk free government contracts especially.

 

 

Edited April 20 by AmeliaJ08

[xDancingStarx]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's only ever a matter of time before every companies database ends up for sale some place.

The argument will be that no personal information is kept either on the LL servers or on the verification company servers, only that the account holder is age verified. This 100% will be the argument. But. Adult activities is something many people do not want to be identified with. In no case. It's a huge psychological issue.

If I had never been on SL, but I had heard about the adult side of SL and went there to create an account and check it out, and before accessing the adult side were asked to show my face to the cam, it would be a clear no. I'm gone.

Without even looking at privacy concerns there would be the additional effort alone that would scare many users away. I don't have a webcam, so I'd have to get my phone. Google says "A recent study has found that 57% of online consumers abandon a website if a page takes longer than 3 seconds to load." and we're talking about a lot more than 3 seconds here.

In regards of privacy concerns they could promise me anything but (as a new user) I'm accessing this adult content site for the first time and I won't trust it at all, I'm not gonna believe them anything or at least have my doubts. So there are at least doubts on the one hand, and the psychological issue of not wanting my face to be identified with adult content at all on the other hand.

This would drive so many potential new users away, it would be catastrophic. And I'm not even talking about existing users here, this would be a blow in addition.

Right now I can access any adult content site I want and don't have to age verify, even if people claim there may be laws under way. When I look this topic up on the EU side, it says that "Very Large Online Platforms" are being targeted by this new "Digital Services Act". SL apparently wouldn't even fall into this category. Essentially I could understand if LL have a backup plan in place for when they are directly confronted with either blocking users or age verifying them. Then they could go state by state, country by country, and force age verification where it's really needed. But if they do it proactively, and the lab gab has left so much room here for speculation, it would be catastrophic.

Edited April 20 by xDancingStarx

[AmeliaJ08]

17 minutes ago, xDancingStarx said:

The argument will be that no personal information is kept either on the LL servers or on the verification company servers, only that the account holder's is age verified. This 100% will be the argument. But. Adult activities is something many people do not want to be identified with. In no case. It's a huge psychological issue.

If I had never been on SL, but I had heard about the adult side of SL and went there to create an account and check it out, and before accessing the adult side were asked to show my face to the cam, it would be a clear no. I'm gone.

Without even looking at privacy concerns there would be the additional effort alone that would scare many users away. I don't have a webcam, so I'd have to get my phone. Google says "A recent study has found that 57% of online consumers abandon a website if a page takes longer than 3 seconds to load." and we're talking about a lot more than 3 seconds here.

In regards of privacy concerns they could promise me anything but (as a new user) I'm accessing this adult content site for the first time and I won't trust it at all, I'm not gonna believe them anything or at least have my doubts. So there are at least doubts on the one hand, and the psychological issue of not wanting my face to be identified with adult content at all on the other hand.

This would drive so many potential new users away, it would be catastrophic. And I'm not even talking about existing users here, this would be a blow in addition.

Right now I can access any adult content site I want and don't have to age verify, even if people claim there may be laws under way. When I look this topic up on the EU side, it says that "Very Large Online Platforms" are being targeted by this new "Digital Services Act". SL apparently wouldn't even fall into this category. Essentially I could understand if LL have a backup plan in place for when they are directly confronted with either blocking users or age verifying them. Then they could go state by state, country by country, and force age verification where it's really needed. But if they do it proactively, and the lab gab has left so much room here for speculation, it would be catastrophic.

For what it's worth all of these age verification schemes I have seen use a very opaque method but it has nothing to do with webcams or pictures of the applicant, in my experience.

I could make guesses as to where these third parties are getting their data: public and semi-public financial records, electoral records, possibly even birth registers... it will vary country by country and in the cases where these firms are contracted out by government (UK for example where a single firm was contracted to perform age verification for a certain large adult website) you can probably assume their data sources are even less public, the absolute simplest and most reliable way of these firms operating is to give them some degree of access to electoral and tax records for example.

I'm yet to find a single scheme that is utterly transparent about their method and of course that isn't expected since it is the special sauce that makes their business a business.

It's going to be a disaster when these schemes leak data, some more than others given the differing sources/scopes but they will all leak since they're all in the business of age verification and not data security. They also all have high incentive to store data for future customers.

 

 

Edited April 20 by AmeliaJ08

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This goes back to the founding of Zindra, and the determination of some child avatars to push the envelope and insist that they had the right to enter Zindra and hang out in bars and clubs if they liked, or make a home, without being banned, as long as they did not engage in adult behaviour. Which kind of loses the plot, but it was a symbolic protest -- and it won.

I think if you are sincere and serious about being a child avatar properly, you should NOT be fighting to get into Zindra. So I support a ban on child avatars and child content in adult areas. It works the other way around -- you can't have adult activity in "General". So in "Adult" you should have child avatars and child content. That goes to the crux of the recent scandal: child content on an adult-rated sim, even if you can't prove "indecent" or "*****" activity. 

As my mother always used to tell us, in the Catholic tradition, "Avoid the near occasion of sin."

Don't go to those roadhouses of ill repute where young girls will lose their virtue.

It's not about Apple Falls and having you walk in a store as a child avatar in an M region and a bed is on sale with both "M" and "A" animations. That's edge-casing and hair-splitting. There's all too much of that around this issue that denies common sense. Most merchants if they want sanity in their store do not put out the adult version of furniture so they don't get loads of day-trippers and looky-loos and kids "trying out the animations". Having it on sale is not having it in action.

Meanwhile, a child bed on an adult sim with a mixture of children and adults means that you have the setting where unlawful behaviour will take place. So you eliminate that climate. I think it's more than reasonable.

Every time someone attempts to deal with the ***** problem they encounter a welter of edge-casers saying "But mah anime waifu short avatar who isn't really a child." Please, let's not be children here, literally. The anime and cute cubs industries are built on this blurring of the distinctions deliberately and we shouldn't be forced to endure that game in SL. If you want to do adult things, don't be in a child avatar; if you want to be a child avatar, don't demand a presence on adult sims. The question here is not about "M" but "A"

 

I suppose in RL we should ban children from Las Vegas.

There is absolutly no reason for a blanket ban of children from Zindra. 

The only thing that should be banned, and it already is, is children hopping on adult pose balls and doing the nasty.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

  

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Oh .. oh my.

It's going to be a poop-show and will require official identity documents, passports, id cards, drivers licences, etc. We did this already.

There's good reasons why LL tossed age verification in the trash, not least of all was a huge break to participation and growth. It disproportionately affects minority demographics.

Yes, I remember the debacle with Aristotle, too, which must have been twelve years ago at least.   So, presumably, do LL, who must find the memory rather painful.   Things have moved on a bit since then, of course, and I see no reason why companies should insist on photo id, or any other method of age verification that's any more intrusive than is required to comply with their legal obligations.     I've not studied the matter in any great detail, but I don't think I've yet seen any legislation that actually requires particular forms of age verification.    The law in Texas,for example, says 

Quote

           Sec. 129B.003.  REASONABLE AGE VERIFICATION METHODS. (a)  
     In this section, "digital identification" means information stored
     on a digital network that may be accessed by a commercial entity and
     that serves as proof of the identity of an individual.
            (b)  A commercial entity that knowingly and intentionally
     publishes or distributes material on an Internet website or a third
     party that performs age verification under this chapter shall
     require an individual to:
                  (1)  provide digital identification; or
                  (2)  comply with a commercial age verification system
     that verifies age using:
                        (A)  government-issued identification; or
                        (B)  a commercially reasonable method that relies
     on public or private transactional data to verify the age of an
     individual.

It's perfectly possible both to borrow money and to gamble online -- both age restricted activities in most jurisdictions -- without having to produce photo ID, so I see no reason to fear adult content providers will ask for photo id unless they're required so to do.

2 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I do have a lot less faith in the third parties you have mentioned and I can confidently predict that the inevitable data breach that *will* occur will be an explosive scandal in many countries. Privates lose data, it's what they do. Privates with nice cushy risk free government contracts especially.

I'm not so sure.  I'm thinking of the major credit reference agencies, some of whom I know for a fact already offer online age verification services internationally, by asking you a few questions to confirm you are who you say you are (or, at least, that you know a reasonable amount about the financial affairs of the person you claim to be) and then checking that against the public and private databases to which they have access.    Those companies have a huge incentive to keep their data locked down and out of the hands of identity thieves.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

  

Yes, I remember the debacle with Aristotle, too, which must have been twelve years ago at least.   So, presumably, do LL, who must find the memory rather painful.   Things have moved on a bit since then, of course, and I see no reason why companies should insist on photo id, or any other method of age verification that's any more intrusive than is required to comply with their legal obligations.     I've not studied the matter in any great detail, but I don't think I've yet seen any legislation that actually requires particular forms of age verification.    The law in Texas,for example, says 

It's perfectly possible both to borrow money and to gamble online -- both age restricted activities in most jurisdictions -- without having to produce photo ID, so I see no reason to fear adult content providers will ask for photo id unless they're required so to do.

I'm not so sure.  I'm thinking of the major credit reference agencies, some of whom I know for a fact already offer online age verification services internationally, by asking you a few questions to confirm you are who you say you are (or, at least, that you know a reasonable amount about the financial affairs of the person you claim to be) and then checking that against the public and private databases to which they have access.    Those companies have a huge incentive to keep their data locked down and out of the hands of identity thieves.

 

Way back when you had to age verify I needed to provide the last four numbers of my SSN. That along with my real name (?) was enought to show i was an adult.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

13 hours ago, xDancingStarx said:

22:23 "strengthening our age verification process. something we'll be sharing more about soon."

No new user who wants to check out SL for its adult side will be going through an age verification process. Many users who are currently participating in adult content will not be willing to hold their ID or face into a cam or similar to age verify, especially on one of those millions of alt accounts. This could have a huge negative impact on the SL userbase and economy.

A well know porn site is demanding age verification in my state, im like whatever, lots of others aren’t 😂

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

  

Yes, I remember the debacle with Aristotle, too, which must have been twelve years ago at least.   So, presumably, do LL, who must find the memory rather painful.   Things have moved on a bit since then, of course, and I see no reason why companies should insist on photo id, or any other method of age verification that's any more intrusive than is required to comply with their legal obligations.     I've not studied the matter in any great detail, but I don't think I've yet seen any legislation that actually requires particular forms of age verification.    The law in Texas,for example, says 

It's perfectly possible both to borrow money and to gamble online -- both age restricted activities in most jurisdictions -- without having to produce photo ID, so I see no reason to fear adult content providers will ask for photo id unless they're required so to do.

I'm not so sure.  I'm thinking of the major credit reference agencies, some of whom I know for a fact already offer online age verification services internationally, by asking you a few questions to confirm you are who you say you are (or, at least, that you know a reasonable amount about the financial affairs of the person you claim to be) and then checking that against the public and private databases to which they have access.    Those companies have a huge incentive to keep their data locked down and out of the hands of identity thieves.

 

Experian had a giant data leak, handed out 15M records back in 2015: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/01/experian-hack-t-mobile-credit-checks-personal-information

Also had a leak from 2022, reported last year: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2023/01/experian-glitch-exposing-credit-files-lasted-47-days/

I don't trust these firms because they have little incentive to do better. Their business is credit reporting, not data security and even if they did care they will be providing data to third parties who you also have to trust to not be incompetent. It's a mess!

 

Edited April 20 by AmeliaJ08

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Experian had a giant data leak

But since they hold data on everyone anyway, I guess there's nothing to lose by using their services for age verification.

[AmeliaJ08]

4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

But since they hold data on everyone anyway, I guess there's nothing to lose by using their services for age verification.

I see your point but I know I've been age verified by various firms (who themselves may source it from people like Experian) and I do wonder if they are holding data on what exactly the verification was for, as in what service was I requesting to use.

It's a minefield, I think it's highly plausible there could be solid links made between leaked credit data and specific applications for adult services though.

 

 

Edited April 20 by AmeliaJ08

[Love Zhaoying]

Even if LL somehow knows who I am in RL, I don't think they'll care about my kinks or personal stuff like which bits I wear. So, no matter what happens with "verification", I'm ok with it because as the saying goes, "there's no shame in my game".

[Innula Zenovka]

20 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I see your point but I know I've been age verified by various firms (who themselves may source it from people like Experian) and I do wonder if they are holding data on what exactly the verification was for, as in what service was I requesting to use.

It's a minefield, I think it's highly plausible there could be solid links made between leaked credit data and specific applications for adult services though.

 

 

I don't know, but I would imagine that, at the appropriate stage in the sign-up process, the service provider hands you over to experian, who ask you a couple of questions to check against their records to confirm it's you, and they then pass you back to the service provider, along with confirmation that they think you're over 18,

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Even if LL somehow knows who I am in RL, I don't think they'll care about my kinks or personal stuff like which bits I wear. So, no matter what happens with "verification", I'm ok with it because as the saying goes, "there's no shame in my game".

That's what I was thinking, too.  I AM an adult and like millions of other people on the interwebs, I look at adult stuff now and then.  What exactly is someone going to do with that info?  Send me spam?   I have a folder for that.  Doesn't Experian already have a lot of info about your credit and such?  Don't banks use that info when you apply for loans?  

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's what I was thinking, too.  I AM an adult and like millions of other people on the interwebs, I look at adult stuff now and then.  What exactly is someone going to do with that info?  Send me spam?   I have a folder for that.  Doesn't Experian already have a lot of info about your credit and such?  Don't banks use that info when you apply for loans?  

That being said, I would "prefer" if my Second Life and "Real Life" names and personas aren't both publicly tied together, but one day that will happen anyway when I want to perform my own music in SL on streaming video. 

I just don't want to moderate myself in SL due to being employed in RL, etc. 🙂 It won't matter when I am closer to retirement.

Paranoid? No, not really. Just trying to be a "happy medium" realist!

 

Edited April 20 by Love Zhaoying

[Ayashe Ninetails]

5 hours ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

This is my biggest concern about sites that require verification. It's a matter of 'when' not 'if' that site gets hacked and users data ends up being sold on the dark web to be used to falsly create/verifiy other kinds of accounts. Depending what sites that's used for that can get pretty *****ty pretty quick for the original user. And they might say they have the most up-to-date controls, practices, policies, protections etc. etc. in place to prevent that happening but it means didly squat, because a lot of hacks happen because of a silly mistake or oversight.

Exactly right, and at least in my experience, it's often difficult to even find out who exactly these third-parties who will be verifying and storing all this information even are. You usually have to hunt through FAQs or the Privacy Policy or Terms, or sometimes the site's forum or Reddit or something just to find the name.

Then you find some fake assurances that your data will be kept secure, but little disclaimers that if you want it deleted for whatever reason, they'll comply IF you're located in a state/region that has specific privacy laws they have to legally follow (like California, the EU, etc.).

If the company is located in another country (as is sometimes the case), that will only complicate things. Etc. Etc.

Now if it turns out that Second Life's age verification will require less face scan and ID shenanigans and something like a social, I still won't bother. As an independent contractor, I'm careful who I give that out to, as well. I want nothing to do with states like Florida and Texas having a flip-out over somehow realizing in 2023/4 there's adult content on the Internet, and I'm good not volunteering myself for whatever states intend to do with the info of those who access it.

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That being said, I would "prefer" if my Second Life and "Real Life" names and personas aren't both publicly tied together, but one day that will happen anyway when I want to perform my own music in SL on streaming video. 

I just don't want to moderate myself in SL due to being employed in RL, etc. 🙂 It won't matter when I am closer to retirement.

Paranoid? No, not really. Just trying to be a "happy medium" realist!

 

While supposedly only available to LL, if you have payment info on file, they already connect your SL account to your RL info.  I would think people would be more leary of that info being breached yet a LOT of SL users have no issue with that.  If you process credit, they have even more info.  Are Tilia and LL any more secure than any other company?

Edited April 20 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

While supposedly only available to LL, if you have payment info on file, they already connect your SL account to your RL info.  I would think people would be more leary of that info being breached yet a LOT of SL users have no issue with that.  If you process credit, they have even more info.  Are Tilia and LL any more secure than any other company?

I was less concerned about "breaches" and security issues than for example, if I inadvertently connect my SL with a Social Media platform such a Facebook or something, and someone "outs" me before I am ready.  

One way this could happen is if I were to start posting on my RL Facebook or Threads account, etc. something like "my SL name is Love Zhaoying".  Or more inadvertently, if I were to post "public" pictures on a Social Media platform that I also have in SL or here. Anyone using TinEye or a similar platform could do a reverse image search to find "who I am".  

[Feorie Frimon]

32 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Even if LL somehow knows who I am in RL, I don't think they'll care about my kinks or personal stuff like which bits I wear. So, no matter what happens with "verification", I'm ok with it because as the saying goes, "there's no shame in my game".

I wish I could say the same thing. 
Tilia employees used my personal information to creep on my LinkedIn account. 
 

Be very careful. 

[Love Zhaoying]

Not that I ever plan to be a "Second Life Celebrity", but plenty of people have their RL and SL names connected on purpose and "out there". 

So, my comments earlier on it are mostly because one day I plan to purposefully have my RL and SL names connected and public. That makes it more "my choice" than anything, and isn't really part of the topic being discussed unless it becomes "forbidden" (because of TOS) or "dangerous" (because of all the pitfalls) to do so.

[Feorie Frimon]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Not that I ever plan to be a "Second Life Celebrity", but plenty of people have their RL and SL names connected on purpose and "out there". 

So, my comments earlier on it are mostly because one day I plan to purposefully have my RL and SL names connected and public. That makes it more "my choice" than anything, and isn't really part of the topic being discussed unless it becomes "forbidden" (because of TOS) or "dangerous" (because of all the pitfalls) to do so.

Mine aren’t connected. In any way. And haven’t been for almost two decades. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

15 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

As pointed out above by @Coffee Pancake this is an interesting quote from the Lindens ...

"Child avatars should not be used to access or be near regions which have (or also have) adult-rated content / activities"

I think none of us have an issue with the section I bolded. But accessing or being near regions with A-rated content? That's every M-rated sim in SL. As others have said, and I'll use. a specific example ... you can't walk into a furniture store like Apple Falls now with/wearing/as a child avatar? Every piece of furniture sold is both PR and A rated. Access or near are awfully vague words. Stick to G-only?

Can't figure out the intent or how to enforce this at all.

(The vaguely child-like avatars will now have to get out of the M-rated clubs with adult furniture now. That'll be a nightmare for owners, if you think the current fear and banning is harsh, it'll get stricter I guess. Or maybe the intent of LL is to open up a heck of a lot more A-rated land to live on, de-populating mainland even more? Who knows.)

If it's "adult-RATED" it shouldn't be on M-RATED regions at all. I'm making the RATED bold and in red because it's apparently very hard for some people to see.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

I personally could be tracked all across the internet, i use one email address everywhere. The feds could build quite a dosier on me if I ever came into their radar…

or maybe i already have. 😬

Sooner or later everyone will be surveilled 24/7 anyway, as Solzhenitsyn said, its all one giant prison, the only difference is which side of the fence you are on