Gabriele Graves Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) Hi All, There has been much talk about security systems and their associated problems, either real or perceived. One thing that comes up often is that many people find it really difficult to move around mainland with fear of being suddenly sent home by a zero-second orb if they may accidentally stray onto someone else's land. One sentiment often expressed by travelers is that they would prefer banlines because those are at least viewable and potentially avoidable. Land owners might also prefer to use banlines if it weren't for the fact that putting up banlines for everyone only affects people up to 50m above the terrain. So I decided to do something about it instead of just participating ad-nauseam in the arguments for and against the way people achieve their mainland privacy. The result is a freely available, simple to use security system just for mainland that addresses these issues. Technically an orb but it only uses banlines to implement it's security and the banlines go up all the way for everyone. It does not do teleport home. It does not send messages to anyone including any to inform the system owner of who it raised the banlines for. It will always be free, I will never attempt to monetize it in anyway. It is copy/mod/transfer except for the scripts which are copy/transfer only. This is really only to stop people claiming this as their own work. People are free to pass this along to anyone who wants a copy. This system only works on mainland, not private regions, not Bellisseria. How does it work? Firstly, it's simple. Once an avatar enters the region where your land is, they are automatically added to the land banline list. When they leave the region, they are removed from the land Banline list so that the system can cope with unlimited avatars. There only needs to be as many available places on the land banlist as the land can concurrently host avatars for it to ban everyone that comes by and the list currently supports 300 places. So no worries on that score as all mainland regions are a long way below that number for how many avatars they can hold. Due to the fact that unwanted guests have been added by name to the land banlist the banlines go will all the way up just as they are supposed to. What happens if they teleport directly to your land? The system will eject them as part of the ban that happens immediately. This is the only circumstance where they will be able to get on your land for a tiny amount of time. If you block teleport routing on your land options, even this will never happen. So the rest is up to us, all of us mainlanders to spread the word and the system to as many people as possible who are currently using the nuclear option of zero-second orbs that teleport people home which are not detectable and hope they will see the benefit of changing over. This is not a solution for those who want to keep their land open to other people in anyway. It's never going to be. It's an attempt to give an alternative to the nuclear option for those who just don't want any uninvited guests at all. This system is available, for free, on my marketplace store here: Graven Hearts Mainland AutoBan System on Marketplace I hope it makes a small step towards stepping away from the nuclear option. I will support the system with assistance and bug fixes as necessary so feel free to send me an IM or notecard inworld, which ever you prefer. My messages don't get capped and do go to email. To the moderators: I hope this is a good place to put this but feel free to move it to a better section if you feel it needs it. This is the only area that seemed to fit. It's not a commercial product and I will never charge anyone a bean for this. I just like to make things as nice as I can. Edited January 21 by Gabriele Graves Altered wording around banlist places available and added wording about not sending messages 3 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eowyn Southmoor Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 This sounds a lot like a certain anti-bot orb currently becoming very popular on mainland which is supposed to ban bots but doesn't seem to work at all. Instead it just bans you from a parcel as soon as you enter a region - even if you're standing on protected LL land such as a road. If these devices are on multiple parcels in a single region, as is currently the case in Satori, then you're suddenly presented with endless tracts of banlines either side of the road, and constant system messages saying "You have been banned from blah blah blah". Frankly it's really damn annoying. These kind of devices should be limited to the parcel they are trying to secure - not just scanning a whole region. Wouldn't it also mean that other people living in the same region are also going to be instantly added to the ban list, thereby forcing them to see banlines (if they are close enough), and also subjecting them to the same ban message? I really hope it doesn't work in the same way - that anti-bot orb should be taken off the MP, it's clearly faulty since it basically adds everyone, regardless of whether they are a bot or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: This sounds a lot like a certain anti-bot orb currently becoming very popular on mainland which is supposed to ban bots but doesn't seem to work at all. Instead it just bans you from a parcel as soon as you enter a region - even if you're standing on protected LL land such as a road. If these devices are on multiple parcels in a single region, as is currently the case in Satori, then you're suddenly presented with endless tracts of banlines either side of the road, and constant system messages saying "You have been banned from blah blah blah". Frankly it's really damn annoying. These kind of devices should be limited to the parcel they are trying to secure - not just scanning a whole region. Wouldn't it also mean that other people living in the same region are also going to be instantly added to the ban list, thereby forcing them to see banlines (if they are close enough), and also subjecting them to the same ban message? I really hope it doesn't work in the same way - that anti-bot orb should be taken off the MP, it's clearly faulty since it basically adds everyone, regardless of whether they are a bot or not. Hi Eowyn, let me try to address your concerns: My system isn't any kind of anti-bot device at all. It doesn't spam anyone, it doesn't send any messages to anyone. Not even the owner of the system is informed about who it has detected and raised the banlines for. The device is limited to the parcel that it is used on only and only scans the region to pre-emptively raise the banlines for each avatar. The people who see the banlines are people who would have been banned by the zero-second orbs anyway but they wouldn't have had any way of knowing. If you are a certain distance away from the banlines, you would likely never know as previously discussed because they aren't visible. I tried to create this to be less problematic and more visible to travelers. Consider this, if there was no scripted orb ability but just banlines, there would be many more banlines around. Instead we just have a majority of silent and random zero-second orb behaviour. Surely that cannot be preferable. So it comes down to a choice, do we want to see where we are not allowed to go or not? There are pros and cons to both. It would be funny if the argument came down on the side of zero-seconds orbs though. UPDATED: The anti-bot orb system you are talking about cannot be my system. Until literally a few hours ago, my system was not available to anyone at all other than me. I forgot to address that part in my reply originally. Edited January 21 by Gabriele Graves Added update 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Just a tiny note of possible tangential interest: "There only needs to be 40 available places on the land banlist for it to ban everyone that comes by" is presumably based on the maximum number of agents in a Mainland region. For most of Mainland that limit is actually 44 now (possibly to include the Premium "bump"? not sure when this changed from 40), but it can vary. For example, at the moment it's 66 in Lusk, 55 in Crumbi, and 33 in Eagan and Jaffee for no apparent reason. Scripters can check it readily with llGetEnv("agent_limit") perhaps triggered on CHANGED_REGION. Of course this is totally tangential; I haven't had a chance to look as the unit itself yet, but certainly applaud any effort to reduce friction on Mainland. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Just a tiny note of possible tangential interest: "There only needs to be 40 available places on the land banlist for it to ban everyone that comes by" is presumably based on the maximum number of agents in a Mainland region. For most of Mainland that limit is actually 44 now (possibly to include the Premium "bump"? not sure when this changed from 40), but it can vary. For example, at the moment it's 66 in Lusk, 55 in Crumbi, and 33 in Eagan and Jaffee for no apparent reason. Scripters can check it readily with llGetEnv("agent_limit") perhaps triggered on CHANGED_REGION. Of course this is totally tangential; I haven't had a chance to look as the unit itself yet, but certainly applaud any effort to reduce friction on Mainland. You are correct. It would need 44 places but obviously that's just fine too. It can use the whole banlist if necessary. UPDATE: I reworded the OP based on your feedback. Edited January 21 by Gabriele Graves Added update 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 i like that you making an effort to help address this perennial issue 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said: Once an avatar enters the region where your land is, they are automatically added to the land banline list. When they leave the region, they are removed from the land Banline list so that the system can cope with unlimited avatars. Oddly enough, I was actually considering modifying a copy of my customised orb script to pre-emptively ban anyone entering the region who was OUTSIDE my parcel, since I don't want it banning my invited guests, and I was thinking of a 24 or 48 hour temporary ban. I put the project on hold, since on reflection I decided it wouldn't really stop the constant over-entitled whining about the exitance of private property. 4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said: people as possible who are currently using the nuclear option of zero-second orbs that teleport people home which are not detectable and hope they will see the benefit of changing over Not sure there IS a benefit, to be honest. The people who constantly whine about being punted for home invasion will constantly whine that they can't invade homes, AND constantly whine about "ugly 5km high ban-line towers ruining their exploring", AND constantly whine that they don't see the 5km ban-line towers in time to steer round them anyway. See, it's already happening. 2 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: If these devices are on multiple parcels in a single region, as is currently the case in Satori, then you're suddenly presented with endless tracts of banlines either side of the road 2 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: Wouldn't it also mean that other people living in the same region are also going to be instantly added to the ban list 1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said: So it comes down to a choice, do we want to see where we are not allowed to go or not? There are pros and cons to both. It would be funny if the argument came down on the side of zero-seconds orbs though. No, they want to be ALLOWED to go where they are NOT ALLOWED to go. That's the "solution" they want. This won't stop them constantly whining, just change what they constantly whine about. Still, thank you for trying. I hope it works out better than I suspect it will. Edited January 21 by Zalificent Corvinus 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eowyn Southmoor Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 The point of my post was to point out some possible side effects that would effect non-trespassing people, such as other parcel owners in the region, or people who stick to public areas, and nothing more. Since (as i said in a related thread) I almost never run into banlines or orbs, because I almost never deviate from protected or abandoned land, it doesn't bother me personally which method is used, and I have always supported residents ability to protect their private property with whatever method they want. I personally have no issue with 0-second orbs and never have. I also never claimed that this device is the same as the anti-bot device either, i said it "sounds" like it, because seemingly they work in the exact same way - pre-emptively banning people who have never trespassed. As for not spamming messages, this is, in reality, the annoying part. Supposedly, the other device I mentioned doesn't do that either. The ban messages are apparently LL system messages you receive when you get added to a parcel ban list in a region you're currently in. I'd be interested to know if that is indeed the case, because these messages can't be selected in your chat in the same way that object messages can - so far it's not been possible to identify the source of the message in the usual way one would. So if your system will work without local chat being flooded by any kind of message, then that's fine. Finally, considering I've never once complained about either banlines or orbs, either on these forums or in-world, I don't appreciate being labelled as being part of a group who "constantly whines" just for pointing a few things out and trying to seek some clarification, especially as in general, I've always agreed with most of the points of view expressed by you both. I don't speak enough generally here or in-world to be labelled a whiner Anyway, good luck with it! 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 45 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: Finally, considering I've never once complained about either banlines or orbs, either on these forums or in-world, I don't appreciate being labelled as being part of a group who "constantly whines" just for pointing a few things out and trying to seek some clarification, especially as in general, I've always agreed with most of the points of view expressed by you both. Some things you just have to get used to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: Finally, considering I've never once complained about either banlines or orbs, either on these forums or in-world, I don't appreciate being labelled as being part of a group who "constantly whines" just for pointing a few things out and trying to seek some clarification, especially as in general, I've always agreed with most of the points of view expressed by you both. I don't speak enough generally here or in-world to be labelled a whiner Anyway, good luck with it! Wait..are you "whining" about being accused of "whining"? ..Is joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: The point of my post was to point out some possible side effects that would effect non-trespassing people, such as other parcel owners in the region, or people who stick to public areas, and nothing more. If they are not intent on trespassing, being banned from the area they weren't going to trespass on doesn't affect them. They see the regular ban-lines as they pass by already, seeing temp ban-lines as they pass by is NO different. 2 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: I don't appreciate being labelled as being part of a group who "constantly whines" just for pointing a few things out Really, so you didn't say 2 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: The point of my post was to point out some possible side effects that would effect non-trespassing people 6 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: Wouldn't it also mean that other people living in the same region are also going to be instantly added to the ban list 6 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: then you're suddenly presented with endless tracts of banlines either side of the road Those sound like complaints to me, pointing out non-existent side effects. And complaining that non-trespassers will be banned from places they weren't going to trespass on, is another complaint about a non-problem. And complaining about what was the phrase "endless tracts of ban-lines either side of the road". "Oh those POOR non-trespassing neighbours, instead of seeing ban-lines, they will see ban-lines, something should be done about this terrible injustice of seeing ban-lines instead of ban-lines!" Edited January 21 by Zalificent Corvinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Does one REALLY need to get something engraved upon their heart to use the system? That sounds painful. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: As for not spamming messages, this is, in reality, the annoying part. Supposedly, the other device I mentioned doesn't do that either. The ban messages are apparently LL system messages you receive when you get added to a parcel ban list in a region you're currently in. I'd be interested to know if that is indeed the case, because these messages can't be selected in your chat in the same way that object messages can - so far it's not been possible to identify the source of the message in the usual way one would. Yes, they're system messages and this orb sends them too. Anyone entering the region at any point who would be on the ban list will just see "You have been banned indefinitely," and then "You have been removed from this land's ban list" when they leave the region. That will include other landowners. Edited January 21 by Theresa Tennyson 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I wonder if there are viewer settings that affect this whole behavior. Just testing manual and scripted addition of an alt to the land banlist, he does not get that system message on (the PBR alpha) Firestorm, but he also doesn't see the banlines until the first time he actually bumps into them, then they appear as normal for a while (less than a minute) before they disappear again until the next time he bumps into them. Could be some unusual viewer preferences, or maybe something weird about being an owner of the group that owns the land from which he's being banned, or a change in viewer functionality, or god knows what, but it's not as I'd expect, for both better and worse. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I'd like to try this device to see how it actually works, but I don't have a Mainland parcel. Would it work in a sandbox or in group-owned land, or does it have to be on land the owner of it owns? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Marques Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) This new orb sounds promising. Thanks for creating it and for making it available for free. I got a copy of it on the MP and rezzed it one of my Mainland parcels, then used the HUD that comes with the orb to enable it. I put up ban lines by turning off the "anyone can visit" land setting (not sure if it's necessary or not, but I did it just in case.) Then I watched as all other people who were in the region popped up in the "Always banned" list, and were removed from it as soon as they left the region. So it seems to work. Interesting. When I tried to test it with my alt (Charles Marques), for some reason it did not work, not sure why. When my alt TP'd into the region (not into the parcel but a nearby spot) he did not get added to the "Always banned" list like other people were. I might have done something wrong, but that is something I was curious about. (Worked) I will leave this new security orb set up here temporarily for those who want to test it/see how it works. Feel free to visit (and hopefully get banned lol ) Location: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Clement/144/196/56 I recommend TPing to a spot nearby (for instance: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Clement/140/166/57) and trying to walk or fly into my parcel. Let's see how it goes. Edited January 21 by Clem Marques 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvia Tamalyn Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 6 minutes ago, Clem Marques said: When I tried to test it with my alt (Charles Marques), for some reason it did not work, not sure why. When my alt TP'd into the region (not into the parcel but a nearby spot) he did not get added to the "Always banned" list like other people were. I might have done something wrong, but that is something I was curious about. I wonder if that behavior has something to do with the alt being a member of your land group? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Marques Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said: I wonder if that behavior has something to do with the alt being a member of your land group? This parcel has never been group owned, it's owned by me directly. So I'm not sure. However, the alt is listed as an owner in the groups I usually use, maybe that played a role somehow. Edited January 21 by Clem Marques 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 minutes ago, Clem Marques said: This parcel has never been group owned, it's owned by me directly. So I'm not sure. However, the alt is listed as an owner in the groups I usually use, maybe that played a role somehow. If you have Rez objects under land group ticked, that might be it, also. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Marques Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said: If you have Rez objects under land group ticked, that might be it, also. Worked now! Thanks. Disregard what I said about the alt not getting banned. Edited January 21 by Clem Marques 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I tried on the Clement parcel, first with Cool VL Viewer which showed (red) banlines from a useful distance as I approached the parcel, then I tried again with the current Linden (PBR) viewer which behaved more like the PBR Alpha Firestorm viewer, only showing the banline when I bumped into it, and then only for a while. Neither of these sent a scary system message, so I'm not sure how to get that (unless standing on the parcel when the ban is set, probably). I could try another viewer or two but I wonder if anybody else gets this behavior of needing to bump into the parcel before a banline appears, or possibly know of a viewer setting that makes the banlines appear without hitting them first. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I wonder if there are viewer settings that affect this whole behavior. Just testing manual and scripted addition of an alt to the land banlist, he does not get that system message on (the PBR alpha) Firestorm, but he also doesn't see the banlines until the first time he actually bumps into them, then they appear as normal for a while (less than a minute) before they disappear again until the next time he bumps into them. Could be some unusual viewer preferences, or maybe something weird about being an owner of the group that owns the land from which he's being banned, or a change in viewer functionality, or god knows what, but it's not as I'd expect, for both better and worse. In Firestorm, under the 'World / Show More' menu, one can: Hide Ban Lines Show Ban Lines On Collision Show Ban Lines On Proximity I tested with an alt (alt is in land group, land is owned by land group, alt was manually added to the ban list). i.e. This test was only testing viewer settings related to seeing ban lines, not testing anything related to the security device (the device was not rezzed). As to the security device: I tested with an alt that is not in the land group and she did not get any messages in chat when she was added to the ban list, nor when removed from the ban list. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Marques Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Neither of these sent a scary system message, so I'm not sure how to get that (unless standing on the parcel when the ban is set, probably). 6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: As to the security device: I tested with an alt that is not in the land group and she did not get any messages in chat when she was added to the ban list, nor when removed from the ban list. I did not get any messages or notifications either when my alt was added and removed from the ban list. Using Firestorm. Edited January 21 by Clem Marques 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: In Firestorm, under the 'World / Show More' menu, Thanks! Yeah, that's it, same in the Linden viewer and I had "On Collision" set in both. In Cool VL Viewer there's just View / Ban lines which I had checked, so that all matches. Edited January 21 by Qie Niangao "Cool VL Viewer" not just "Cool VL" because it matters I guess 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 6 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: The point of my post was to point out some possible side effects that would effect non-trespassing people, such as other parcel owners in the region, or people who stick to public areas, and nothing more. Since (as i said in a related thread) I almost never run into banlines or orbs, because I almost never deviate from protected or abandoned land, it doesn't bother me personally which method is used, and I have always supported residents ability to protect their private property with whatever method they want. I personally have no issue with 0-second orbs and never have. I also never claimed that this device is the same as the anti-bot device either, i said it "sounds" like it, because seemingly they work in the exact same way - pre-emptively banning people who have never trespassed. As for not spamming messages, this is, in reality, the annoying part. Supposedly, the other device I mentioned doesn't do that either. The ban messages are apparently LL system messages you receive when you get added to a parcel ban list in a region you're currently in. I'd be interested to know if that is indeed the case, because these messages can't be selected in your chat in the same way that object messages can - so far it's not been possible to identify the source of the message in the usual way one would. So if your system will work without local chat being flooded by any kind of message, then that's fine. Finally, considering I've never once complained about either banlines or orbs, either on these forums or in-world, I don't appreciate being labelled as being part of a group who "constantly whines" just for pointing a few things out and trying to seek some clarification, especially as in general, I've always agreed with most of the points of view expressed by you both. I don't speak enough generally here or in-world to be labelled a whiner Anyway, good luck with it! Hi Eowyn, I'm sorry I didn't get to this sooner, I had to sleep and then go to work I completely understood the point of your posts and was just trying to cover my bases with my response. I didn't take your post in any way negative or accusative at all. I didn't label you in any way, I hope you can realise that. I know full well that you have share with a lot of the sentiments that I've do. The "thanks" I placed on Zalificent's post doesn't mean I agree with it all. I don't agree with any of the parts with regards to you. You are definitely not a person that "constantly whines" in my opinion. This is the problem with "thanks" and "like" though. On the topic of pre-emptively banning. I don't see how this is different to someone unticking "Allow anyone on my land" or whatever it is called. In effect, my system works almost exactly the same way that those banlines already work. When you use the land banline system, you are in fact banned before you even visit the region and certainly whilst on that region. It's only the visual aspect that changes with distance. During my testing, I didn't see any messages from the LL ban system on my testing alt. It is possible though that in the dim and distance past, I have turned off that notification. I will check later when I am able to go inworld. If I did, I've never seen any downsides to doing so and suggest that others do the same. It's a small price to pay in my opinion and I doubt that anything can be done about it. In the end no solution is perfect, I understand that but I'm hoping that this will still be better than no a zero-second orbs. I am open to discussion on ways that this can be improved as I really want this to be a positive thing rather than negative. Thanks for your well wishes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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