Diversity and Inclusion in Second Life

[Rowan Amore]

23 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Exactly. But as with other things, possibly some type of mitigation should be possible. 

Not pretend it doesn't exist. (Like CP and AP..)

I propose that the specific issue has most likely always been in SL - so there is nothing new being discussed on that topic.

Does it impact "actual diversity"? If it keeps "actual" women away, yes (by my own flavor of common sense).

Who is pretending it doesn't exist?  I know there are all kinds of things out in SL.  I avoid that which offends me.   

Vore exists in SL.  It doesn't affect me in any way.  Misogyny offends me.  I don't let it affect me.  It's not up to LL to remove or even acknowledge that which might offend someone.  There would be nothing much left in SL if they did.  Someone is offended by blacks, Muslims, child avatars, really tall people, really short people, furries, etc.  Something is always in some way going to be offensive to someone.  

As far as Women's day goes?  Again, if it's mostly men in SL,  maybe that's why LL doesn't bother?  (sarcasm and laughter)

 

Edited April 11 by Rowan Amore

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If I didn't make it clear enough I'll say it again, we don't usually know the race, gender, mental or emotional state of the people behind the avatars. Some female avatars are played by men in RL. Others are played by actual women in RL. If these people get off by seeing women being abused or by portraying being abused in SL, that's their business,...as long as their business isn't hurting Linden Lab's business.

Sure...it's their business. However, I want it to exist behind closed doors in the same way we control public sexual behavior.  I, and many others, don't log into SL to see violence in public.

Aside from that, we need to examine why there is so much violence against women here. Even with the 'roasting in the oven grinding people up for dinner 'peeps, it's always the women served up for consumption.  We should ask, we should investigate....why is that?  Is there anything (on a deeper level) we could do to change that mindset, in any world.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

Who is pretending it doesn't exist?  I know there are all kinds of things out in SL.  I avoid that which offends me.   

I didn't mean that you, or anyone in particular does pretend it does not exist.

I meant "LL on a cultural level"; if we were to "elevate" misogyny to the same seriousness of the things that ARE addressed, then it probably would be to. (Somehow. Like, take reports of it seriously, not just "dispute between residents".)

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

12 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If these people get off by seeing women being abused or by portraying being abused in SL, that's their business,...as long as their business isn't hurting Linden Lab's business.

I would imagine it is honestly. As a woman, I've thought about getting rid of my premium account a lot lately. 

And...I think it does hurt Linden Lab's business...excessive violence and abuse of women prominently displayed.  @Persephone Emerald

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Vore exists in SL.  It doesn't affect me in any way.  Misogyny offends me.  I don't let it affect me.  It's not up to LL to remove or even acknowledge that which might offend someone.  There would be nothing much left in SL if they did.  Someone is offended by blacks, Muslims, child avatars, really tall people, really short people, furries, etc.  Something is always in some way going to be offensive to someone.  

This is definitely a popular opinion! 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Where is this prominently displayed?  I would have to actively seek out regions if I wanted to see sex and violence.

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

If I want to give some food to a hungry person who has little food I am not discriminating against a person with a full fridge by not providing food for them too.  I'm simply helping the disadvantaged person.   This is what diversity and inclusion actions hope to achieve -- to help the person with less.

Off-topic. People in SL don't need to eat.

See if you can find an analogy that is actually about Second Life.

How about, if you want to give lindens to someone, this doesn't hurt somebody else who has plenty of lindens. You aren't taking their money. You aren't raiding their fridge.

Especially with the food analogy, their is so much wasted food that can be shared with those who need it. Nobody needs to go hungry so that others may eat. Maybe this is true for money too, but it's still not relevant to SL.

Edited April 11 by Persephone Emerald
Spelling

[Love Zhaoying]

Welcome to Page 8!

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Where is this prominently displayed?  I would have to actively seek out regions if I wanted to see sex and violence.

I'm just setting out boundaries for the discussion. Not saying I see it everywhere.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I didn't mean that you, or anyone in particular does pretend it does not exist.

I meant "LL on a cultural level"; if we were to "elevate" misogyny to the same seriousness of the things that ARE addressed, then it probably would be to. (Somehow. Like, take reports of it seriously, not just "dispute between residents".)

But misogyny, while offensive, is not again the law nor the LL ToS so what are we to report?  A group?  A specific person acting out a misogynist role?   The venue that caters to it?  I'm honestly at a loss as to what people expect LL to do about any of this.  The only thing specifically disallowed is the AP and that's because it IS against the laws in RL.

If you allow one thing you dislike to be banned, where do you draw the line?  How many people have to complain until LL bans something?  What if it's something most people couldn't care less about but there's a vocal minority that it bothers?   BDSM offends some people.  Gor offends others.  One is a huge community in SL.  Without them, would SL still be viable? 

Careful what you wish for people is the last thing I'm saying on the subject.

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

If I want to give some food to a hungry person who has little food I am not discriminating against a person with a full fridge by not providing food for them too.  I'm simply helping the disadvantaged person.   This is what diversity and inclusion actions hope to achieve -- to help the person with less.

Off-topic. People in SL don't need to eat.

See if you can find an analogy that is actually about Second Life.

I was responding to someone referencing RL situations though, so I responded in kind.

[Persephone Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Welcome to Page 8!

If you wanted an active thread, you got it.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But misogyny, while offensive, is not again the law nor the LL ToS so what are we to report? 

This is what I meant by:

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

if we were to "elevate" misogyny to the same seriousness of the things that ARE addressed

How? If it ("online portrayal of misogyny"??) WERE to become against the law - I guess in California, at least, then LL couldn't allow it to happen. If it were categorized as "illegal pornography". Just one possibility I am throwing out in response to your question, not that I think it could or would happen.

 

[Paul Hexem]

20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Example potential "issue" where SL could theoretically do better:  Parcel owners can decide who to allow / discriminate against.  This could be for any reason, or no reason. Women, PoC, LGBT+..can all be on the "not allowed list".

I'm not sure how LL could do that better without getting into this territory where I can grief you and then say "I'm PoC, you can't ban me". It's an extremely fine line they have to walk.

[Rat Luv]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

If you wanted an active thread, you got it.

Just like a soup in a pot 🍯

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Welcome to Page 8!

If you wanted an active thread, you got it.

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm not sure how LL could do that better without getting into this territory where I can grief you and then say "I'm PoC, you can't ban me". It's an extremely fine line they have to walk.

Then, still - the difference with AP/CP is that it's representation is explicitly against the law..

Sorry I keep harping on that, but it's the only example I have at the moment where LL says, "don't do THIS". I'm sure y'all can provide other examples.

 

[Paul Hexem]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Then, still - the difference with AP/CP is that it's representation is explicitly against the law..

Sorry I keep harping on that, but it's the only example I have at the moment where LL says, "don't do THIS". I'm sure y'all can provide other examples.

Sure, LL could start trying to enforce discrimination claims like the legal system does, too. They'll be bankrupt in about 7 seconds. Those claims last years and cost millions to sort out.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Sure, LL could start trying to enforce discrimination claims like the legal system does, too. They'll be bankrupt in about 7 seconds. Those claims last years and cost millions to sort out.

Or...

..

..if the economy were to go more towards "renters", then responsible Land Owners can enforce things "as they see fit". Someone complains to a land owner, land owner can kick out the club / homeowner, etc.  They aren't banned from SL, just kicked out of that land they are renting (by the land owner).  

..just an example scenario. Not "kick the can down the road", but more: "Ok LL, you say this is a 'dispute between residents'..then we can have arbitration and enforcement by 'resident owners'."

 

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Or...

..

..if the economy were to go more towards "renters", then responsible Land Owners can enforce things "as they see fit". Someone complains to a land owner, land owner can kick out the club / homeowner, etc.  They aren't banned from SL, just kicked out of that land they are renting (by the land owner).  

..just an example scenario. Not "kick the can down the road", but more: "Ok LL, you say this is a 'dispute between residents'..then we can have arbitration and enforcement by 'resident owners'."

 

As short term solution, letting landlords sort it out sounds good. But now they have to hire people to spend time doing that, and land costs just went up 8,000%. Plus the moment one of them does the thing they're supposed to mediate, it's back on LL again.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

As short term solution, letting landlords sort it out sounds good. But now they have to hire people to spend time doing that, and land costs just went up 8,000%. Plus the moment one of them does the thing they're supposed to mediate, it's back on LL again.

I think the general question of "discrimination exists, what should be done?" is kind of off-topic.

"Misogyny" SEEMED more on-topic since it could be seen as anti-diversity.

But in reality, the fact that we all "went there" means the answer to my original (restated) question of "How is SL doing with Diversity and Inclusion?" is: not as great as some would hope. 

I do appreciate @Rowan Amore's approach of "avoid it".

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

But now they have to hire people to spend time doing that, and land costs just went up 8,000%.

Nah, small landlords will just use their judgement. Hire people? They are too cheap. 

Just my opinion.

The sky is not falling with every little change.

ATA (and then again):  What happened to the "free market economy"? Why can't people "just go to OpenSim/OSGrid"? lol!

Edited April 11 by Love Zhaoying
go to, not to to

[Persephone Emerald]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the general question of "discrimination exists, what should be done?" is kind of off-topic.

"Misogyny" SEEMED more on-topic since it could be seen as anti-diversity.

But in reality, the fact that we all "went there" means the answer to my original (restated) question of "How is SL doing with Diversity and Inclusion?" is: not as great as some would hope. 

I do appreciate @Rowan Amore's approach of "avoid it".

Yeah. Discrimation exists. Racism, misogyny and other things we may not like are part of SL, because people here have more freedom to act like jerks and a-holes here than they might have in RL or on other platforms. We can't change people. We can't ban everything we don't like. We can't even control what LL does internally or in SL.

If by "How is SL doing with Diversity and Inclusion" you mean how are we the users doing, then yeah, not great.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

You do all realize that a lot of men in those black supremacist groups aren't actually black men in RL?  Some white men make black male avatars because white female avatars often have a specific fetish in regard to black males so they have upped their chances of getting some SLex by quite a lot.    Interestingly, a lot of those white females are also piloted by...white men.

As far as the misogyny goes, SOME women allow it and actively look for it.  Sometimes, we can be our own worst enemies.  

3 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

 

It is a wonder there is any white men playing white men then since so many are playing women and black men. Maybe all of SL are actually white men playing various alternatives and there are no real women at all.....other then the ones in the forum of course and they are too busy in the forum to go inworld

And maybe black males are playing white males for all the supposed advantages they get for being white! And the educated white females are playing ....lesbians! It's a wonder except in reality I think mostly the men playing as females are now coming out as chicks with *icks except the odd one who has plastered over his/her profile that they will not answer any IM's from men! Like they might get the cooties if they even look at one. And of course they go on and on about how men are misogynists so no one mistakes them as one! Maybe that's how we can identify the ones playing alternative genders......but what if in RL they identify as being transgender? Are they actually considered male or female for the purposes of virtual? Does any male who cross dresses as a female avatar really to be considered male anymore? Maybe they are just in denial and they will eventually come out as I've known a few to over the years.

So confusing

[JUSTUS Palianta]

This whole thread seems like aggravating people just for the sake of it.

Edited April 11 by JUSTUS Palianta