Diversity and Inclusion in Second Life

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I think the niche groups that make virtual homes in SL are, in general, more accepting and inclusive than the average population anywhere on earth.

While not disagreeing, I'll add - perhaps those groups are in some ways "more visible" as they have no reason to "hide" in Second Life.

I think a lot of RL people are some of these accepting and inclusive "niche groups" but, their voices are quiet for whatever reason.  Spread out in the never-ending Rural landscape (lol).

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You're so darned quotable, I made a separate post in case you were to miss this in an edited response! Yes, my original desire to cover this today could be since my own company sent a company-wide DEI email about disabilities (a panel discussion entitled, "The 'Why' Behind Disability Education").

Yeah, and disability and accessibility initiatives and education are super important in the workplace, so I'm glad companies are striving to be better in those areas.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

1 hour ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I think the niche groups that make virtual homes in SL are, in general, more accepting and inclusive than the average population anywhere on earth.

I dunno. It's banned in Belli so I rarely see it anymore; but on mainland there are plenty of places where you will see two neighbors with opposing ideologies with a pile of angry signs on their plots pointing at the other parcel.

SL just seems more civil now because so many of us have opted for parts of SL where they are rules against being the usual sort of people we find online. But I suspect if we got rid of the rules in Belli, within a week's most of us would have angry signs and glowing prims pointed at each other's lots.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

34 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

on mainland there are plenty of places where you will see two neighbors with opposing ideologies with a pile of angry signs on their plots pointing at the other parcel.

SL just seems more civil now because so many of us have opted for parts of SL where they are rules against being the usual sort of people we find online. But I suspect if we got rid of the rules in Belli, within a week's most of us would have angry signs and glowing prims pointed at each other's lots.

 

Oh you have been by my place on Zindra have you?  But in my case, you are only half right, its just my neighbor across the street that has the angry signs.

Oh and cannons too, anyone can fire a cannon at my place, too bad for my neighbor though, across the road is the next sim over, plus im pretty sure no object entry stops his cannon balls at the  edge of the road, so he might as well be shooting blanks, like so many that suffer from acute  TDS.

😂

Edited April 10 by BilliJo Aldrin
spelling

[BilliJo Aldrin]

The problem with DEI is that what you are is more important than what you know. 

And thats all I’ll say on that topic 😬

[LittleMe Jewell]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

How would you rate Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Second Life?

 

As a Single White Female (in SL -- married in RL), I highly doubt that my opinion on this really matters much.  The opinions that really matter are the people most impacted by DEI.

Edited April 10 by LittleMe Jewell

[Luna Bliss]

19 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The problem with DEI is that what you are is more important than what you know. 

And thats all I’ll say on that topic 😬

You're misunderstanding the dynamic.

When I needed to hire people to complete major jobs in SL there were many, many qualified people to choose from....all types of people.  If I cared about those who are more disadvantaged in SL or RL I'd choose a person to work for my company that was from a disadvantaged group.  I'd make that choice from many, many qualified people belonging to all sorts of groups (blacks, whites, gay, straight, poor, wealthy....on and on).

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

You're misunderstanding the dynamic.

When I needed to hire people to complete major jobs in SL there were many, many qualified people to choose from....all types of people.  If I cared about those who are more disadvantaged in SL or RL I'd choose a person to work for my company that was from a disadvantaged group.  I'd make that choice from many, many qualified people belonging to all sorts of groups (blacks, whites, gay, straight, poor, wealthy....on and on).

Unfortunatly I don’t misunderstand at all….

boss i have this amazing applicant, years of experience, amazing references, he is just what we need.

What is he? Oh he is a white male?

Nope, we have too many of them , so tell him sorry, and go hire the best candidate that checks off all the boxes we need to check off, we don’t want to be accused of being non inclusive.

😂

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You're misunderstanding the dynamic.

When I needed to hire people to complete major jobs in SL there were many, many qualified people to choose from....all types of people.  If I cared about those who are more disadvantaged in SL or RL I'd choose a person to work for my company that was from a disadvantaged group.  I'd make that choice from many, many qualified people belonging to all sorts of groups (blacks, whites, gay, straight, poor, wealthy....on and on).

Unfortunatly I don’t misunderstand at all….

boss i have this amazing applicant, years of experience, amazing references, he is just what we need.

What is he? Oh he is a white male?

Nope, we have too many of them , so tell him sorry, and go hire the best candidate that checks off all the boxes we need to check off, we don’t want to be accused of being non inclusive.

You're assuming the white male is automatically superior to all others.  In reality, so many others are just as qualified as the white male, so why not give the job to someone who needs a heads up?  I almost always hired women for my jobs in SL.  Not always, but usually.

Edited April 10 by Luna Bliss

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

You're assuming the white male is superior.  In reality, so many others are just as qualified as the white male, so why not give the job to someone who needs a heads up?  I almost always hired women for my jobs in SL.  Not always, but usually.

I’m not assuming that at all, but if  hiring was totally blind, and you ended up hiring all white guys, you’d be accused of racism.

but but but i just hired best qualified each time, i can’t help that they were all white.

Thats no excuse, now go hire some people from disadvantaged groups and stop being so racist.

Is ability itself perhaps racist?

That opens a whole can of worms that I refuse to discuss in here.

🙄

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I’m not assuming that at all, but if  hiring was totally blind, and you ended up hiring all white guys, you’d be accused of racism.

but but but i just hired best qualified each time, i can’t help that they were all white.

Thats no excuse, now go hire some people from disadvantaged groups and stop being so racist.

Is ability itself perhaps racist?

That opens a whole can of worms that I refuse to discuss in here.

🙄

You're basing your argument on a faulty premise and an unrealistic imagined scenario.

But yeah, i think we're done here.

[Persephone Emerald]

I think the terms refer mostly to a workplace. Linden Lab seems to have the Diversity part down for gender and sexual orientation, maybe not so much for race, age and disability.

We don't really know though. Strawberry Linden is Indian-American or Pakistani-American I think. The IT security woman who got fired and sued LL was Muslim-American too.

 

"How are we doing" reminds me ironically of Elmo asking how people were doing. It might be a touchy question for some of us.

(Btw, when people play a different race than they are in RL in RL, it's not considered a good thing.)

 

I love how diverse SL is, but I think this is a result of the freedoms we have as users here, not the result of diversity and inclusion training.

I don't love the racism, misogyny, and some other elements, but it's better than having too much censorship. 

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

You're basing your argument on a faulty premise and an unrealistic imagined scenario.

But yeah, i think we're done here.

what is the faulty premise and the unrealistic imagined scenario?

You have basically said its ok to discriminate against white males in order to give others a “chance”.

DEI is basically racist, there is no way around it.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I’m not assuming that at all, but if  hiring was totally blind, and you ended up hiring all white guys, you’d be accused of racism.

but but but i just hired best qualified each time, i can’t help that they were all white.

Thats no excuse, now go hire some people from disadvantaged groups and stop being so racist.

Is ability itself perhaps racist?

That opens a whole can of worms that I refuse to discuss in here.

🙄

Race aside, DEI also applies to age, veteran status, disability status, gender, religion, orientation, etc., so I'm not sure a company having a majority of a single race or gender would be a problem, as long as nobody was discriminating against them for being too old/too young, having a disability, being a vet, etc. AND as long as nobody was reading resumes and auto-trashing the ones with female names - for reasons.

Again though, I dunno how we can discuss this unless we know LL's hiring and employee training and development practices, and I don't know squat about that.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yeah, and disability and accessibility initiatives and education are super important in the workplace, so I'm glad companies are striving to be better in those areas.

I do think SL itself could come up much higher for those with physical and mental disabilities. The steep learning curve already implies that there is a severe lack of virtual assistive technologies to make it easier for those needing such.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

6 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I think the terms refer mostly to a workplace. Linden Lab seems to have the Diversity part down for gender and sexual orientation, maybe not so much for race, age and disability.

We don't really know though. Strawberry Linden is Indian-American or Pakistani-American I think. The IT security woman who got fired and sued LL was Muslim-American too.

 

"How are we doing" reminds me ironically of Elmo asking how people were doing. It might be a touchy question for some of us.

(Btw, when people play a different race than they are in RL in RL, it's not considered a good thing.)

 

I love how diverse SL is, but I think this is a result of the freedoms we have as users here, not the result of diversity and inclusion training.

I don't love the racism, misogyny, and some other elements, but it's better than having too much censorship. 

 

 

 

When a company says we are no longer going to hire the best of the best, but are instead going to hire someone based on DEI criterion, it is NEVER a good thing.

There are too many white airline pilots so we are going to be more inclusive, even if it means lowering our standards

Umm no thanks, i think I’ll drive

[Persephone Emerald]

Just a reminder. The topic is about Diversity, Inclusion and Equity in Second Life. Discussing how this dynamic at Linden Lab affects its perception within SL might be relevant, but we don't really know the diversity makeup of all the Linden employees.

Discussion of Diversity, Inclusion and Equity practices in RL is off-topic and likely to get this thread locked.

Edited April 10 by Persephone Emerald
typo

[Love Zhaoying]

Oh great, the usual suspects came in to ruin another thread. And, I created it to get away from their shenanigans!

Second Life has "ultimate diversity" - the fact they do this with aplomb is proof positive!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I do think SL itself could come up much higher for those with physical and mental disabilities. The steep learning curve already implies that there is a severe lack of virtual assistive technologies to make it easier for those needing such.

I completely agree with you on this! I actually don't know a whole lot about what's currently available in that space (I should dig through viewer options to see), but anything that pushes tech forward in that area would be great for us to have.

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Race aside, DEI also applies to age, veteran status, disability status, gender, religion, orientation, etc., so I'm not sure a company having a majority of a single race or gender would be a problem, as long as nobody was discriminating against them for being too old/too young, having a disability, being a vet, etc. AND as long as nobody was reading resumes and auto-trashing the ones with female names - for reasons.

Again though, I dunno how we can discuss this unless we know LL's hiring and employee training and development practices, and I don't know squat about that.

Don't feed hate and ignorance, please!

[Perrie Juran]

I really do miss Torley Linden. Years ago he wrote in another thread in the Forums:

"In my head, I've long heard varied voices that inform my life choices. They span a rich spectrum of genders, races, etc. It was only natural that I express them as avatars — earlier, I used the term "Torley Council", or there's that joke from some Residents, that when they see me, they go "It's a Torley!" Hahahaha.

I have a very strong female voice that emerges here. She encourages me to be more sensible and explanatory (I used to be terse and not all that social), and it feels 1000% natural to me. Not having that would feel strongly repressive, and so with SL as an outlet — or whatever you want to call it — I've been able to unify my personality and feel a lot healthier in both lives as a result.

It is a difficult thing that, while life in general appeals to a diversity of people, many people's interests are in conflict. This is also true in Second Life, and I continue to be a proponent of responsible disclosure in relationships that matter to you. On top of that, there's insecurity that people keep hidden, not to mention jealousy and other "demons" that drag someone down from acknowledging and living the life THEY really want... in the process they become control freaks trying to prevent OTHERS from feeling fulfilled, as Darrius initially mentioned.

The psychology of it intrigues me deeply. I just hope more people can come inworld and use Second Life as a tool of confronting hangups and dealing with their baggage, so they have healthier relationships with others. Not growing means not really living."

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Just a reminder. The topic is about Diversity, Inclusion and Equity is Second Life. Discussing how this dynamic at Linden Lab affects its perception within SL might be relevant, but we don't really know the diversity makeup of all the Linden employees.

Discussion of Diversity, Inclusion and Equity practices in RL is off-topic and likely to get this thread locked.

Yes.

DEI is about much more than just hiring practices -- something, in regard to LL anyway, that we know nothing about in any case.

I think a more interesting and relevant issue is how (or if) issues such as representation and diversity are reflected in LL's management and marketing of SL. That's something we can talk about.

There is of course the other thing that makes SL somewhat unique: that "representation" among RL users is not the same thing as representation in-world. Both are relevant:

• Does SL do a good job of signaling its inclusiveness, as a platform, to POC, members of the LGBTQ+ community, women, etc?
   
• Does representation in-world reflect RL diversity, or are there impediments to that?

My sense is that there are far more POC in SL now than there were when I started. Or at least more people representing as POC. Does that reflect conscious strategies on LL's part? Is it the result of a broader range of products available for diverse representation? And if the latter, is that because there is now a market for them that there wasn't at one time?

Edited April 10 by Scylla Rhiadra
Clarity

[Zalificent Corvinus]

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You're assuming the white male is

There is a new Star Wars game on the way.

The "community manager" at the games company talk the way you do, she's decided that they don't want the game to appeal to white males. Her comments on social media, are so toxic and filled with "DEI Fanatic" rhetoric, that realistically, they will be lucky if ANYONE buys the game.

And maybe look up the foaming at the mouth employees of "SBI", a "DEI Consultancy" for the games industry, who's DEI advice has caused dozens of titles to flop, and destroyed at least two games dev companies.

 

One of the franchises I have enjoyed playing is the "Saints Row" series. the company that made those games, hired SBI to advise them, the result was that SR5, simply promoted as an un-numbered "Reboot", had literally no references to the previous games, other than the title, and the characters of the "Saints" were a "PC DEI Woke Joke".

 

Preppy college grads, paying of their student loans by being criminals and urban mercenaries. The leader, your player character is about as believable as a 5 foot tall 85 lb teenage girl being head of the FBI, a rocket scientist, and  basketball champion, at the same time.

 

the game bombed, you can buy it now, if you're desperate, for pennies, and the company that made it, went under.

 

One bunch of missions in that last instalment of urban crime gang themed games, was about actual criminals, cosplaying as fantasy warriors, in cardboard armour with foam rubber weapons.

I enjoyed the previous games, because you could create your own character, your own way, and kickback with some fun. "SR DEI Edition" just tried to deliberately SUCK all the fun out of the franchise, while pushing it's "message".

A series I really enjoyed, destroyed by people who talk the way you do about this stuff. "Weaponised Fairness" that's become UNFAIR!

I prefer the old "unfair" versions that were  much fairer, and a lot more fun.

 

 

[Persephone Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes.

DEI is about much more than just hiring practices -- something, in regard to LL anyway, that we know nothing about in any case.

I think a more interesting and relevant issue is how (or if) issues such as representation and diversity are reflected in LL's management and marketing of SL. That's something we can talk about.

There is of course the other thing that makes SL somewhat unique: that "representation" among RL users is not the same thing as representation in-world. Both are relevant:

• Does SL do a good job of signaling its inclusiveness, as a platform, to POC, members of the LGBTQ+ community, women, etc?
   
• Does representation in-world reflect RL diversity, or are there impediments to that?

My sense is that there are far more POC in SL now than there were when I started. Or at least more people representing as POC. Does that reflect conscious strategies on SL's part? Is it the result of a broader range of products available for diverse representation? And if the latter, is that because there is now a market for them that there wasn't at one time?

I'm inclined to agree that there are probably more people of color in SL than there were 10 years ago. I base this on the YouTube videos I've seen by SL users.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Ah yes.

Gamergate 2.0